mental illness/medicine use questions wouldn't get you anywhere... (like people never lie on applications)

how about tranquilizer darts?

craziest dude I ever had working on my crew was a guy named 'scotty'
guy knew everything.... we left him alone to cut up some trees and we came back to a chainsaw in a box (he was fixing it). Literally... just parts in a box. his response "it's a peice of sh*t."

he also liked to capture water moccosins by hand, and had fascinations with all things dangerous and poisoness.... talk about an insurance liability.

so until further notice... the only guy allowed in my company to be nuts is me

You don't need to ask about mental health issues per se. YOu can ask how they handled a situation when they had a conflict with someone or when they were feeling upset but had to work. You can ask about their temper. You can ask if they have ever been in a physical fight. You can describe a scenario that is very unfair and ask how they would respond.

Some thoughts about how to approach it in interview, anyway.

Sounds like he had a fight with his girl friend and was having a bad day. Also, he has anger management problems. Unless he has lengthy conversations with himself - in two different voices, I wouldn't say he is mentally ill.

He is, however, not someone you would want working for you because 1. if angry enough he could snap, causing harm. and 2. workers like that look very unprofessional and are not the best way to promote your business to your customers or the public.

There is a standard of professionalism for any kind of work, whether it's white-collar or blue-collar.

I like okanagan's interview questions a lot. If they can articulate intelligent answers to those, they are probably not too prone to totally flip out.

As for asking medical history/medication questions, I'm not sure that's even legal. As a job candidate, I personally would find it offensive. Some people with mental illness can function quite well on the appropriate meds, much better than without the meds. I needed to take antidepressants for about a year and a half a while back - I'm OK now - does that mean you wouldn't consider hiring me?

Most candidates using legal or illegal meds would probably lie anyway.

I probably would have insisted that he leave immediately after he flipped out. I would call the police if necessary. OTOH, if a 6 foot 6 guy is standing next to me with a blunt object, I'd be inclined to smooth things over a bit, at least until I could locate some full body armor.

That must have been scary. Glad you're OK!

Sounds like you did the appropriate thing in the appropriate sequence. Refuse to leave? Anybody who worked for me and would flatly refuse to do what I asked them to do would be terminated. And like you, if he wasn't a threat to others, I'd have also waited until he was calmed down. If somebody isn't balanced, whether momentarily or as a matter of course escalating their anger isn't a good idea.

However, the safety of your other crew members is your responsibility, and most likely even his safety is your responsibility. If he was threatening, I would have called the authorities.

I used to do the hiring of hourly employees at one facility, and I was instructed to simply ask potential job candidates if there was any situation or condition they knew of what might make them unable to carry through with their job responsibilities. Of course they can lie like rugs, but when they sign their applications on the dotted line, if they do/did falsify their applications they had already agreed it was grounds for possible dismissal.

I don't know what it is anymore with inability to control anger. Sometimes the reactions of seemingly sensible people are totally inappropriate to the situation. I've witnessed cashiers used as whipping posts to foul mouthed and aggressive customers who seem to think an employee in that position can actually change company policy.

I read this forum every once in a while even though I'm just a gardener because my sister owns a landscape company and I send threads her way.

Anyway, I'm a middle school teacher, and students like this are called ED (Emotionally Disabled) and I've got to say, they're the ones you're referring to. They get set off over little or nothing and any employer is right to fire them...after they've calmed down the next day. Be careful - I have to be. They've gotten this far because everyone else thus far in their lives have been forced to put up with their crap. I've been threatened, had a student threaten my children because he's seen me picking my kids up at daycare (i.e. I know where your kids are)...I've put in for a transfer to an elem.

Steer clear! If they're young, contact the high school they graduated from, the teachers will gladly tell you what they think. If they're lazy and mouthy in class, they'll be that way in adulthood.

Just my two cents

In the states, it's illegal to ask any kind of personal question on a job interview. Age, health, marital status, number of children, plastic surgery--anything. You can, however, check references and prior employers. The latter is only allowed to give dates of employment and salary levels. They can't tell you if the prior employee was fired or quit. In other words, it's a crap shoot.

