Congrats! The first step is always the hardest but also the most satisfying. If you are pleased and the customer is pleased then that's what it's all about.

a note: you've done well with a limited canvas to paint on. If there is one challenge that's come up too many times over the years it's trying to make a nice creation out of 'the strip' next to the house,etc. that some home owners are aghast to break out of. There's an inhibition against breaking out into the lawn and creating some gardening space. They are afraid things will 'get out of hand'. Your wife has done a fine job at meeting this challenge.

"If you are pleased and the customer is pleased then that's what it's all about. "

Words of wisdom and I agree.

When your installing plastic edging if you want it straight it needs to be straight .. also in my own opinion it should sit lower in the ground the top of the edging flush with the top of the grass roots .. Are you using edging sold in rolls ? .. it's better I find to buy this type of edging in lengths ... easier to keep straight and don't have the "wrinkly shirt" look. It's also a bit of work to install this kind of edging ... not a lot of bang for the buck .. Are there other options in your area of the world ? In my area cement curbing can be installed at $2.50 a linear foot installed .. while this sounds more expensive then good plastic edging .. like $16. dollars for twenty feet not installed after adding labor the two are very close and the cement curbing gives a much nicer impact. What works in your area .. I don't know ?

I like what you did with the triangle .. maybe a slight curve out would of been a bit gentler on the eyes ?

Nice job with the photos !! Hope your new potential clients see them .. make sure they see the last shot ! Keep that client happy .. but :

"Total labor = $905.00 ($15/hour) It took us 2 days of buying materials and 3 long days of labor. "

I assume you want financial comments ?

That's VERY LEAN ... What about overhead ? Profit ? That $15 an hour might cover overhead for a very small start up like yours ... Looks like $7.50 an hour each for the week ? .. Lean ... very lean .. you would both have to kick that in for overhead leaving you both zero for the week. So there is a lot that has to be done on the financial end.

More like $2800. to $3200. for that job .. based on your info. Will a client pay that much ? So you see you need to start adding more value into the job and work more efficiently.

I'll bet you could cut that time in half ? LOL .. no kidding.

At the right price you could both earn a decent wage for all that work ... put some money into your business for expenses and take some extra as profit ... that's for being in business.

Nevertheless .. your out their and made it work... that's more then 98% of the people that say they are going into business.

Best wishes !!

Good Day ...

speed is something that comes with confidence and familiarity.

It probably would have taken me 6 hours to complete all of that work.... I figure this is because I don't have to do the 'stand back and ponder' type of thing. Of course I probably would have spent an additional 2hours talking with the customer, but anyway.

other than that, what mohave kid said....

good job and keep working, don't get discouraged, this is tough work, and it's even tougher when its slow and there is no work, but if you keep the faith, good things will happen.

drew

Things like concrete curbing and vinyl fencing & planters, etc. are nice until you want to make a change and then they pose their own problems. I can rip out and replace a wooden board..build a new gate on to a wooden fence and similar things. But not with vinyl. I can move a wooden garden tie a couple inches, build it up in height a couple inches afterwards, or modify a plastic edging to accomodate some simple add on. But a continuous concrete edging it is there to stay. I admit to making a mistake in a job now and then and like to be able to undo and redo a mistake pronto. This is sometimes no more than modifying the shape of a curve or increasing the height to accomodate more soil. I use screws instead of nails wherever possible and 'zip zip, voila' change done.

What was the total bill to the customer for a weeks work for two people (partners in a business)and the materials, happy? The design was probably given away so we can discount that and the quality of the design we can discuss elsewhere if you want.
Charging by the hour is a mugs game, you start at eight and work really hard for the next six hours and forty five minutes, do you bill for six at $15 and one at $11.25? Or do you work really slow and make it two X eight hours?
If this installation had taken my bunch as long to complete none of them would have a job but if I had to price it out the quote for doing the job as done (ie five days plus $700 of material) would be $4,500.00. On the other hand it would have taken us only one day and the quote would be more like $2100.00 plus tax, once again assumming that the design has no value. If the design (including driving a client around to look at plants) is to be an addition then you have to add a bit more.
What are you doing next week?

