Hello texas ...

I'm no consultant and work in the landscape industry not the nursery end ... kindly disregard whatever I have to say.

I'm fairly confident though that trying to size up anothers business from the outside looking in is a RISKY undertaking.

It's even more dangerous to assume you can step into the niche and make profit just by "being in the right place".

The very few small speciality growers I know started small .. made a name for really knowing their material ... and in the building years had an alternative source of income.

"Loans" most new to business have a hard time getting loans and very often it is a good thing since they often spend it the wrong way.

"I never saw how they stayed open in the first place since they sold the same thing that every other nursery in town sold."

Perhaps it is because the common stuff is what sells ?? ... and yeah I agree ... a rare plant is cool .. I like to collect plants too .. but if someone else has a busy highway location and can sell a hundred easter lillies to your one rare plant how much more do you need to charge ? How much will someone pay for that plant ? Can YOU get them to buy that plant ?

"I see nurseries all around here shutting down."

Keen observation ... but maybe your conclusion is a bit hasty ? The competition here seems brutal.

"Is this doable? "

Well ... that depends as much on your abilities and resources then your idea .... Can you make it work ?

"What do you think? "

Maybe you should start with the single green house ?? Every business I know has a promotional stage ... during this time it's best to keep overhead low ... expect small profits ... and study your market ( your potential customers ) and get know your product. I call it the pre business stage ... your in business but your really testing an idea or hypothesis .. let's say. The goal of this stage is to answer the question "Is it doable ??" for yourself.

BIG business can hire various consultants and study the market ect. ver carefully .. they can't skip the promotional stage but their insight is adequate for getting other people to invest their money and share the risk.

Before entering this stage .. though ... write out a simple business plan .. try to achieve it in the promotional stage.

If you can't gross 5K in a single spring .. How do you expect to gross 500K or more ??

I think the promotional stage is when really good ideas emerge or don't emerge ... don't commit to a business idea for life .. test it .. and retest it... don't get too attached to it. The business of anything is not the thing itself.

Make your business work for you ... if it can't plant collecting may be a better choice as a hobby for you.

Again .. please excuse my ignorance.

Good Luck.

Good Day ...

Start with your current salary and add the cost of the benefits you have to that. Also add the ssi matching funds that your employer now pays because you'll have to pay it all. That is how much you have to net to match your current income.

Add the annual cost of design and maintenance of your web page, the greenhouse, the credit card arrangement, etc,..

Then you have to add the cost of everything that goes into producing those plants (the ones that sell and those that don't).

Now divide all of those costs by the price per plant that you believe you can sell them at. How many plants must you sell to match your income? Is that reasonably doable?

The danger in your business, all plant production business, is that you have the cost of production and maintenance of your material and it has a shelf life. In other words you have to go through the expense of producing a product before you have buyers and you have to find buyers before your product degrades. That is a lot of overhead for something that won't keep.

Right .. but still there will be no absolute answer for you since still how will you know what is doable ?? .. so your initial promotional stage may involve growing a small number of plants and attempting to sell them at some price each in a given amount of time ... keeping track of ALL your expenses and losses and experiences. Start small.

Ofcourse there are consultants but they cost MONEY and still there is no substitute for experience.

Good Day ...

OK, if I sold 6,500 plants per year I could retain my present income. That is selling them at a price cheaper than I've seen sold anywhere else. The problem with doing the single person enterprise on a trial basis is that the single person deal requires an online store. (Since these are plants that are not in high demand locally but are in demand online since there are so few sellers). I would not want to put my name on an online store for a trial basis. If there weren't enough plants to cover demand then it would reflect very badly on the store. Also, while I can get a hundred plants ready in my spare time, I cannot get thousands. Not while working full time at my present job.

I have no way of predicting how many of these plants could be sold by a new nursery (no track record) online. Believe me, I know how to do a breakeven analysis and how to work spreadsheets and all of that. I just don't know where to get the numbers that would be needed to plug into the equation.

