I'd second that...seems a bit odd that you don't want to mention the plant.

For my two cents: I think it's a good policy to label agressive plants as agressive (including how they're agressive). For example, if selling a running bamboo, one should include some notes on how it behaves, and how to keep its behavior in check.

The ones that bug me most are the wetland invaders (very difficult to remove by virtue of growing in a wetland), and plants that spread via bird poop. So, while I often use japanese maples (which can and do colonize and dominate adjacent woodlands around here), I wouldn't always sell a wineberry (much as I love the fruit)...unless of course it's already dominated the woodlands in the area (in which case a few more plants aren't going to make much difference).

OTOH, someone earlier mentioned Norway Maple. I'd be all for banning and/or eradicating those things, as well as Tree-of-Heaven, Japanese Honeysuckle, and Mimosa. They're just plain evil!

Sort of an aside question: do people still use Multiflora Rose as a rootstock for hybrid teas? And why isn't that on the fed. list? (It is on the PA list, but if it's a rootstock of a plant which was grafted in another state and the scion dies...)

all of this seems strange, coming from the most invasive species on the planet. (Homo sapien)

drew

More follow up-
First of all thank you everyone for helping me gain some perspective on the differing viewpoints concerning this event/occurence/issue. I guess it was a slightly disturbing incident to me, but with time seems less important.
Clarifying- I did not include the name of the plant because I did not want the debate to be concerned with the
actual species involved,( I grow about ten pots of this plant, it has not been a big seller, I've been selling it down and hopefully will sell the last of them this year. I only grow it for sentimental reasons, it was featured in the entrance to the greenhouses where I went to college. If anyone wants to , they can e-mail me for the plant info.) but my issue was with the sense of entitlement I have percieved, ie., to an extent, many people seem to feel the right to tell everyone else what to do, based on their own personal agenda.
Jack

Copied a piece from [Stop The White List],
If a law could do this? And have plant police!!!

"This proposal will ban over 99% of the world's species of plants, animals and micro-organisms. Anything not approved will have to be exterminated, so major herbicide manufacturers are backing this proposal. Under this new system, expensive safety testing will be required for all new plants before they are approved for possession and propagation. Thus, only major corporations will be able to afford to introduce new plants into cultivation."

It is taken out of context so I could make a public view of my fantasy while reading the website.....Let them do it!! I would be the Capone Of Hops, Barley and Corn...Oh yeah Baby..You no it! Bring it on

Finally be the Black Market gardener of my dreams. Change my F350 ford dump V8 Turbo Diesel into the runner vehicle of my dreams. Pimp my ride. Only problem would be getting rid of all the gardeners. To much competition. The logistics. I could see the headlines

Valentines massacre repeat! All over who was driving Miss Daisy to the "Moonshine Flower Nursery" last night. Gardening underworld out of control!!

On a real note. Has anyone felt the long arm of the law while in the Horticultural Field. Narcotics aside :)
Seems like England is perfecting the Legality of Invasive Plants. Ireland too. Japanese Knotweed cost their governments a lot of money. This is a real problem. So far the female is not producing fertile seed.

One ex-customer of mine had a colony a few acres across. If they knew the problems of proper disposal of contaminated soil they would probably look for the black market excavating company to bury a few thousand yards into the hills of some new subdivisions open site.

It just cant be destructed. I would hose off any equipment before leaving that commercial premise. I had learned the hard way. Having the plant show up in one of my moss gardens and luckily in deep shade was no joke. Solving the problem without tearing five years of my heart. Carefully removing the moss carpet in sections to dispose of six wheelbarrows of soil. That cost me one days labor and no one to charge since the problem in my opinion was of my own. Actually I was very ashamed to have brought an invasive unwittingly onto the property of a person I repsect. Gladly dumped it back at the mother colony from where the plant must have attached to my lawn machinery . It spooked me real good.

I am afraid of the stuff. I now charge more money to do work on properties with Japanese Knotweed. Otherwise you keep it contained for free while gardening. Its a monster. Freaking S.O.B. plant.