Dope. My daughter is employed by one of our countries largest companies. Due to medical conditions she doesn't drink alcohol or smoke weed however she is broadminded. What stuns her is the number of fellow employees that are virtually permanently stoned thoughout the day. At breaks they smoke dope. These are all in their 20s,30s. And they become quite emotionally unstable over time.
Same happens in the kitchens I supply where some chefs moan about staff sniffing the nitrous oxide they use.
Where has this unethical, unreasonable and unreliable behaviour come from? Who knows but it sometimes makes me think they should be extras in the "Dawn of the living dead" type of movies. They would fit in well.
There are nutcases but IMHO most of it is through substance abuse. These folks are not nice to be near and certainly dangerous to employ.

Yep: kids today! Who did they learn their habits from, anyway? I think somebody smoking pot on lunch break etc. is doing it because they are "unstable" in the first place, and is not going to develop 'Reefer Madness'.

I have one such fellow who's just manic enough to make life miserable I'd say. I'm with an interiorscaping business meaning we babysit plants in commercial settings and guarantee free replacements if we kill them. This basically puts us at the mercy of the maintenance technicians whim. My 'attitude dude' gets moody when asked to do something out of the norm, stomps off, squeals tires etc.. he obviously has anger management problems. He's good with plants but he comes off as needing either a caffeine or nicotine fix in my opinion and that's exactly what I tell him to do: "Time for a smoke break John...". Other staff don't want to work with him and because the owner avoids confrontation, termination is rarely an option unless we have a back up technician trained and ready to replace him. I on the other hand although left to run the business and expected to keep folks in line have no power to terminate and so I'm forced to make due. I do what I can by re-arranging his schedule to keep him away from people and give him replacement deliveries. Needless to say I get complaints from clients prefering someone else to do the replacements. It will take the serious loss of a major contract before the owner steps up to do his job. This is what I must deal with daily. Don't even get started on the white elephant who's been with us for 12 years and stretches her hours! I will definitely use some of those interview questions listed here.

I think that there are an aweful lot of them that are prescribed medication (whether they need it or not). I am amazed at how many people will 'matter or factly anounce that they are "bipolar" or have some other disability. We have been beaten over the head for so long that we need to accept every kind of behavior as a "disease". If you don't, you are insensitive. Meanwhile, insurance companies keep paying for Doctor Feelgood to medicate anyone and everyone. The insurance rates go up to cover it. Everyone is making money and everyone is happy.

We should have known it was over when drug companies started to advertise on tv. They show a pill and don't describe what it does (or else they need the ten minute speed talker to list the disclaimers). Then they tell you to ask the doctor if it is right for you. When did it go from doctors diagnosing and prescribing to patients finding medicines and asking doctors if it is "right for them"?

Are these 2 subordinates making life miserable for plantladyott, or is it really the owner--who has put her in the middle--that is the problem? I have personal experience with a non-participant owner who expected me to run things without giving me the power to do so. Maybe you need to have a little chat with the boss about responsibiity and authority.

Ask for references from previous employers and call them and ask about the person your thinking about hiring! That is perfectely legal to do.

Sure, it's perfectly legal to ask, but don't hold your breath getting an honest answer, unless the reference feels free to give a glowing one. That's why the simple question most people ask is "Would you hire this person again?" I read between the lines if the answer is no, or if they say they would prefer not to answer it.

inkognito: I was truly sorry to hear about your experience. It sounded very unpleasant.

Here in WA state, there are two basic options if someone is displaying behavior that is a danger to themselves or others. The first is simply to call 911 and request a unit be sent out. The second is to call the mental health crisis line and speak to a Mental Health Professional (MHP). This is typically the option you would use if the out of control person was a friend or family member. The MHP does have the authority to evaluate and hospitalize the individual against their will for 72 hours. This can be extended if necessary with the approval of a judge.

I think it is very difficult to weed out undeserable people in an interview. However, you could try Googling "behavioral interview" - this technique will allow you to ask questions like, "When was the last time you got angry at work and how did you handle it?" or "Tell me about a time you had to work through an insurmountable obstacle." Of course they can lie, but you will be surprised how many times people will talk themselves out of a job. Here are some examples from actual interviews, which I hope will brighten your day:

1. "... stretched out on the floor to fill out the job application."