On the other hand, it would require a great deal more than 6,500 plants being sold to make an "along the highway" nursery profitable. But I think it is doable. There are no "good" nurseries in this area. The closest one is 2 1/2 hours away. And by "good" I mean a nursery that sells plants that do well in the heat here in Texas instead of the plants that Lowe's sells no matter what region they are located in.
And yes, I know that you can't tell how profitable a nursery is just by looking at it from the inside, I haven't seen the books of any of the really good nurseries that I am talking about, but I do know that they have customers in December when the nurseries that sell the same old stuff do not have many customers even in the spring.

Is there anywhere I can go that would have numbers on what can be expected from the first couple of years of running a nursery if it is run right? Is there any book on nursery management that is available at a reasonable cost?

I'm one of those east coast plant nuts. And I live near some of the premier gourmet nurseries in the country. Some are in financial trouble others are not. The success seems tied to business skills and not to plant rarity. You can shop at one of them and you see a lot of lantana and phlox heading out the door and not many amorphophallus'. I believe many specialty nurseries rely heavily on their online shoppers - so online is very important. The underlying fact that doesn't seem to be included is that the really successful nurseries do a lot of promoting themselves and their plants. A full calendar of speaking engagements and lots of magazine articles - all of which pump up the hype of their latest creation or discovery. They don't follow trends, they create them. Most of these success stories have over 20 years of backbreaking work behind them. You can't just start out on top.

Well, you could produce 100, set up an online store, when you get an inquiry - reply that due to high demands you have sold out and you will respond to them when the next crop is marketable, and then you might have some idea if anyone is interested or not.

You are right, John, some of the good nurseries that I was talking about do have speakers and classes. And they do sell a lot of common plants. I know that if I set up a nursery along the highway that at least half of my business would come from locals looking for these common plants. This may sound naive of me, but I think that if the customers walked in and saw, or smelled, some of the plants that do well in this area that have never been seen before, they would get excited about them and buy a couple.

Does anyone know much about the ebay stores? Some of the people who sell on ebay have their products listed under Dave's Garden. I haven't really looked into it, but this may be a way to get my feet wet without losing my shirt.

You buy a 25 cents tie at an estate sale and sell it for 85 dollars on E Bay. Anyone can grow plants.

I was just going to suggest Ebay. I'm a plant collector too, and I quit my job 5 years ago to stay at home with my mom who had several strokes. I'd always wanted to start a nursery and now I'm doing it. I knew I wouldn't be able to just jump into and I knew I wouldn't be able to get a loan. But a girl's gotta eat.

So I've started out slowly, collecting more and more plants. I really want to specialize in daylilies, but I sell anything from my gardens that has multiplied enough to be divided.

I build some of my stock from the Walmart and Lowes clearance racks. Just recently I bought an ENTIRE rack full of healthy plants for $20 at Lowes. It had an assortment of plants, but about 2/3 of it was perennial, which I've been selling on Ebay.

Right now, all the money I make goes right back into the business. And I'm not making as much as I would like. But I am building up a customer base and a reputation. People are referring their friends.

I do have an ebay store. The cost for rent is $16 a month and they now let us have 300 depts (categories) in our stores. (They used to only allow 30.) Store listing fees are about 3 cents per listing per month. So if you listed 100 items in your store for a month, your rent and fees would be a total of $19. Then you pay an 8% commission (I think) on what you sell.

The store is quick and easy to set up, and just about everyone I know checks ebay before going anywhere else.

Your store will not be profitable in the beginning. You'll have too many supplies, postage, restocking, and other expenditures. And it will take a while to build up the business to a lucrative venture. You won't be able to just jump right into Ebay or any other store and start profitting $1000 a month. It could take years actually to see real profit, because most of your earnings go right back into the business.