And for every evil you find good...Japanese Knotweed makes for the most secrative almost rustic mountain passage pathway man could devise. Creating a magical tunnel rivaling Bamboo.

I don't want to be an alarmist but I hope you saved the letter.

Your original post said you had received the note that morning and your post was dated June 12th. Well, the militant environmental extremist group, Earth Liberation Front, had targeted June 12th as a "day of action" and perhaps the anonymous note was part of it.

If you are not familiar with ELF, they are a loosely-knit shadowy group that targets businesses that they believe do damage to the environment. In the past that have burned SUV dealerships and large condominium developments under construction.

Perhaps, someone who sympathizes with the group's cause left the note. The fact that the note arrived on June 12th, was anonymous, targeted a business and expressed concern over an enviromental issue makes it suspicious. The problem would be what he/she/they would do if you didn't stop selling the plant.

Most likely, I'm way off base. But it doesn't take much to save a letter and you never know when it may be needed as evidence.

Murf

I've never heard that part of the ELF program is to return plastic pots to the nursery for recycling.

Absent any sort of threat, I think Jack had it right in the first place: "I'm sure this was a sincere, nonmalicious suggestion by someone who thought they were helping the earth."

Sorry, but some of you just don't get it, and that's a good thing, because it means no one ever sent you an anonymous letter.

Such things are poison. They are stronger than an internet poster telling you you're full of *&^%$# because they are physical, tactile, and hand-delivered, which makes you feel very creepy because you feel so targeted. You can't stop thinking about how this person knows where you live, knows who you are, and very specifically planned to ruin your day. Add to that they didn't want you to trace the letter back to them (must be they knew this tactic was not an honorable one!), and certainly weren't looking for a discussion, so no signature.

I received such a letter, hand-typed, when I first started planting natives in my yard and apparently deeply offended someone in my neighborhood with too much time on their hands. He/she left a neatly typed sheet of insults folded in an envelope and placed in my mailbox under cover of darkness.

So Jack -- stop trying to explain to people why it's hard to be like a duck and let it roll off when you've still got a pit in your stomach, and your heart. You think you're doing good for the community -- working your bleep off, making friends and winning customers, and then someone reaches out who you think is going to shake hands and they give you a nice little slash with a razor blade across your palm and run off, leaving you thinking -- whoa, just what I needed right now! How kind!

I am opposed to the practice of nurseries selling plants that are listed on invasive lists compiled by state agencies but when I have a problem with that I tell the shop manager. If you stop stocking invasives (we're talking recognized invasives in your region -- not 'aggressive' plants, i.e. groundcovers, that can get out of control in a yard if the gardener doesn't do any maintenance) then you should turn that decision into a marketing strategy and get some profit from it. I guarantee that any nursery in our town which advertised that it did not carry invasives as permanent policy would get business from every Master Gardener in the county.

Unfortunately, the poison pen letter is going to stay with your psyche for a while. Remind yourself that such people are cowards, no matter how reasonable their cause might be, and don't let yourself be influenced by cowardly actions. Do the right thing at your shop because it's the right thing, not because you got your confidence shaken.

"Such things are poison. They are stronger than an internet poster telling you you're full of *&^%$# because they are physical, tactile, and hand-delivered, which makes you feel very creepy because you feel so targeted."

I might agree, if the message in question consisted of a dead Lythrum salicaria nailed to the door, attached to an envelope containing five orange pips.*

Otherwise, I think one can get carried away with the "sinister aspect".

*subtle Conan Doyle reference.size>

Personally I would ignore the letter. If the plant is not a legally listed weed or invader I would continue to sell it. I consider hadera canariensis (ivy) to be a prime candidate for banning but until it is I will sell it as there is a demand for it. A few plants that I really think of as invaders I label as "spreads very vigourously" and will never recommend, but have them in stock. Letting every customer decide according to their own prejudices which plants one should not stock sounds a bit 'potty' to me.
Over here we have lately banned loads of plants, which is progress as we used to ban loads of people prior to democracy becoming fashionable!