Thanks for all the input on the job.
Again, this was done by just my wife and I. We had no other help.
We met with the client and talked about what she wanted to do and did a little brainstorming.
We then spent some time putting together the plan.
We met with her again to go over the details and give her the estimate on materials and labor. (We met the $700 materials budget to the penny, and went a little over what we had planned for labor.)
Labor included the time it took to collect the materials as well as the installation.
All of our work was done by hand, no power equipment or day laborers. The work could have not been done any faster than we did it. We didn't spend time standing around and pondering what to do next. We followed the plan we had.
I realize that we were low on the side on the per hour labor, but this was our first job for someone other than ourselves, and we plan on charging more for the next job.
As for the comments about using concrete....we used what the client requested, nothing more. This was her money that we spent and we gave her exactly what she expected.

And, the good news is that we are meeting with her neighbor this week to plan some work for them. Yeah!!!!

Notice that everyone is quoting you a total amount. Time and materials is as INK indicated, a mug's game. To make a living at this business you need to charge more for your work. The average hourly charge to a client in my area for straight labor is about $40/hr with skilled labor more than that and a foreman more than that. This assumes that the actual laborer is making about 1/4-1/3 of that. Materials are marked up as well. Every hour, plant, bucket full of compost is charged for. Don't sell your service cheaply or you will be out of business before you're in it. Once you have some experience under your belt, you will be able to estimate the time a job will take, with a plant list you can easily calculate plant costs. Shop your local wholesalers to find out the prices of other materials and mark them up as well.
Good luck--get some liabilty insurance!

Try reading Ownen Dell's book. It is as valuable a tool as a good pair of pruners, and will help you understand the business side of the industry.

Well, I guess we did a good enough job with our first customer, because her neighbors just hired us to work on their lawn.
We're still doing it by the hour + cost of materials, but we raised our rates to $30/hr.
Still on the low side, but it's good enough for now.
We'll see how this goes and how many referrals we get.
I don't think I'm going to invest in a lot of extras just yet seeing as how this is just a part time gig. I still have my full time job, and the wife goes back to school at the end of the summer.
Thanks for the advice.

Silly me, I thought the heading of this forum read differently So this is an amateur moonlighting in professional territory is it? In which case the work is badly done underpriced and serves only to undermine those of us who do not have another job or are on holiday from school, how dare you you. You were dishonest in not stating what you have just stated upfront on a forum for professionals. I feel insulted by your attitude.

Something for you to chew on, Mr.Ink:

"A profession is an occupation that requires extensive training and the study and mastery of specialized knowledge, and usually has a professional association, ethical code and process of certification or licensing. Examples are accounting, law, medicine, finance, the military, the clergy and engineering.

Classically, there were only three professions: ministry, medicine, and law. These three professions each hold to a specific code of ethics, and members are almost universally required to swear some form of oath to uphold those ethics, therefore "professing" to a higher standard of accountability. Each of these professions also provides and requires extensive training in the meaning, value, and importance of its particular oath in the practice of that profession.

Sociologists have been known to define professionalism as self-defined power elitism or as organised exclusivity along guild lines, much in the sense that George Bernard Shaw characterised all professions as "conspiracies against the laity". Sociological definitions of professionalism involving checklists of perceived or claimed characteristics (altruism, self-governance, esoteric knowledge, special skills, ethical behavior, etc.) became less fashionable in the late 20th century.

A member of a profession is termed a professional. However, professional is also used for the acceptance of payment for an activity, in contrast to amateur. A professional sportsperson, for example, is one who receives payment for participating in sport, but sport is not generally considered a profession."
--Wikipedia

I was part of the art therapy community in the early '70's when we were going thru the complex rites of becoming recognized as a profession. An interesting term to be bantied about.

