I am sure that if she had not left this board she would read this and rush right over there. Maybe if I leave tonight I can get down there before they hire someone else.

Pansysoup,

A couple weeks before yours, I saw another ad on Craig's List for similar, but someone else took the liberty of posting a reply (got it onto Craig's List by posing as an ad with "Response to Garden Designer Wanted" in the title) that contained many words not printable here. Essential, the guy was saying the same thing you are, but also was venting his frustration and indignation at the lack of respect and value many people have for landscape- and garden designers.

No doubt his profane rant did alot to improve the image of garden designers.

Yeah, I'm certain of that...

.... and what do we do for the image and value of the "industry" when someone launches a thread about quiting their job to become a garden designer? Do we say "you go girl!" (anyone can do it), or do we tell them that it is tough to make a living at it (you won't get paid much), or do we tell them that they have to learn and experience a lot in order to make it (you have to pay your dues to plant those yews)? How does any of that get perceived by the public?

My guess is that the person posting the ad has already hired someone and is still getting calls. Maybe from someone who is desperate for experience, or one that is more in love with the position than has need for money.

Or a con artist.

How many "gardens" have you all repaired that were installed by hit and run "landscapers"?

The question is, how do we garden/landscape people with actual training educate the typical consumer about the difference between us and the "mow-blow-and-go" guy who flys by the seat of his pants, but will work for less?

There is too much to do in our own niches to worry about erasing the other niches. Unless or until the mow, blow, and go people are truly competitive with you, there is no reason to worry about them or those that feel the need to hire them.

Sometimes people rally want an inexpensive inexperienced person and would rather put up with the potential nonsense that comes from that than to pay to avoid it. Some people have needs and little money. I think about the elderly population who, in some instances, have a very little nest egg and watched their property taxes get huge and their interest rates on their CDs go below 1%. They don't need the triple certified professional to knock down the grass, but they need the grass knocked down.

There is no reason to feel the need to take work from mow, blow, and go guys. Hopefully, they really can't take work from us.

I think it is equally important to be educated by the public about thier own personal situations as it is to educate them about professionalism. I view that importance to be limited to those who I am in direct contact with. I can tell them about our plight and they can tell me about theirs. We'll either have some common ground or we won't. They won't change what I do or my fees and I probably won't move them very much from their perspective. Why try to educate the public at large from one perspective of a very broad industry. We seem to want to standardize our clients as much as they want to standardize us. I like the diversity.

I don't group "knocking the grass down" with designing and installing/maintaining a landscape. As far as lawnmowing and weed whacking is concerned, I'd be the first to hire the highschool kid next door (except that most teens nowadays don't want to do manual labor) or the mow-'n'-blow squad. That's what they're good for, and I don't consider them competition.

A mow-'n-blow team Dropping a flat of marigolds into an existing annual bed wouldn't be an issue here - basic "anyone can do it" stuff that an elderly person no longer can do him/herself and is willing to pay Mr. Mow'n'Blow for. I also have no complaint against people who started out with a truck delivering mulch, but educated themselves about horticulture and design, soil prep, etc. and can do a fair job of landscape install and basic gardening. They have earned their niche.

It's when the mow-'n'-blows add "landscaping for less!" to their shingle that I grouse. They can feign drawing up a "design," but many know nothing - or close to nothing - about hardscape, horticulture, soil and the other factors that make for putting the right stuff in the right place.

I see more and more of these guys claiming to Do It All, without the knowledge and skill, conning unsuspecting homeowners into buying their plan. And I cringe when a few months later those homeowners show up at our nursery with an SUV filled with dead shrubs and perennials for which they want a credit, due to the plants' "defectiveness."

"My guess is that the person posting the ad has already hired someone and is still getting calls. Maybe from someone who is desperate for experience, or one that is more in love with the position than has need for money."

True. There's no better person to do a job that the person who enjoys the position...especially a semi-retired or financially independent individual.

They have been around forever and will be around forever. There is no line that they cross to be in the next category. The only time that they (who are they and who are they not?) are annoying is when a consumer makes a bad decision. "They" don't feel like they are trying to weasel anyone. "They" just want to get better work and know so little about it that they don't realize what they do not know.