Eric-
Of late you seem to be developing a rather mawkish sense of humor.*

*another subtle Conan Doyle reference.

Jack

As in, "You've been in Afghanistan, I perceive"?

Maybe what you need is an invasive customer list.

Cady and Eric,

After further research it seems the note was left by a tall woman of French origin carrying a wicker picnic basket and having an allergic reaction to a rare nocturnal moth, there are several other indications but those are the main points to consider, those, and the trained cormorant seen about the area in the days preceeding the incident.

Jack

Heh heh. I suspect all this hallucinogenic off-topical has to do with too many people sitting around inhaling Devil's Foot Root.

Eric OH you made me laugh out loud and totally lose it which is not cool because I am using a computer in a common area of a school and now everyone around thinks I am a loon!

Thanks for the funny post.

Frankly, your question sounded loaded to me.

Your follow ups certainly seem so: "...my issue was with the sense of entitlement I have percieved, ie., to an extent, many people seem to feel the right to tell everyone else what to do, based on their own personal agenda."

You recieved a note that asked you to please stop growing a plant. If the note writer had set up a picket line in front of your business, or posted flyers around town about your wanton disregard for the environment, I'd be more sympathetic to the idea that the writer is "telling you what to do...based on...personal agenda." A simple note asking for something, and which includes the word "please" is not exactly eco-terrorism, despite earlier dire warnings in this thread. Also, I think the title you chose for this thread reveals your own assumptions about the writer: S/he is the thought police, Political Correctness run amok.

Basically, it sounds like you made assumptions about the writer's motivation, which is understandable, but not especially worthwhile, or fair. And fairness, if I'm not mistaken is the real issue of your post? That is, you think the writer did something unfair or unreasonable to you?

The other thing that strikes me as significant is that you say, "I've been selling it down and hopefully will sell the last of them this year." It sounds an awful lot like you are saying you think the writer was right to ask you to stop growing this plant?

You sound sincere when you say this...well...hurt your feelings? Is that an accurate way to describe it? You were hoping for a compliment and you got a criticism. Hey, that would put a damper on anyone. I think the real issue of importance, however, is whether this plant is, in fact, a threat.

I seem to see a common thought running through this thread:

It's okay to sell non-native invasive plants UNTIL they are made illegal by the feds or your state.

However, anytime a group or agency tries to add a popular nursery plant to the official invasive list, the professional plant associations fight it tooth and nail. In essence, you circle the garden carts as to not threaten your bottom line.

Well, I think you all need to look beyond the official lists and visit the lists of your local Exotic Pest Plant Councils. These are the plants that should be outlawed but many aren't because you are all too concerned with making a buck before being good environmental stewards.

For a list of known non-native invasives for the Eastern U.S. as determined by knowledgeable people (botanists, etc.), go to the web site below. You will note that not all are on the official noxious weed lists, though they should.

Bellingham,

I like youre follow-up. I am embarrased of my own ignorance and playfull use of forum space. You are a good teacher. Thank you.

Unsettled feelings released here and an ensuing forum of aid/discussion. Has it helped? Definitely an interesting read and I can't help but wonder if maybe, Jack, you thought the person who delivered your note may come by your post?

Jack, Quite a few responses here and I am going to add my two cents worth before I read ALL of them. From your original post I see you as an intelligent, concerned person who feels their integrity has been called into question. First, stick to your guns and do not name the plant as that is not the issue here. I am sure the letter writer had good intentions although they may be misguided. I would post this letter to my bulletin board where the public can see it and below I would add my response to it. This will start a discourse where you can have a fair exchange of views. You could also print a statement on your policy towards invasive plants and their various lists and explain that it is a biological fact that plants grow and reproduce but that what may be invasive in one area is not in another and that anyone can make a list but you will honor only those put out by reputable state agencys. Post this on your bulletin board beneath the anonymous letter. I hope this is helpful.