2. "She wore a Walkman and said she could listen to me and the music at the same time."

3. " A balding candidate abruptly excused himself. Returned to office a few minutes later, wearing a hairpiece."

4. "... asked to see interviewer's resume to see if the personnel executive was qualified to judge the candidate."

5. "... announced she hadn't had lunch and proceeded to eat a hamburger and French fries in the interviewers office - wiping the ketchup on her sleeve"

6. "Stated that, if he were hired, he would demonstrate his loyalty by having the corporate logo tattooed on his forearm."

7. "Interrupted to phone his therapist for advice on answering specific interview questions."

8. "When I asked him about his hobbies, he stood up and started tap dancing around my office."

9. "At the end of the interview, while I stood there dumbstruck, he went through my purse, took out a brush, brushed his hair, and left."

10. "... pulled out a Polaroid camera and snapped a flash picture of me. Said he collected photos of everyone who interviewed him."

11. "Said he wasn't interested because the position paid too much."

12. "While I was on a long-distance phone call, the applicant took out a copy of Penthouse, and looked through the photos only, stopping longest at the centerfold."

13. "During the interview, an alarm clock went off from the candidates brief case. He took it out, shut it off, apologized and said he had to leave for another interview."

14. "A telephone call came in for the job applicant. It was from his wife. His side of the conversation went like this:
"Which company? When do I start? What's the salary?" I said, "I assume you're not interested in conducting the interview any further." He promptly responded, "I am as long as you'll pay me more." I didn't hire him, but later found out there was no other job offer. It was a scam to get a higher offer."

15. "His attach[case] opened when he picked it up and the contents spilled, revealing ladies undergarments and assorted makeup and perfume."

16. "Candidate said he really didn't want to get a job, but the unemployment office needed proof that he was looking for one."

17. "... asked who the lovely babe was, pointing to the picture on my desk. When I said it was my wife, he asked if she was home now and wanted my phone number. I called security."

18. "Pointing to a black case he carried into my office, he said that if he was not hired, the bomb would go off. Disbelieving, I began to state why he would never be hired and that I was going to call the police. He then reached down to the case, flipped a switch and ran. No one was injured, but I did need to get a new desk."

That's hilarious. It helps if you've ever been employed as an interviewer for HR. I had a guy pull that "didn't want the job, but had to show up for an interview to get his unemployment" routine. He sneered and made a few outre' comments about working there. Well, it was good enough for me, so I hired him on the spot, knowing he'd never show up. Then sent in the paperwork to the employment bureau.

We have gone to having a 90 day probation period in which we can terminate employment of anyone for any reason. Setting this expectation up front has set the tone that we don't put up with poor performance or behavior. In about 90 days you can see someone's true colors.

I know you are trying to be helpful jasmine but with a season of 90 days what then?

90 days is plenty of time to find out if your new boss is nuts.

I realise that checking up on previous employers is always a good idea too (the boss rarely does) although they are not allowed to say much. I have a few questions to avoid this problem: "Would you hire them again?" "Can they be trusted to work unsupervised?".

Probation period? ROTFLMAO We have one of those too. Nothing happens anyway when I advise the owner about potential problems.

So,...yes bboy I'd have to say that it is the owner who is at the root (no pun intended). I'd like to hear how you handled it. Sure I could quit and start my own company which is what the person I replaced did and of course I now understand why. But, unless another 'dream job' like this one is available I'm at a point in my life where I simply must not sweat the small stuff with only 10 years before retirement (or sooner if I have my way). It's not my company and I shouldn't care as much as I do. So I don't get mad, I get even. After all it's not like he's going to fire me LOL!