Everyone of us reached up to work that we had not done before. When we did that, we were one of "them".

We all judge the value of others in this industry by how they compare to ourselves. It is human nature. It is hard not to do. I try like heck not to do it.

What should I think of middle aged people from the corporate world who planted flowers in their beds quiting their jobs and calling themselves landscape designers after I worked the trenches for twenty years, went to school for five and a half, interned with landscape architects and engineers, and spent thousands and passed exams to get licensed? Are they the "them"? I think they would be if I still thought that way, but I don't. They have their ambitions and fill needs of some consumers. Sometimes the same consumers that have also called me. Sometimes they get the job and I don't. Sometimes they do a great job. Sometimes they don't. I offered my services as they are for what I charge to do the work. It is up to the consumer to decide what they need and how much they value what they need. It is up to the consumer to decide who they want to work with.

I'm not going to worry about it. I'm not going to change this ever present condition by "educating the public". They'll learn, or maybe we'll learn that sometimes they wanted what they paid for.

Sometimes you just want a burger and you get one quick and cheap at McDonald's. Sometimes you want a high quality steak so you go to a fancy, expensive steakhouse with candles and linens and a winelist. Sometimes you get a burger at a steakhouse (but I doubt you get a decent steak at McD's!).

Consumers have different needs and expectations and different budgets. There is room for all. What isn't so ethical is charging steakhouse prices for a McD's burger!

I work in the field of interiorlandscaping. There are a few companies (one very large one that reminds me a lot of McDonalds) that do what we can "splash and dash" servicing of their plants. We are a smaller company that prides ourselves on personalized, quality service. We end up taking over a lot of accounts from the splasher-dashers and get a lot of compliments about how much nicer the same plants look. We charge more too. Some people don't want to pay the extra and live with mediocre plants. Some people pay more and get our better quality. Eventually most clients come to understand the distinction.

To beat your metaphor to death not everyone wants a steak and candleight over a burger. I haven't eaten a steak in 20 years and can think of nothing more revolting in my body. You might think a particular design is 'superior' but 'superior' is often subjective.

A customer often wants to fill his stomach with something tasty. Paying for a waiter, tips, pricy wine, etc. may add no value at the end of the day to how his food tasted or how full his stomach is. His burger meal cost $5, his fancty restaurant meal $75. Was it 15 times better? so sure, a 'professionl' garden design and landscaping might include a lot of 'extras' that at the end of the day puts money in the professional's pocket but not always a better or more pleasing plant in the ground.

I've had as many clients call and want me to work on their property after they've had an expensive landscape job as after an inexpensive one. Their principal complaint is often the other guy 'was ok (steak) but not really what I like (hamburger)'. For example, the customer would like some more of those 'popular' colorful bulbs sold cheap at Walmart and less the soft textures of the latest coral bells that are supposed to go 'just right' with the brown hue of the stepping stones.

Yeah, but this ad is definitely asking for steak and offering to pay for hamburger--that's what is offensive about it. They even mention in the same sentence that the job is in an affluent neighborhood, as though to remove all doubt that it is YET ANOTHER CHEAP RICH PERSON.

Something that caught my eye (I'm coming in late on this discussion) was the distinct order that the request was written.

"Please come over and

1. plant,
2. dig, and
3. design

my hillside garden in Tiburon"

Why does planting first come to mind to someone who (clearly) needs much more advanced services?

-Audric

I noticed that too, Audric. Just proves that this guy has his head on backwards! My guess is that his wife probably told him "to do something about the yard," and he didn't put any thought into it.

You'll love this recent Craigslist post...
Someone posted in the Free section...Free Wood in Montgomery County: They had 8 large trees about 30 feet in height and were looking for someone to cut them all down, and in return, they can have the wood for free! I posted that they should have advestised for a slave to do all of that free laborous and dangerous work for unseasoned wood, so my message was flagged and removed. The original posted was quite serious, too. Some people just have no clue.