So I suggest you keep your job as you build your business. It honestly will not be too much for you if you manage your time. It will take a while for you to get really busy. So when you open your store, you can state that you ship only on Sat., if that's the only day you can get to the p.o. Build up the business before you quit your steady job. Once the business is going, you'll find that you need to work it 70 hrs a week. I work at least 70 hrs week with my little business and can't afford to hire anyone to help me. You'll work harder for yourself than you do at a "real" job. And your vacations will be centered around your garden business. I don't take vacations during the summer because there's no one here to tend the business, weeds, watering, etc.

So start out small and gradually grow into your business. Let Ebay do most of the work for you. You'll be able to attract the folks who seek rare plants. I know most people here in my town want the plants they are familiar with. That's why the local nurseries who have been in business for years sell the common stuff. It's in great demand. My rare plants and named daylilies are "pretty", they say, but they don't want what they don't know. And they don't wanna pay extra for something unusual. Ebay helps me reach serious collectors.

Good luck. It's a lot of work, but for me, it's more like "playing in the dirt." I'm happiest when I'm dirty.

I was going to suggest eBay too. And you MUST read "So You Want to Start a Nursery" by Tony Avent. I've read it cover to cover and it tells you all the nuts and bolts of running the business.

Do you have any sort of upscale farmers' market or flea market in your area? I tried a small plant business this way and discovered that I could sell one or two really cool rare plants a week to the plant nuts. I could sell the same ol' plants to anybody as long as I matched or beat the price at the big box stores. Problem is, I can't make any money that way.

I ended up working for an interior landscaping company to get my "plant fix". The owner deals with all the selling and money headaches, I just care for the plants. I'm happy.

"The first decision most people make when entering the nursery business is actually a decision that should be one of the last to be made. They base a decision about what to grow upon what they like, not necessarily upon what they can sell."

Here is a link that might be useful: SO YOU WANT TO START A NURSERY

perhaps I'm not getting it.....

you say you can sell 6,500 plants and make your current salary.
if you sell them for $10 a peice (which will be hard) that grosses out at $65,000.
just a shot from the hip having spent a handful of years in this industry, I figure that means it'd have cost you $35,000 or so to have done that.

$30,000 profit. Impressive eh?
heres the problem with this simple math.
every nursery owner here that's grown only 6,500 plants and sold them all, please raise your hand.

*******taps his foot impatiently************

ok, right. heres how it really happens:

season 1
lets say you want to offer 100 different plants, a fair amount.
lets say you grow 10 of each, thats 1000 plants.
well, first year in business you sell 120 of these plants.
that leaves 880 plants in 4inch pots that are overgrown, and it's fall. You can't carry these over until next year and sell them online otherwise quality will stink. You haven't cultivated a wholesale customer base, and you seem to dislike roadside nurseries.
so instead of growing 1000 fresh plants in that greenhouse of yours you are growing 1000 cramped 4inch pots with 880 1gallon plants.

season 2
big boom in business, you sell 400 of those 1,000 plants, and its fall again. you hunted long and hard for a wholesale 'dump off point' but alas, you still have 600 of them, and now 600 overgrown 4inch pots that need to be potted, 880 (or so) of the old 1gallons that are painfully overgrown, and 1000 cuttings to root for next year.
you now have a full time job for very few plants. You've also been so busy growing plants you don't have time to develop wholesale connections.

you're tired, you're overextended, you're too broke to advertise, and some jerk two states over is selling your plants for $3 less per plant on the net.... not to mention those $10 plants are now being sold on ebay in bags for $1 a peice (they might not live, but it's a year of sales taken from you).

ok, thats enough of that, but it was an example.
Go meet a million people, you need to be able to diversify your sales. I grow fairly rare plants, but I have plants brokers that are willing to buy 80% of them should they be overgrown, I've also got a handful of trade shows, festivals and retail outlets to hit. Do NOT limit yourself to the internet. The internet is a very fickle customer, extremely prone to whims and it is based one finding the lowest price.

what is rare today is common tomorrow.

Drew

OK, OK, I get it.