One possibility escapes mention.

Jack, have you been sleeping less and, when successful, has it been less than peacful? Do you find yourself tossing and turning through the night? Have you wakened in the morning surrounded by signs that you had been up and about during the night? Is there a history of sleepwalking in your family? Dementia? Do you find crumpled notes around the bedroom in the morning?

I would suggest that selling these plants has built up an intolerable level of guilt and that this suppressed guilt has gathered to a point where your subconscious has caused you to frequent the night, placing these "anonymous" notes THAT YOU YOURSELF HAVE WRITTEN and placed there! Admit it , Sir! Can you prove that you were asleep in your bed on the date in question, June 11th? How convienient indeed that this is a known 'party night'. Do you recall having frequented the tavern the night before? Of course you can't! You can't remember WHAT you did that night! This fact that you can not remember placing the note there yourself proves that! You sir, deserve a sound thrashing.
Burn him! Burrrrrrrrnnnn himmmm!

Another point. Forget the invasive species thing. Mother nature and survival of the fittest and all that. If it survives, it belongs there. Rather than spending all that tax money on trying to eradicate something like japanese honeysuckle (which i love to watch flocks of waxwings feasting on), i suugest we spend those dollars on something useful. Genetic engineering! Think of the good that can come of that!

Take loosestrife... why not create a species that is even more invasive, but make it tasty to deer? Or a species of honey suckle that has watermelon flavored berries? Kudzu with huge orchid flowers that develop bananas? Dammit, make it into a cash crop! Zebra mussels? make 'em larger than cherrystones. I am amazed at how many people relish eating the guts of clams, they probably would love mussels too. Walking catfish? Ok, i am at a loss there. The only way to immprove on those is to glue a little tophat on them... so cute walking down the boulevard, struttin thier stuff.

Worrying about invasive species and non-native species is like worrying about global warming. What enviromental disaster? Think of it more like we are restoring the earth to it's pre-biological decline condition, before all that carbon got locked up in the earth. I want a steak from a cow the size of 7 elephants... bring it on!

LOL!
Poppa, are you on vacation this week? You have too much free time. heehee

Maybe we could breed not only a deer-tasty loosestrife, but also an elephant sized deer with marbled steaks? Also, breed it to respond to "here bambi!", so we can shoot them more safely?

Yummy!

Just a thought - maybe the person figured they would remain anonymous because they knew you wouldn't know who they were anyway, so why leave some random name? I could see leaving a note to someone that doesn't know me and not including my name without much thought about it.

And from an outsider's perspective, it seems that maybe the anon. person was trying to help by thinking maybe you hadn't heard the species is invasive (a little silly to think a nursery owner wouldn't know, but you never know...). Maybe this is a little 'glass half full' type of reasoning, but maybe they deserve the benefit of the doubt because they were trying to 'help' by leaving the pots in the first place.

Eddie's idea sounds pretty perfect to me.

Jack: looks like your neighboring state is getting hairy on this point:

Are you all aware that the "plant police" have their own post, "Native Plants." Seems they aren't happy to stay there and rant. I see they are over here too. They told me to leave their post and come here; so I did. Now that I've finished reading all the posts, I am certain of what I've felt for a long time. These people are not satisfied with their one little niche - they also want to control where we live, the materials we use to build our buildings, the fuel we use, hunting & fishing, and what we are supposed to eat. Wonder what they think we should eat? Do you get the idea they could be dangerous?

Actually, they have a whole forum :).

The tread ds is talking about is actually pretty amusing. I wouldn't consider them dangerous, though they can get pretty uppity when baited (and don't we all?).

Yes, baited for sure and ds goes a great job of it.
But you missed her the one below.

Gosh, ds, I wasn't aware that it was considered dangerous to be a fan of native plants AND to work in the green industry.

Gotta run now - I'm roasting a little culver's root for my lunch and I don't want to burn it.

LOL!

V.

Ooooh, save some for me V!