I have done this on more than one occasion dicentra. I sold the walnut to a guitar maker (you would marvel at the grain on that wood) and an oak to a cabinet maker for veneer (dark and dense and highly valued)although I know you they are talking about logs which is a different story. The other side of this coin is people without the sense or knowledge to see the difference between veneer oak and firewood or a hamburger and a steak.

i do take offense to some people "taking the micky" out of the so called mow blow and go people, my boss for one started out as a mow, blow and go people, now 6 years later, are a millon $ company, installed very high end landscapes, i have my degree in landscape archicture, but do very few design, i typically install large masonary projects.... my irish freinds also have a "mow blow and go" company and are slowly crossing over to teh install side.. everyone has to start somewhere

and yes my spelling is bad, the stone cant tell the difference

As I wrote previously, I don't have a problem with "mow, blow and go" people IF they have made an effort to educated themselves as they go. Again, they have earned their niche. Gaining knowledge through self-education and hands-on work in the field is just as legitimate (or more, in cses respects) as school training.

It's the bunch of "m-b-g" folks who DON'T learn, but continue to try to make a quick buck without expanding their understanding of horticulture, soils, design and other crucial factors, who give the profession a bad name. There are, unfortunately, too many of them, as it's easy to buy a pick-up truck, have a sign painted on it, and oneself a landscape/garden designer-installer.

A stupid, or uneducated, or not wanting to be educated person should not be allowed to be self employed in the mowing industry? I'm wondering if it is OK for these people to work for others doing the same thing.

When they go work for Walmart we scream that they are being exploited by the industrial machine. Hopefully, they have the dignity to quit and come to work for a landscape company to mow lawns for good wages, insurance, vacation time, and the stock options that we all provide.

We can all measure ourselves by looking at who we view as competitors. I'm not losing work to a $10 an hour designer at this point, of that I am sure.

Massachusetts allows anyone to be a landscaper or landscape designer without licensing, but there are many states that require licensing, as you know. It's for a good reason.

How about if anyone could call himself/herself a landscape architect?

There are mow-blow-go guys building retaining walls and other hardscape, who do not have credentials. The client has to take it on faith that the person knows what he's doing, and is doing it to standard. I've seen some very bad workmanship, and hope the homeowners have good insurance.

But, hey - if it keeps the "stoopid, not-wanting-to-be-educated" dudes from ending up at Walmart, what could be bad?

I wouldn't have anyone on my crew who wasn't willing to learn and be educated, though. Why the heck would I waste my time on someone who would do the same mistake again and again? There are lots of people, even ones who are developmentally or mentally challenged, who are eager and willing learners. They may be able to do only simple tasks, but if there are enough of those tasks on a job -- such as digging and amending a planting hole -- then I would gladly hire and train such a person to do that on a big project. I would know that his/her heart was in it.

Of course, anyone can start his business and charge $10/hour. I didn't say they shouldn't. Only that the ones who keep going for the quick buck without learning the proper way to ply their newfound trade, give the profession a bad name. That's why we should have certification for landscaping in Mass. Even a self-taught person would have a chance to gain licensinig if he applies himself. The rest, if they want, can water plants at Walmart, under supervision.

There are lots of certificate programs. It is just that they are not required. Who ever asks a landscape contractor if (s)he is certified?

Anyone can do the same work that I do with or without a landscape architecture license in the State of Massachusetts. It is a title act vs. a practice act. That means that the license allows for the use of the title, but does not allow us to do anything that others are prohibited from doing, nor does it prohibit anyone from doing what we are doing. A practice act does grant additional areas of practice that might otherwise be limited to civil engineers, land surveyors, or architects in some cases, and/or exclude other people from doing certain landscape design activities. I do not favor the latter. I used to go round and round with some folks regarding the Oregon laws that I think are excessive even though they would give me a huge market advantage if they were implemented here.

I just have a very strong feeling that issues of health and safety should be regulated which they are, but a free market in such a diverse field is very important.

To regulate you would have to define what qualifications fit. Each of us assumes we would fall into the "qualified" area. Anyone with a Bachelor's degree would say that is a good criteria while the self taught person would come up with something that matched his resume. The reality is that the bar has to be set somewhere. Can you come up with a criteria that makes sense?