Well-trained and well-schooled gardeners and landscape designers can also do shabby, underpriced, don't-quit-your-day-job work when just starting out. With a bit of success and encouragement, they may reach for training, education, apprenticeship, etc.

Ginger

Hmmmm.......I think you could lighten up a tad, Ink. Everyone has to start somewhere and the OP made it very clear that this was a first attempt.

Yes, it may not be up to your standards (or mine), but I'm not all that proud to show off my first gigs at this point in my career, either. And I didn't charge the same then that I do now with umpteen jobs and many years under my belt.

It's a start and I'm sure provided an amazing learning experience. Whether or not the designer and crew (wife and hubby?) can legitimately call themselves professionals is a subject of another discussion, but I'd bet very good money that a whole lot of us out there started in just this same, very modest manner.

And much can be said for the client's opinion - they are the ultimate judge of the success of the project. If they are happy and satisfied with the work and believe they got good value for their dollar, then it is a job well-done, regardless of our more experienced, "professional" opinions.

INK.....#^&$You! @&%$*!
How'd you do on your first ever job? HUH!
Would you quit your full time job in order to persue a line of work that you didn't know if you'd make a living at it first?
Or would you just throw caution to the wind and go for it?

I'm not about to put all my eggs in the landscaping business unless I can count on enough business to pay my bills and support my family first.

And, as for "the work is badly done underpriced and serves only to undermine those of us who do not have another job or are on holiday from school, how dare you you", I'll take the satisfied smile of my very pleased customer over your opinion anyday.

happy, I think it looks great! I'm quite impressed. If you and your wife were in my area, I'd ask if available to do mine. You both should be proud! Good Job!

Ginger: you were once interested in history and yet you seem to have forgotten ours or are you being contentious in suggesting that I am equating a gardener or a landscaper with a doctor? The opinion of what we do (our profession)is so lowly regarded, any one can do it: a student, a part time whatever and some do it it for that perceived value. This is what I think has happened here albeit with the best intentions. One day, if these two people get off and running, they will see that they were naieve. I would like to see more pride in what we do (No, not just anyone can do it)that's all.

I remain interested in history, as I know you are--thought you would appreciate the hx of the professions, Geo. B. Shaw quote, etc.

Just trying to point out that landscape gardening is not a true profession, and hence, the poster should not have hellfire rained on him for daring to attempt our work with little training or experience.

You say "I would like to see more pride in what we do (No, not just anyone can do it)that's all." I think the posters have much pride in their work; however, they have yet to develop an aesthetic eye. You would undoubtedly be of better service to our trade/profession if you had used an avuncular approach and mentored them. You are probably the most knowlegeable person on this forum (along with laag).

The poster did say that the work was not "superfantastic" and closed with "What do you think?" Can you start over again and give them a (gentle) critique from your position of extensive, in-depth experience in garden design?

Best regards,
Ginger

here is my gentle critique:

don't use so many annuals. The customer will be pleased this year, but that happiness will dissappear next april when they realize 70% of the plants they had are not going to be back.

I prefer shrub/perrenials to be stand alone, and keeping certain areas in the beds for annual color.
This makes it much easier to irrigate, and also makes the massed planting of a few flats of petunias more impressive.

Also, I'm not there so I can't really tell... but in the future make sure to put those stepping stones pretty close.
Most people space them out with an aggressive walk. Most people kinda plod along slowly.
reminds me of someone I worked with once. He was 6ft 6inch tall, and always had to make me get the stepping stones set :-)

Drew

Thanks for the input Deeproots.
We really didn't want to use so many annuals, but the budget didn't all for the cost of just as many perennials. The client really wanted a lot of flowers. You know, instant gratification. We'll plan with her for next year when the greenhouses are trying to get rid of their stock of annuals for the fall.
As for the walkway, it probably doesn't show up in the pics that well. We really did spend quite a bit of time with her to make sure that her stride fit just right.
She's a little lady and we didn't want her to either have to take giant or little bitty steps. She must have walked it about 15 times to get it just right.

I commend you for actually listening to the client and achieving their expectaions. This is a great start. If you were in my part of the country I'd certainly recommend your services on these types of projects.