BTW: notice that suddenly it really is the NPF folks dominating this thread (me included)? Truly prophetic :). Maybe we need a new forum: "the professional gardeners who happen to like native plants forum".

Why not just start your own threads here, NPF folks? We're all here to learn and that requires expanding our boundaries, questioning our prejudices, asking questions and yessss healthy debate.

I sell a LOT of invasives - but none in violation of the Washington State noxious weed list (some of the invasives I grow - Jerusalem artichoke, mints, bamboo, etc.) I ALWAYS tell my customers about the invasiveness of my plants and tell them how they can keep them in control. Sometimes the more I tell them about the invasiveness or spread of the plant, the more they want them (I guess they are figuring they are getting their money's worth)

How I would respond to an anonymous letter would depend on whether it's just a plant that likes to grow or whether it's actually on the state's noxious weed list and I shouldn't be growing it (I make sure all the plants I grow and sell are in compliance with my state's laws)

If you are growing a plant in violation of your state's laws, then the anonymous letter writer was correct --- why would they want to deal with retaliation from someone who obviously doesn't comply or have regards with state law?

If the plants you grow are not on your state's 'do not grow or sell' list, then just shrug it off as someone who has a personal agenda or doesn't know what they are talking about.

State lists of "noxious weeds" or prohibited invasives are aimed at plants prone to spread in the wider environment, not those that may overwhelm their neighbors in a garden.

Local invasiveness (i.e. by rhizomatous-type spread, as opposed to seed-borne distribution over longer distances) is a separate issue, but one that fosters confusion among some gardeners, and apparently among some in the nursery industry as well.

yeah - and some nurseries propagate and sell plants on the class 'A' noxious weed lists too - either intentionally or ignorantly - they are still prohibited plants and they ARE being sold by "reputable" nurseries who SHOULD know better.

Is there any chance the letter-writer is an employee????

I've pointed out to three nurseries that they were selling a terribly invasive weed, Porcelain Berry, and I got looks of mind your own business, indifference, and I'll tell my boss.

How do you get the message through?

{{gwi:1163477}}

Just have to tell you, hayseedman, that my jaw dropped when I looked at your photo.

Seeing is believing. I'm watching over my shoulder right now...

V.

Hayseedman,
Yikes. Imagine garden centers in Georgia selling kudzu as garden plants. That's what this reminds me of. I have porcelain berry growing on my fence, alongside a native Concord grape vine. The porcelain berry grows much faster than even the most aggressive grape vine.

There was a big article in the Washington Post last weekend about porcelain berry and other vines...I'm suprised anyone actually buys the stuff! OTOH, I saw a variegated one in a garden a couple years ago...I'm guessing the green variety will spring from its seeds soon enough.

Jack, I can understand why an anonymous note would make you uncomfortable, and I can also understand why you don't want to name the plant because it's irrelevant to the discussion. However, if it is on your state's noxious list, should you as a responsible citizen continue to offer it for sale? If it is not on the list then there's no issue. Here's what I would do. Print out the "Severe Threat" list for your state from the Invasives.org website Vaccinium provided, post it in a prominent location and post below it your "Company Policy" that your customers will never find one of these plants for sale at your nursery. How many of your customers have actually ever seen that list? And, how many confuse "invasive" with "aggressive spreaders or seeders"? You'll be educating them. If a customer questions the invasiveness of a plant you sell, you can show them the list and explain the difference.

I have never seen and never expect to see Japanese Honeysuckle, Kudzu, Tree of Heaven, Mimosa, Common Privet, or Chinese Privet for sale at any nursery in the South. However, I have purchased Variegated Porcelain Berry and have it growing on an arbor. That plant is not on my state's invasive list, but is on "Watch List B, plants that are severe problems in surrounding states, but have not been reported in Tennessee". I'll watch it.

Interestingly enough on "Watch List A: Exotic plants that naturalize and may become a problem in the future", among others are listed Buddleia, Cosmos, Rose of Sharon, Spearmint, Peppermint, and Grape Hyacinth. All of these are commonly found in every nursery and most gardens.