Worse than hiring a psycho, it is being HIRED by a psycho! I have had the misfortune of this 3 times...this might perhaps have a lot to do with why I have semi-retired at 42 and real cranky. My fav psycho boss..on my first day, after traveling across the country, buying a house, getting my family ready to move...get this..
I was in the rear of the greenhouse and happened to look up just as the owner comes in- I watch her as she comes marching thru the greenhouse. She spots me...bee-lines right for me and SCREAMS "I just slipped on the floor from all the water! What kinda' mess you run! GET THIS DUMP CLEANED UP!" I mentioned that I did not see her fall and that no, there wasn't any water on the floor. All the viens bulge out on her forehead...I swear I thought she was going to blow a gasket. Then she shrieks "DEATH DEATH DEATH!!! THATS ALL I SEE IS DEATH!! I look around and made the mistake of saying "where?" I did not have a clue what she was screetching about. The greenhouses were near perfect in quality ect. I kid you not, she started to, like spit and sputter and stormed off. I knew I was in trouble by that point...what a mistake I had made. She had really fooled me in the interviews. This was a Friday and as I left, I saw the "Queen" standing on a tall, wooden box...she made all the employees stand in line- a lenghthy line- to get their checks from her. Well THAT helped explained the dejected attitude ALL the employees had. I packed my bags and left. Many of you would know this co.- if you buy liners from No.Florida.

Oh, and kinda in the same theme...my first job, after graduation (boy, sure shattered my high hopes) my boss hit me across the back with a shovel. Yup! Sure did. Why? I was bent over in a row, working on cleaning out 1 gal. buckets and the owner thought I was doing something he had not asked. After hitting me (very, very hard) and yelling at me that I did not pay attention to what he asked- he noticed that, in fact, I was doing what he had asked. Rather than saying a LEAST "sorry" he just muttered a profanity and walked off. You should have seen the bruise... Gee, to think I stayed there two years. It never even got better! Did I mention I made 3.80 an hour for all that fun?
I guess the whole thing works both ways, lol. Thought you all might get a laugh at this!

I'd be laughing if it wasn't somewhat typical. I get tired of the griping about workers, here and elsewhere, so thankyou for your post. The owner sets up the situation, holds all the cards. Sure he is the one who gets the loan and builds the business, but he doesn't do it by himself.

The boss who hit you with the shovel committed physical assault. "Screeching" is also an assault, technically. I have been yelled at many times myself, including by the owner of a multimillion dollar operation who could be located on the property by listening for the sound of his irate voice bellowing at employees for such terrible infractions as having a cart pointing in the "wrong" direction. I heard him referred to by others as a "shouter", showing, sadly, how frequent exposure to such behavior is among local workers--they have a term for it.

Reading some of the threads on this forum makes me tired, and I haven't even really started my growing business yet!

I made a rule after living through what I loosely term "my childhood" --

Any person who is violent toward me or my family (in any way at all) is no longer a part of my life, period. I would probably add "toward co-workers if I happen to witness it" to that.

I had a job that I absolutely loved, that paid $12 an hour. One day my boss became verbally abusive for no apparent reason. I picked up my purse and walked out, never to return. I assumed that if he felt he had to stand up next to my face and scream at me, he really did not want me there. Prior to that moment, we had gotten along wonderfully, and he had even told me once I was "too efficient"! I didn't even go back for my coffee cup.

Later I found out from a friend that this person has a loooong reputation of becoming violent at the drop of a hat. His son was in prison for taking a gun to a school where his wife worked.

Then I found out I was the fifth office manager to walk out.

Every person on this earth is different, and there is no way to know for certain what a given person will or will not do.

As a survivor of several violent attacks, I would let an employee go within five minutes if they became verbally or physically violent w/o even considering further. If need be, I'd call the police to help them pack.

:)

Tim H,
Not just assault, but assault and battery. Wish you'd pressed charges. Any idiot who would slam an employee with a shovel for nothing, likely beats his wife and kids.

Coincidentaly, The Devil Wears Prada is playing at theaters around the States. The reviews say that Meryl Streep is excellent as a psycho boss.

Whereas breaking a shovel over someone's back for a reason, now that's acceptable. You know, I think this may not be the first time I've heard of a hort. employee having a shovel broken over their back. Maybe this idea made the rounds of the early morning coffee circles awhile back.

"Yeah, I just break a shovel over their back and that perks 'em right up."