You are particularly wise in not getting over your head or investing in too much at this time. This will allow you to develop skills and, more importantly, develop a good reputation that will lead to more and more satisfying projects for both you and your clients.

Your positive attitude is refreshing and a big plus in an industry that has too many grumpy people and often a poor attitude towards clients.

Thank you Greenstar.
My wife has the talent for the design and plants, but I've been in sales for over 15 years.
If you think about it, almost everything is sales of some sort.
While I don't believe that the "customer is always right", you do have to try to give them what they expect. You have to see their yard through their eyes.

Just a few thoughts. I think your wife does have a good "eye". I see you thinking things through and suspect that down the line you might take more initiative with guiding the clients to go that step past what they think they want and letting you "fly" a little. It's a nice "first job". Think you are brave for running it past us.

Good on you for taking before and after shots. It not only serves as a good start on a portfolio, but you can look back on them and see yourselves as you progress with your own style. I've supplied some landscapers over the years. Some of them just faded away, but a few of them have blossomed and have more work than they know what to do with. Those are the ones who learn a little from each job.

Don't call your wife a "hippy". roflmao. Make that a hippie. She might bonk you with a drain spade.

INK.....#^&$You! @&%$*!
"You would undoubtedly be of better service to our trade/profession if you had used an avuncular approach and mentored them."
I am up for that. The mentoring that is, but I have a feeling that that it was group hug that was sought. Hence INK.....#^&$You! @&%$*!

I agree that *&^%$% was uncalled for. As a group, the responses were kinder than usual. I didn't pick up any advise was really solicited either, regardless of how it was phrased.

It's a pleasant presentation. It isn't as polished as it will be someday, but it is prettier than the typical first job. I think she/they have potential. I can tell you from experience, however, the skin is gonna have to get a little thicker. Sooner or later, there is going to be a customer who isn't smiling so broadly and hopefully they won't get the *&^%% response. I remember the first time I worked my butt off on what I thought was a beautiful design for a customer whom I really liked and priced it lower than I normally would have. Her face screwed up and I KNEW she wasn't pleased. I got paid, but the nonverbals cut to the quick. You have to have feedback, and you are not always going to like it.....from peers, from mentors, and eventually from customers. How you accept it and what you do with that information is going to make a difference in how you are perceived, and how much you allow yourself to grow in your work. It won't always be sugar coated, either. That doesn't make it less valuable, especially if it is from somebody who has already been down that road. Good Luck.

It is a diverse field. Anyone can participate. The quote "not everyone can do what we do" may or may not be true depending on how "what we do" is defined.

I think that most people in the field could easily say "not everybody can do what I do".

Let's face it folks. There is no line that you cross from doing amatuer work to doing professional work. It is all in the perspective of who is making the observation.

I just got a trade journal and the feaure article was about a "professional" landscaper who is never satisfied and all about quality control and doing the best in everything. He is standing on some horrid masonry as if he conquered a mountain.

I do appreciate Constructive criticism, however, what Ink said was far from being constructive.
He got mad because I said that I didn't plan on investing a whole lot into this business before I saw whether or not I could make a living at it.
I "insulted" him for being an amature on the "Professional" (only?) forum.
His comment deserved my scorne.
If he had offered advise on how to keep my edging from being wrinkled, that would have been constructive and appreciated.

"I know that what we did isn't super fantastic," "What do you think?"
Is the above where I asked for a group hug?

If the level of advice you are looking for is how to keep plastic edging from wrinkling we may be further away from my perception of how to improve the public image of our industry than I thought. Andrew, are you saying that as long as someone pays and they are happy to pay then this is the criterion or standard that we should work towards? That no objective standard, like a wall not falling down nor a design not being sustainable has any credibility. Are you saying that instant gratification is the standard. Of course there is a line between well executed work and good intentioned crap, if this difference is not evident it is because we have worked to a standard based on a race to the bottom line and not on a standard set by crafts people. Not everyone can do it, the 'it' is a dedication, a calling if you like. When someone chooses to gazump the training and the experience and works the way that has been described here tax free, insurance free, profit free this undermines us all and gives an impression that anyone who does 'gardening'is the same. These people are not my competition but the competition of struggling young people trying to make the work they do attain a real value. As for constructive criticism of the work shown and presented as being "isn't (not) super fantastic" you are right it isn't.