What I don't understand is how you all are in the business if it is so unprofitable.

I want to start a business. Period. What am I good at? Rooting plants. Also good at growing plants.

And I just happen to have some that are new to the US. Somebody, somewhere, is going to make a profit off of getting these out into the marketplace. Why not me? And while I'm at it, why not also sell some other plants that are rare enough that I have never seen them at any nursery anywhere. These are plants that do really well here - most plants don't. Isn't that how Northhaven in Dallas started?

Let's say they don't get sold in the one gallon pot. What's wrong with moving them up to a 5 gallon? Then bigger. Then if those don't sell, then they would be sold to landscaping companies that need really big plants.

I know it would take a while to become profitable, but at 29 years old, I've got 30+ years to devote to it.

I also don't see how a really good nursery in this area could fail when all of the gardeners here are forced to drive 2 1/2 hours away to shop for plants.

$10 each is a reasonable price since every plant I'm talking about goes for $15 - $75 online.

Well, from your last post maybe you still don't get it--yet. Identify your market, then meet that market. Have you talked to anyone and found out why the factors you cite, such as the long drive, exist? Maybe these conditions indicate there is an opening for you to exploit--or maybe they mean there isn't a chance of succeeding, due to some factor you have not heard about. Talk is cheap, go out and talk to people in the business there in your area. Shaking hands and shooting the breeze won't make you desperate, unlike sinking thousands into building up an inventory that just sits.

Many people, like me, have had a regular job while getting our businesses off the ground. So we worked 40 hrs a week for someone else and 30 or more hours a week for ourselves to build our customer base and inventory. So again, I suggest that you not quit your day job IF you must pay your bills.

The first year or two, MOST businesses report a loss. They invest more into the business than they get out of it. So what you really must ask yourself is: Do you have the time and the capital to build your business? Do you have enough savings to get you thru the first few years? Can you work your business while working a 40 hr a week job? Or can you afford to give up your salary, altho you may not see a profit in your business for two years? Many businesses fail the first year due to unreasonable goals and expectations. Evaluate and plan. This is your future you're creating.

I don't think any of us are trying to discourage you, but rather to give you the cold hard facts based on experience. You don't want to quit your job and then have to fold your own business within a year because you aren't making any money, spent all your savings, maxed out your credit cards, and need to get another job so you can eat. The cost of living is high. And the cost of doing business is higher. Can you afford the cost?

Also, remember that plant sales are seasonal. Most people buy a lot of plants in the spring and in the fall. Sales drop off in the summer and die almost completely in the winter. What do you have as an off-season seller? How will you get thru the low-sales periods?

If you MUST pay rent/mortgage, eat, pay household expenses, etc., you probably shouldn't quit your job immediately. Start the business and see how it grows. When you've saved up some money, and the business becomes a full-time job, then consider quitting the job to devote all your efforts to the business. But test the waters first and see how the market reacts.

By the way, what kind of rare plants would you build your business around?

According to Avent's book, many retail nurseries would close if they did not have a Christmas shop to carry them over until the next year. And a friend who has a still marginal (after many years), part-time rare plant nursery told me Avent recently remarked in an interview (or whatever) that a long-growing plant-buying bubble has finally burst, that is plant sales that have been building for years may start to fall off now. Likewise, a local garden center worker told me gardening is no longer the number one hobby, it's place having been taken by "eating in restaurants"(!). (The TV sure does seem to have a high density of ads for elaborate pizzas, mountainous sandwiches and similar concoctions).

texasshine,
how am I in business if it is so unprofitable?

here is an example:
gross sales per year DR nursery:
wholesale plants: $20k
retail plants: $10k
shows/fairs/markets: $10k
internet sales: $5k
landscaping/irrigation work $60k

this totals $105k dollars, looks pretty good for a one man operation, tho take home is probably closer to $35k a year. Each area has it's benefits. Landscaping/irrigation work is the fastest turn around on a dollar. If I spend $3k monday, I can turn it into $6k by friday night.
The internet is has the highest margin of profit, but it only works because I have a way to rid the overgrown plants. Retail sales and shows are in the 40% profit range. Wholesale sales make sure I am not throwing away thousands of plants a year.