We once hired an employee with only a telephone interview. She moved to the area and started work. Seemed a bit strange at first. Got stranger as time went on. You'd ask her a question and she'd stare at you. At staff meetings she had to sit with at least a four foot distance between other members. She'd sometimes hold a conversation with some invisible person. You might meet her walking down the hall and although there was just the two of you, she'd ignore you.

Staff began to complain, then patients (this was in a medical setting). Finally, before her 1 year probationary period was over, she was let go.

A year later the hospital was hit with a lawsuit that we had discriminated against the mentally ill. Turns out she was an untreated schizophrenic. She didn't want compensation, she wanted to come back and work with us but she didn't like the idea of taking medication.

Luckily the lawsuit went nowhere as she had lied on her application on the question "do you have a mental illness". She'd answered "no" although she'd been diagnosed with schizophrenia during her middle teen years.

And her previous employers had given glowing reports on her work habits.

Well, yeah Bboy. You know the old Three Stooges routine:

Moe: (Smacks Larry upside the head)
Larry: Ow! Whaddya do that for?!
Moe: Nothing. So imagine what I'd do if you did something.

As a kid I never used to get The Three Stooges. Now I like some of it, especially the one where they are carpenters and Larry saws through the platform while Moe is standing on it, who then topples over like a tree. Haw haw haw!

Why do women I know say finding these funny is "a guy thing", with that same look and tone as with "all men are dogs?".

G-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r!

Studies have actually been done on this subject and there appears to be some clear cut distinctions as to what males and females regard as humor. Slapstick or sight gags have always appealed to men, whereas - according to the studies - women are more analytical in their approach to humor and so appreciate a well-told joke better. Even the punch line is not so critical as long as the lead-in or story is well set up.

So yeah, apparently there is some merit behind the notion that appreciating the Three Stooges (a total mystery to me) is indeed a "guy thing".

Here is a link that might be useful: humor - male vs. female

Moe: Boy oh boy! Bread and ketchup! The only thing I like better is bologna and whipped cream, and we ain't got any.

I happen to be a female-type person who grew up on Three Stooges, Marvel and DC Comics and Mad Magazine. My sense of humor was coached by Mad and Stooges, with a chaser of Marx Brothers, Abbott "& Costello and Laurel & Hardy. Lord knows how I turned out to be a relatively normal woman (nevermind grow up at all, considering all of the violent slapstick which as kids we had to imitate, of course)!

As a kid I was bothered by all the slapping and so on. But, women and children do tend to huddle together away from the men anyway, like apes.

"Women and children first!"

Maybe the men are hoping the ship won't sink if they unload the hens and chicks.

Now I don't care so much about the "violence". What does that mean, more of a man than I used to be, less of a child, or both?

Or am I less of a woman? Some of us definitely don't seem to fit gender stereotypes. I've been told several times over the years I was gay, which immediately made me think the other person was an idiot.

It could be more fun to keep people guessing. It's a good way to put down their arrogance when they presume to tell a person what he or she is. Remember the "It's Pat" sketch from the old Saturday Night Live? heh

I was never bothered by the violence of Stooges slapstick, as a kid, because I knew it was fantasy and not real life. When we kids imitated them, it was a simulation, never actual hitting ("Why I oughta...*simulated smack upside the head* while slapping our own thigh or butt to provide the appropriate smack sound). The gratuitous violence of today's movies focused on drugs and crime is much more disturbing, in my opinion, because the line between reality and "Hollywood" is so blurred. Stooges were obviously a fantasy construct, removed from the real world. But the slash-and-burn stuff we see on the screen today looks disconcertingly like the cities and surroundings in which we live and the people we see.

A lot of women and girls shy away from violent imagery because violence is not part of the female lexicon. We're supposed to be nurturers. We'll fight to defend a child or our home, and at our lowest lows women will get into catfights over a man, but for most urban and suburban middle/upper class women, physicality is not part of their lives.

Enjoyment of violence or simulated violence is simply not part of the mainstream female psyche. I happened to grow up with all brothers, so I "naturalized" it as a normal part of my life. I've trained in martial arts (including jujutsu, which is a painful one) for decades and put myself in a situation of controled violence every time I train. I am comfortable taking and giving "pain and violence" because I am conditioned from many years of study.