Please define the criteria in specifics. A willingness to learn is pretty hard to test for.

Certificates and degrees are good marketing tools, but are much more valuable in the knowledge gained in their pursuit.

Who has been asked for credentials? The next person who came to look at the job after you explained yours, that's who. The edge goes to you in that case.

When the state makes this exclusionary, everyone looking at the job will have the credentials. What good is that? Well, everyone would appear equally qualified to the consumer. Now how does that help?

Right now it is up to the consumer to decide whether or not a person has what is necessary for the job.

I don't disagree with your caveat emptor approach, Andrew, nor even the Darwinian "sink or swim" angle. I just wonder why you seem so supportive of the shady characters depicted earlier - unless you're being ironic.

Landscaping may not have as urgent a need for knowledge-for-safety's-sake as, say, brain surgery or civil engineering, but I do believe that there should be at least a minimal standard of regional knowledge of soils and amendments, a basic repertoire plant species/varieties and their cultural requirements, basic pest-control. Aesthetics you can't test for, as taste is subjective, but the science of the craft is learnable and testable in the way that a civil service exam for postal workers tested the ability to memorize zip codes and basic direction-finding abilities. (Of course, the postal civil service exam is now defunct, since you no longer need to be a civil servant to be a postal worker.)

Yeah, caveat emptor, and let's hear it for the survival of the fittest (including the savvy homeowners who figure out when not to hire someone)... but I'm glad that my plumber, contractor and electrician have to be licensed. If a landscaper is only planting geraniums, I wouldn't worry, but I don't want him installing a hardscape retaining wall if he is faking it.

Here you have to be a contractor to plant geraniums. Speaking of improving your knowledge, amending of planting holes is a disproven practice.

Details, details, bboy. ;^) Amending planting holes - yep, in general, it isn't wise to make the soil in the immediate planting area drastically different than what the plant will be encountering once its roots extend beyond the hole.

However, knowing and "mastering" rules like this open the way to being able to "break" those rules when you know what you're doing. After 35+ years of practicing horticulture, I have my own proven successes (many after lots of trial and error) for a particular intepretation of amending a planting hole, and it involves taking into consideration the surrounding conditions; in fact, it is usually connected to the preparation of the entire garden bed or area.

So, when I say "amend a planting hole," it isn't what you're thinking, and I believe I understand what you're thinking here. ;^)

Hey, as long as we're being picky, there is still an exam for prospective postal workers, although it's not the civil service exam. It's kind of scary looking - I helped my husband study for it but he never took it.

And I had no idea that Walmart actually watered their plants! ;)

I didn't say there wasn't an exam - just that it's not a Civil Service one anymore. heh. I guess they still have to have standards, such as having mail deliverers who can memorize street directions and zip codes.

Good point about Walmart... But like Home Depot and Lowe's, I think that depending on the store there actually can be employees who do water the plants. It's a matter of luck if you have such an employee at your local Wally.

Last week I saw a watering wand with the water on, and a section of dry, failing perennials. I couldn't resist the urge to water them, which drew curious glances from passing employees. lol

On Saturday I was at our local Walmart and an employee was in the process of dumping dozens and dozens of full trays of plants into the garbage bins. A bit of TLC would have restored these plants to saleable condition in a day or two.

What a waste. Walmart is no friend of the environment. One fellow once asked if he could have the 'throwaways' for compost and he was refused. He had rec'd positive responses from other stores who were always looking for ways to be more positive towards the environment.

Maybe Walmart sells many plants on a consignment basis and doesn't have stake in the inventory. Either way, they need a slap on the wrist for being wasteful.

That's all they need a slap on the wrist for? The World's Most Profitable Business has alot of other antisocial aspects to it.

Who hires more illegal aliens - Walmart or the landscape industry?

Who sprays more pesticides - Walmart or the landscape industry?

Who loads more nitrogen into lakes, rivers, ponds, and streams - Walmart or the landscape industry?

Who burns up more fossil fuel burning engines every day - Walmart or the landscape industry?
Who cuts down more native shrubbery and trees - Walmart or the landscape industry?