Oh my god, I'll never try to do landscaping again.
You've totally proven to me that I can never do anything worthwhile.
I might as well go kill myself.
Not!

I don't need, nor am I going to ask for your opinion on my future endeavors.
You just keep on being threatend by amatures that make your hallowed profession look bad, and I'll just keep on making the customers that I have happy. How's that?
You're pathetic.
I'm done here. Good day.

No Ink, it is a digression on my part, or more an observation. I wrote a very good (in my opinion) piece for this thread this morning. I finshed up and went to work. Apparently I only hit the preview and never the "post message" as I have done many times. It went something like this:

If it is honest constructive criticism at a professional level that you truly want, I would have to agree that Ink is pretty much on the money. As to the assumption that Ink or anyone else who makes a viable living in this field without benefit of a supplemented income from a second job or a spouse would have done amatuer quality work as his first "professional work", I would suggest that this would be incorrect. It is incorrect because before he and others did their first professional work, they worked and were taught by others at a fairly high level. They, or should I say we, were trained and developed knowledge, skills, and abilities under the guidance of others who were successful before we became "professional".

By starting out as a "professional" and learning from only yourselves, you are essentially the blind leading the blind. I do not mean that as an insult, but only to point out that when your teacher is yourself, you have little more knowledge that you can glean from your teacher than you already have since you are one in the same.

You posted on a "professional" forum. This is a declaration that you believe yourself to be a professional or that you want to be critiqued at such a level. Well, that's what you got. The same post would have been met with group hugs on the design forum, but you put it here.

Diplomacy rules; I like what you say laag and calliope has weighed in with some useful stuff so how can we turn what happycthulhu sees as an attack on his personae into something that becomes a learning?

We really are a welcoming bunch. There's plenty of work at every level for everyone--even unsuspecting beginners. Most of us take ourselves and our work very seriously. We realize that it takes more than one project to perfect our craft. All of us welcome critique although we may not like what those critiquing us have to say. We put our tails between our legs, and if, just if, we are really serious about perfecting our craft we sulk a bit while thinking about the validity of the advise we've recieved.

So, Happy--what advise did you really receive? If you look at it objectively you'll see that what was said above wasn't unfair and was meant to help you perfect your craft. Here's what you were told vs. what you heard: you sold your work too cheaply, there were other ways to design the project that you could have explored, some of the design was clumsy or awkward, there were some techinical details that could have been better on the installation side, perhaps the stepping stones were too close together for a regular stride, the plant compositions were nice but could be even better, you would benefit from some training outside of the amateur arena, and...you have a start, there's still a long, long way to go before you're truely a professional.

If you object to how those points were made, thicken up your skin--not all clients will be as nice as your first one. Not all criticism will be couched in polite terms--but all of it is useful.

I would like to know what end result the client would have gotten for $1605 (materials and labor) if someone like Ink, Laag, gardengal, ms. rumphius, etc., had done the job. What are the alternatives with this kind of small budget?

If you walk into a store or a restaurant and ask for an evening dress or a full course meal for 5 bucks you aren't going to get very far, either. The spending expectation has to be above a certain minimum or the desired result is just not possible. Costs are real.

Spunky, I think that is a really good question and topic. What ARE the alternatives for people who have budget restraints, but still need help getting their landscape in good order. There are ways, actually.

Most homeowners can do simple installations if their beds are prepared well. My daughter is working with such a client now. She presently has tight little beds directly against her foundation and several bargain shrubs from a box store in unsuitable locations. With the budget she has, the emphasis shall be on expanding and preparing her existing beds for a more natural look and the "backbones" installed. IOW, several suitable key shrubs upon which she can elaborate and a tree. It is explained to clients like that a landscape should look presentable from day one, but can evolve over time into its potential. A good design is included for them to keep, so that they may purchase material on the bargain when those sales do occur they may install themselves, or hire to be done.