Where do you draw the line? Do you refuse to sell any plant that is listed on not only the Severe Threat List, but also the lower threat lists the watch lists? That's your decision and your conscience.

I've found here in Florida (where our invasive species list is one of the most extensive, if not THE most extensive, in the country) that most of the invasive species that are banned from propagation and sale somehow damage the environment or property.

Most of the invasives on our "A" list are not banned from propagation or sale, because they are not normally sold in nurseries, and are only damaging to the environments where they are commonly found, and do not spread outside these areas readily without help from humans.

On the other hand, species that are readily spread by birds and other animals, such as the Brazilian Pepper, are prohibited from propagation and sale, however, they are not banned from the landscape if they happen to come up in your yard or are already there. (BTW, I think they should be, but that's too "Big Brother-ish", I guess)

I have a neighbor with two Indian Rosewood trees in his yard. We suspect that their roots are damaging the foundation to my house. These trees have been banned from sale for years. They come up everywhere, even on the opposite side of the house from where they are growing. Their roots grow far above the ground, and I actually have to weed eat around them to keep from damaging my mower.

I asked if I could somehow force him to remove the trees, but was told I couldn't because trees existing in landscapes at the time they were prohibited are not subject to the law. Now how stupid is that? The tree is damaging my property, but I can't have it removed because it's been there damaging the property for 20 years.

Jack - my opinion is that this comes down to one thing: You have been "shot" by a sniper. A sniper is someone who doesn't want honest face to face conversation because they "know better" than everyone else and don't have to defend their position. High-handed,cowardly, and mostly malicious. You can do 2 things: 1. Fingerprint the pots and track the no-goods down, or 2. PUT THE WHOLE THING OUT OF YOUR MIND. Good luck and grow what people want to buy. (In my yard oaks are invasive.) Sally

anyone knows what plants attract bees?

What say we start a new forum to continue discussion of these issues, and of the plants involved? I just proposed one to the GardenWeb site management; you can add your request by using the link below.

Is it up to the gardeners to keep their plants in check? oh, i get it. it lot easier just blame on the plants for their agressive growth, than get off the couch and go gardening. just a thought, tuanh

Awful lot of heat and not much light. A few interesting comments from both sides, but mostly a lot of people talking past each other once the topic changed.

It is now about six months since Jack recieved his note; I doubt he's losing any sleep over the incident by now (Jack, if you are, seek professional help immediately :-).

I'll withhold my opinion, others have spoken for me.

(isn't that convenient, no one can tell who I was castigating or what side I'm on)

Ryan

tuanh:

The problems with 'invasive' plants spreading is seldom due to lazy gardeners. Some seeds are made to float in the air, and in some cases they blow for miles (pampass grass on the Gulf Coast and California Coast). Birds can spread seeds for miles (Himilayan Blackberry). Some seeds are really good at floating their way out of gardens, down storm drains, and into waterways (Acacia in the South, Sesbania in California). Many are hitchhikers (brome grasses in the West). Then there are the plants that survive being chopped up by reproducing from the smallest pieces and are sometimes spread by getting tangled under vehicles and falling off the bottom of the vehicle in the woods and rooting in place (Vinca major).

This is a great thread - despite a few bits of misinformation and some strong personal biases. Regarding invasive plants, I think that we gardeners have to behave in a responsible manner or the government will step in and legislate what is legal and illegal. Isn't it better if gardeners and horticulture professionals work to control aggressive plants, ourselves?

I know this is out of the blue but I stumbled accross your post while searching for something else.

Each state publishes a noxious weed list. There are some on the list that are illegal to propagate or sell. If your plant is anything other than one of the "most wanted" on your state's list, you have every legal right to grow and sell it.

If you have a nursery, you should be inspected every once in a while for compliance on such things. The inspector will settle the matter for you.

Regards,

FireVicar
Woodinville, WA