I think that finding slapstick violence less entertaining as you age is more an indication of your growing maturity and sophistication. After all, the Stooges represent low burlesque, an entertainment form meant to appeal to the "common man" who needed to have someone to whom he could feel superior. And slapstick is a physical language everyone can understand -- the carpenter with a board over his shoulder, turning around and whacking his partner with the board (accidentally) as he does, is a classic visual pratfall joke. It appeals on an unsophisticated level that requires no intellect. But it's okay to laugh. We know we are capable of enjoying much more subtle forms of humor!

Speaking of pratfalls and unsophisticated humor, I wonder if anyone on the forum has enquired about that tv landscape show...

Violence can be a big part of the female experience, unfortunately, and definitely is overseas.

Since the slapping shtick bothers me less now, have I become less sophisticated? I detect a definite working man's comedy aspect to it, for example the one I mentioned where they are attempting to be carpenters. Maybe some women don't get it because they are disonnected from "physicality", as you put it--if they had done such work themselves they would pick up on the situational humor. I think some women definitely do demonstrate a disconnect from physicality when they get behind the wheel of a car, driving as though they have no idea what that hunk of metal could do to somebody else. The same would go for some men, of course. Other guys are just nasty anyway, it's amazing how some live and conduct themselves.

Yes, I'm afraid that your tolerance of slapschtik means that you have deteriorated... Just kidding! I think the process goes full circle -- as kids we respond viscerally and without sophistication; eventually we learn to discern subtleties, and find burlesque to be too unsubtle for our now-sophisticated tastes. Then, as old folk, we realize that life is a joke after all, and it's "all good." I'm not exactly elderly, but I'll never see youth again, and I find Stooges fun.

Seriously, I think some people do retain the ability to find physical humor hilarious all their lives. Look at the French and Jerry Lewis. And "Old Europeans" such as the French see Americans and Canadians as being jejeune and too young as nations to have the sophistication they do, with its accompanying ability to discern the humor of burlesque.

So burly cue is actually highfalutin'?

Shore. You know that everything's up to date in Kansas City!

"Do you have any nuts?"

"Why yes, madam, pretty much all of use here at Bob's Nursery are."

That was supposed to be "us", not "use."

I think someone hired your psycho-

Here is a link that might be useful: link to article

"Lance Tywan Wamley"! there should have been a clue there somewhere, don't you think?

His mother never restrained him by calling his name because she couldn't pronounce it.

It seems as though this young man certainly stired up some strong feelings among folks. There is nothing worse than feeling intimidated. Fellow group members sent out some sound ideas, such as interview questions that might help avoid future problems.
I am a mental health professional & retired landscape designer of 15 yrs. I know that gardeners are nurturers at heart so decided to clarify a few points.
It is extremely unusual for folks who suffer from mental illness to become violent. In fact it more often happens that people with mental illness become the victims of violence at the hands of so called "normal people".
Mental illness is under-treated and under-medicated. According to the World Health Organizaton within the next ten years mental illness will become one of the top ten leading causes of disability. More often the public perceives folks with mental illness as malingerers because they can't see the source of the problem. Like nutrients in the soil in this case tangibilty dosn't count.
Mental illness is highly stigmatizing. Thanks to the media the average person with mental illness is believed to be a combination of Freddy Kruger and the Greene River Killer. In truth all of our lives have been enriched immeasurably by folks with psychological problems-VanGogh-Robin Williams-Sigmund Freud-just to begin a very long list.
I have worked with all kinds of people, with a variety of diagnosis and never felt unsafe. Please remember that when people are working for you-you are in a position of power. If they sense they have displeased you in some way it would not be unusual for that person to begin to struggle to please,this could appear awkward. We are not all blessed with the same good social skills.

Paranoid schizophrenia and bi-polar depression are not quite in the same league as sociopaths and psychopathological sorts. People with the former two conditions can be contributing members of society; the latter two can't. This thread discusses the latter two, albeit in a non-serious way.