The thing is, like stated, it's the plan and design end and the hardscaping so necessary to build on which the money should be spent for. The rest can be installed by anyone (including skillful amateurs) after the fact. It isn't instant gratification, but can be an alternative to those who need one. If a property has a sophomoric plan to build on, sooner or later, somebody has to address the poor planning. That being said, a job like that often finds itself on the lower rung of the ladder for busy and successful landscapers, but can be done quickly and between larger jobs.

I have said it many times. This is a diverse field. There is a huge diversity of what people want done and how much they want to commit to that and an equally diverse group of characters who are willing to fill in those niches.

This contrasts greatly with the notion that a lot of people have about setting standards of practice in this field.

I believe that if there is an opportunity for someone to do low skilled work or poor service for short money and they want to take it, they should be allowed to take it. After all, it is a diverse field. However, the people who want to pay short money for unskilled people have to understand that the results will most likely not exceed that standard. Buyer beware.

You live by the free market, you die by the free market.

All I've been able to see from the start is a series of boxes with "Oops! My Image for this link is no longer here - Hosted at Photobucket.com."

It is a bit like American Idol when you post a picture to try to impress people. The expectation is stardom and accolades, but you will be scrutinized closely. You may win love and popularity, or you might not.

laag gained a certain amount of fame or notoriety for his motor car analogies that mostly worked. Taking a leaf from that book; did you know that the best bicyle money can buy does not touch the figure you would have to pay for a Maserati? Did you know that you can buy a consumer motor car with a top speed of 230 mph or a bicycle that only weighs 19 lbs? Does this answer Spunky's question?

Spunky, you have a good point. It follows what I say over and over. It is a diverse field.

To answer your question from above: The $1605 would not have gone for plastic edging, flowers, and mulch, or the placement of them. But, I would not have gotten the job either. A budget like that needs to be directed to the materials and labor and not to paying for design services which is what I do. The consumer did the right thing in hiring a small gardener rather than a professional designer as (s)he had no major issues to resolve, some simple goals, and a limited budget. The money has to be applied as directly as possible to building the garden. To hire a consultant/designer would only cripple the limited budget further.
I am more of a site planner and tree & shrub landscaper than a flower gardener and would be a poor match for this client at any budget. There are many much better flower bed designers posting here than I am, although I'm not inept. It is not my niche and recommend others when approached to do it (as I did earlier this week).
The field is diverse and I am a big believer that it is foolish to try to be as diverse as the field. It is much wiser to define an enjoyable and viable niche and develop those skills which apply to that niche, than to try to be all things to everybody.

All things to everybody happens when you need the work to keep the cash flowing.

Well said bboy. Sometimes it starts that way with some folks and it becomes a habit that they never shake. They call it hitting the hump. I call it small landscaper syndrome. They try to add more and more services (read: more equipment), but can not manage more people. This increases their overhead without increasing production significantly. ... so, they buy the next piece of equipment to get over the hump - perhaps a hydroseeder or bark blower. This is followed by the string of complaints of not being able to get or keep good help while at the same time there are 5 companies within 5 miles that each employ over 30 guys. More services equals more people management. People management is not a skill that everyone has.

Someone once told me that the difference between an amateur and a professional is: A professional gets paid. It appears to me that Happy qualifies as a pro.

Congratulations, Will, on the first job and the thrill of word-of-mouth advertising that is securing the 2nd job. Apparently your client thinks you're professional as well.

I really wish I could see the pictures. But I'm getting "Oops, this image is no longer available". Perhaps you could email me the pictures. I'd love to see what you've been up to. And keep it up. You'll get better with experience. And as long as the client is happy and you're happy, who cares what anyone else thinks? I'm proud of you!

NancyAnn