Who plants more invasive species - Walmart or the landscape industry?
Who provides more benefits to their workers - Walmart or the landscape industry?

Who provides for basic needs of poor people with affordable food and clothing - Walmart or the landscape industry?

I believe we were being facetious in our Walmart comments. Of course Wally-Mart is the Great Satan of Western capitalism, and the greatest abuser of pretty much everything that can be abused - from human resources to natural resources. And to make things worse, they claim ownership of the "Smily Face," which actually was invented by a former ad man in Worcestor, Mass. (he passed away a few years ago) who never copyrighted it because he thought it was worth sharing with everyone.

Thank goodness I have choices of where I can buy products, because I will not set foot in Walmart, ever.

Normally lurking, but I'll chime in here on the 'throwing plants away at Walmart' comment.
I have a family member who works for Walmart and I asked why they throw them away when we used to buy them at 'clearance'. It was explained to me that people would then return the plant for full price because of their guarantee. If a purchase is under $20, you get cash back without a receipt, over that you get a store card.
Well, it even got worse when employees started returning these plants for full price. So now they throw them away. Unfortunate, but demands by consumers for guarantees and customer satisfaction have unfortunately lead to this.
Oh well.....back to lurking...

Look on the bright side. Someone may be able to quit their Walmart job and work for the lady who needs a designer for $10 per hour and then avoid Walmart and buy her clothes at a nice locally owned boutique where all of the clothes are made in America (look at the label).

HA!
I'm not knocking Walmart. Just explaining because I think throwing the plants away is a backlash of consumer demand.
I spend WAY too much money there and so do alot of folks who don't like to admit it. But, most folks just love to hate 'em...
They are really just another store to the educated consumer, and most of us running a household are pretty darn educated on where we spend our money.

Walmart should not be wasteful whether or not they have good or poor practices otherwise. It's our planet and we all have a responsibility. Walmart's return excuse is a sad statement on Walmart not caring enough about the environmnet to take precautions. The environment is simply not a priority for them.

Re the comparison to the landscape industry. What's the point? Perhaps the wisdom 'two wrongs don't make a right' isn't as cliche as I assumed.

There is no nursery that will keep nonmarketable plants or sell discounted stock in peak season. It has to be tossed. The effort and space does not make a profitable alternative.

There would be 10 posters here bashing Walmart for having junky looking plants to every one post upset about them throwing it away.

I know nurseries that throw away perfectly good annuals in July rather than sell them for less as an end of season special in fear that the more frugal would wait 'til the July sale next year.

The trick is to have the sale for leftover annuals in October. Tell customers that they can still enjoy container color for a few weeks before the frost zaps 'em -- which would be for a longer time than the average cut bouquet lasts.

10 weeks of watering, maintenance, and shelf space has a price. The question is whether that price is more or less than what you get in October.

That thought didn't escape me...
But being as the big boxes do minimal watering and maintenance, and tend not to get much new stuff in during the summer (until the fall seasonal stuff), it appears that they could shove the annuals on a back table at let them "mellow" until fall.

Some local nurseries up here do that. They have a back section where the unsold spring plants go. The unsold summer perennials join them later in the season. A half-price sign on the table usually lures a few shoppers to pick through the "seconds" daily, and eventually most of the stuff gets sold.

Interestingly, at one nursery a lot of landscapers have bought out whole tables of annuals in the fall, because they were doing late-season landscapes for new condo or apartment developments that wanted whatever greenery available at that time of year. I guess the nurseries broke even (on the cost of maintaining the plants) by selling such volume.

It is always good when you can recover some money. It is also good that the needs of the condo developers was met and someone got some late season work out of it.

Come to think of it, I built window boxes in September last year. It took me a while to find some filler.

If nothing else, it works as "PR" for the garden centers/nurseries: We have it when no one else does. If I were running a nursery, I would consider it part of my marketing/pr budget. It does depend on whether you do enough volume to eat any costs. Or, conversely, you are such a small operation that you have "nothing to lose" by tucking the annuals on a back table and giving 'em a daily hosing.