other pro's and cons of retail and internet is it fluctuates rapidly, in any given year they can double/triple or be a fourth of what they were the year before.

what I'm saying is diversification of sales, and you will need a cash cow (in my case contracting work) to get you through. In theory I could stop growing plants tommorow and my take home would probably be roughly the same.

being in business also means EVERYTHING costs more. Your phone bill will double in price simply because it's a business phone, the banks accounts, lines of credit, plates for your business vehicle, etc.

just don't fall into the mindset of:
"I've got a plant I can root for free, spend $.25 on a pot and dirt and sell it for $10"

that doesn't mean you made $9.75 that means you probably made more like $3-$4 on the plant. Find your hidden costs before they find you :P
even a greenhouse, look at the plastic, every 3 years you will replace it for $300. Thats one more thing that is a $100 a year bill.

ohhh and get a damn good accountant, and learn to like stimulants.

Drew

... then there is the rare plant collector that trips over a rare plant and breaks a hip bone ... all of a sudden lawyers are more attractive then rare plants. Ofcourse you will have insurance to cover that but is the aggravation really worth it ?

It must be a lot of fun growing rare plants ... but growing and the business of growing are not the same thing .. I know several gardeners that have not only left the business but gardening for pleasure as well.

Good Day ...

often true in my own case:

"The best worker bee often doesn't run the best hive."

"What I don't understand is how you all are in the business if it is so unprofitable. "

We all are .. where we are ... if you earned a job you have to go to work to keep the job ... if your self employed you have to run your business ... this does not mean one is better then the other ... it's a classic case of the grass is greener situation ...

We all think owning it all means more money ... by far it's not true .. you have to make the money and hold on to it ... it's no guarantee ... you can invest every nickle to your name and not gross dollar one .. Who cares ? .. No one just you !! ... everyone else has the same idea as you and when it does not work out prices get slashed but cost keep going up ... you start to understand or appreciate ( believe it or not ) how giant companies like Wallmart don't want to part with a buck.

Everyone wants a piece of the action .. you get the last piece. Before you know it 15 years go by and you still are not making it big and you ask ... How much longer can I do this stuff ??

but we are all free to try ... my advice ... think hard before going in ... it's NOT EASY ... it may take 5 or ten years before you develope your own insight into the market ... look for a better way before jumping in ... IT"S NOT A HOBBY ... money needs to be factored in ... not just what you like.

What's your edge ?

If you go in thinking everyone in the market is blundering and you know how to makeit all work and you have no real time business experience then you are going in VERY cocky ... better to be humble.

Check out a book "The E Myth" by Gerber. It's well worth reading before making the move. Take it with a grain of salt but it's a good read.

Good Day ...

When I started researching the idea of a green industry business I had a hard time finding real data to evaluate. The numbers are out there but you often have to pay big bucks for them. And things change very quickly in business. I still see articles for business ideas that are out of date or washed out when they were a bonafide hit last year (probably when the article was written). The reality is that how people spend their money and why they spend their money is constantly changing and very hard to pin down and analyze.

I now work full time and sell my plants and garden decor part time at the local flea market (its one of those mega huge markets) because I didn't want to be responsible for customers on my property. My first eye opener is that in reality very little product actually moves - I have never sold out of anything. I sell a lot of any one thing but never is it a complete sell out. On a good day I might sell a third of what I took to market and that is only if the weather is perfect and the market weekend falls near the first and the fifteenth of the month (pay days). So my original scheme of grow a ton of "this" and sell the heck out of it never materialized. Success isn't really about what you are selling or how rare it is, its about knowing what your market is and how to present a product in that market place in such a way to make the most money possible and how to adapt to failures along the way.

Thank you for all of the advice you have given.
I saw my cousin this weekend (22 years old and running a large, profitable wholesale business which his family bought last fall) and he mentioned that he never wants to see another plant. I love my garden too much to risk losing this hobby.
So I am going to look into other ways of going into business for myself, hopefully I will find one with much larger profit margins. :)
I am willing to work hard. Matter of fact, that's why I want to open my own business. I am sick and tired of putting in an 8 hour work day and only actually working for 4 or so. I make a decent living but feel that much more could be made by working 12 hours and actually earning the money by doing things instead of looking at a clock. I have a degree in the sciences and an MBA - didn't mention this early in an effort not to sound cocky. Matter of fact, neither one of us are "worker bees", and we are both pretty darn good at running hives!
If any of you know of small businesses that are doing well for people who don't mind doing whatever they have to do to make them work then let me know.
Seriously, I have gone through every business that I know of and they are either 1) unavailable at the moment or 2) too dependent on factors out of my control, like oil prices or the economy. I would love some other ideas.
Thanks again,
Texas

three things always paying well for super hard workers... always in need of more experienced people.

Diesel mechanics, Electricians, and A/C repair/HVAC.
you can make as much as your willing to spend in time.

Texas, there's much more to life than making a bunch of money. If I'm going to spend 12-18 hrs a day doing something, I want it to be something I love.

That's why I chose plants for a career. I'm not rich by any means and may never be, as far as money is concerned. But I enjoy almost every minute that I'm working. I get high on it. It's sometimes challenging, always rewarding, lifts my spirit, benefits my physical, mental, and spiritual health.

What you need to do is to decide what you want to do for the rest of your life--not what job you'll make the most money at. You're still very young right now. Take this time to try out different jobs and see what suits you. Try out VERY different jobs and compare what you like and don't like about them. Eventually, the right career for you will reveal itself.

I also have a college degree and was destined to spend my life in an office setting. But I decided to give other jobs a shot. I ended up working with a construction company where I was a carpenter's assistant and a landscaper for about 7 years. I worked outside in the sunshine all day learning something so completely different from what I ever thought I'd be doing. And I discovered I loved it. I love building things (even built my own home) and I love growing things. Altho I could make more money being an office administrator, I would hate it. It would stifle my energy and creativity.

If you want to do the nursery idea, there is nothing wrong with starting out slowly. Do it part time while working your regular job. Slowly build your business up until you can quit your day job and focus completely on your business. No business you fall into is going to be successful overnight. It's going to take years to build any business up to profitable. But make it a business you'll actually enjoy.

And all are going to be subject to oil prices etc. Doubt you can find anything that is guarenteed not to be vulnerable to outside influences.

This is the best thread to come along in a while. The advice, personal experiences and insights are priceless. Indeed, if you were hire a consultant to tell you what these folks have given for "free," you would need that hefty line of credit mentioned in the list of start-up expenses.

My small contribution: If you pick a product as your business line, choose something non-perishable. Instead of plants, consider hardscape materials or other items that don't die, overgrow their containers or require a lot of care or maintenance. My fiance has been an established landscaper for years. When we discussed whether to add a nursery to our focus, he adamently insisted that if we're going to sell or produce anything, he'd prefer rock and stone "Because you don't have to water or repot it, and you can go away and lock the gate and not have to worry about it dying."

Plus as a landscape contractor he would have noticed that all the money is in hardscaping and not in planting. That's why so many projects are dominated by terraces, fountains, waterfalls and boulders. You can get people to shell out for those. Planting often appears as a sort of afterthought, artless and almost frivolous, like a parsley garnish on a plate of food.

That's so true. There's a nursery here that just started a big contracting supplies branch to its operations, and my guess is that it will surpass the retail and re-wholesale nursery in income sometime in the next few years.

Hi, I am bumping this up to see if Texasshine is still out there and, if so, if they ended up in the plant business or not...just wondering and thought this was an interesting thread.