this happens...
I give them a portion of the job.
yard irrigation for intance, I'll do the digging, laying of pipe and whatnot. All the skill labor. I'll let him cover up the trenches for X amount of dollars.

same idea with mulching or something similiar.

I saw this sign at a garage once and I think it may give you a useful perspective:
Basic hourly rate $60.00 an hour.
If customer wants to watch $75 an hour.
If customer wants to help $95.00 an hour.

Let them Mulch- Bid everthy but the mulch

One option if you really want to retain this job is to up your rates and do it on time and materials basis.
You will probably make out better financially in the long run .
Also you should delineate exactly what responsibilities are to be his and yours. -- all this extra paperwork takes time and it is time that you should be charging for.

If his responsibilites impact your project in a way that you will be held up or the quality of your work cannot be warrantied because of unmonitored work then you also should mention that you are not offering any warranty .

I think how you negotiate on this really depends on how much you want or need the job.
You can have it work for you if you write up a good solid contract. ... and that is it in a nut shell - a good contract that encompasses all the warranties and lack there of and also how it impacts your scheduling ect.... - a good ironclad contract.

I get this a fair bit. I will encourage the homeowner to do the demolition. It's a nasty, hot, dirty job that I have to charge a fortune for because of disposal costs. Also, they can get it finished up before I get on site.
I always specify that when I get there I want a clear level site, completely free of debris and that if I have to drop back and so some demo, I will charge them extra for it.
Having them do mulch is also a good idea, but make sure you train them how to do it.

Bid these sorts of jobs as time and materials rather than lump sum. Maybe have them do all the demolition to see if they are serious and capable of really taking on the work and giving meaningful help. If they are merely trying to save money but not really competent to do real work, then I wouldn't enter into this type of job.

Having said that, I have many clients that undertake parts of the job themselves, and/or assist as directed by me. This way I can still guarantee that work standards are met, and they can contribute as much or as little help as they desire. It's really important to make sure you are both on the same page both time, effort and budget wise, or there will be problems. Some of my most enjoyable gardens have been built with lots of client hands on assistance, and usually a friendship also developes.

I work using a model similar to Bahia's.`What I find most often, tho', is that the clients interested in helping just to save $$ peter out after a short time. Not really that interested, just trying to save a few $$. After an hour or so of hard labor in the hot sun they go back in the house to answer the phone/get a drink/etc and don't reappear. Kind of self-selecting. The ones that can do it and mean business are usually competent, take direction well, and are good to work with.

I estimate the number of hours the job will take minus the tasks that the homeowner does--for that reason I let them know that their work has to be a discreet piece such as prep work, mulching, planting out all shrubs, whatever, as long as I can easily subtract this piece of the work from my estimate. Also, I find it difficult to manage/critique certain client/employers --too much role diffusion -- so I find for the "moneysaver" types it is better to have them do their part when we are not there. I try to give them something simple and easy to do.

I find that the customer helping out works best with people who are true gardeners but can't do it all themselves because of illness or age. They work along side as much as possible and are enthusiastic.

It's least successful when the client wants to save $$$, has little knowledge or experience in gardening, and, worst of all, is volunteering another family member to help. As in 'Oh, my wife isn't working right now, she really wants to help to defray costs." Or 'My teenagers will move all that stone to the backyard for you." Right . . .

I would consider paying the client a credit of $5.50/hour for their work, but they can only take breaks when my guys do (10 min. at 10 am, 30 min at 11:30 am and 10 min. at 2 pm).

Otherwise, I agree with the above comments. They can either do tear out or mulch removal. I've clients attempt both, but 50% of them end having us finish their attempt.

I have a new job where the customer wants to work.
he doesn't expect to get paid (he's an estate lawyer) money isn't the issue, as he's letting me do ALOT of extras. Plus I'm charging ALOT more due to the job being 110miles away, but he insisted on hiring me (I guess who better to landscape a woodland than a fern grower).
He seems like a hardworking guy, as he's been felling trees damaged in the hurricane (he's in his mid sixties).

He said he wants to help just for the experience and to have something to do.
Strange arrangement... I'll be happy to have his help, but I wonder if there isn't a catch somewhere.
ie. "if it seems too good to be true, thats because it is"

dp

Things must be a lot more casual here. I welcome a homeowner getting involved. There's usually a lot of shoveling topsoil, gravel, compost, etc. I'll just factor their labor in at 10/hour in blocks of a half day. Other jobs they can help with are moving dug up sod...picking rocks...etc. I've also used a few of these guys on future jobs.

I don't have them planting perennials, hedges, laying sod etc. or doing any other finishing work. Not because I'm worried about the result but because me or my guys can do it in a fraction of the time of a novice.

Just a note: I've made some good contacts with guys who have helped out with the work. One guy is a sheet metal worker and he got me a new furnace wholesale, came over one Saturday and installed the furnace for free. Cost me a case of beer and I saved around $700. I gave him a bunch of plants in thanks and know who to call the next time I have a problem.

I also allow my clients to help if they need to save money or want to be involved.Then I just don't add the work they do to the final bill.I give 1 bid w/two prices IE this much if he helps/ this much if he dosen't and I put in the contract that if the help stops,the regular charges for labor on that aspect of the work starts.Usual jobs are,clearing and prepping site,removing debri,digging holes,unloading material,cleaning up ,and staying out of my way..

$2 an hour to stay outta your way.

damn, why couldn't I have landed that job.... I'd work 24/7

Doing design work for people that do not have the means or commitment is a waste of time in my opinion. No one will be satisfied. Your design will be underbuilt at minimum, butchered more than likely, or not built at all (hopefully). They will be disappointed if they had the delusions. In the end, you may get paid for design work, but you will have not gained in reputation or portfolio material.

Why bother?

did you really get into the plant business to build your reputation and portfolio?

*whistles loudly*
fascinating.

dp

I did not do it to be spending time standing in front of people with a wish list and no realistic way to complete the project. I am not a social worker. There are people who want to work with the people that want to get their plants from the woods because they don't have any money types. That is fine.

I was told a very long time ago that once you do discount work, you are stuck doing discount work. I have seen that to be true. I was stuck in that rut many years ago, that is why I always remember who told me that and when it was told to me. I have lived and learned not to swim with an anchor on my neck.

Did I get into this field to build a reputation and portfolio? No, I build a reputation and portfolio to to stay in it and make it viable. I certainly did not get into it to put commitment and effort into projects for people that will not put realistic commitment into it themselves.

What's worked for me when I've had clients that have wanted to save money through "sweat equity" is that my crew will come in and do bed prep, and plant the large stuff, then the client can come along after we're gone and plant the rest of the plants. Any guarantee covers what we plant, and nothing else. I've never had a client request to work along side the crew. I don't know what I'd do if that were the case. For the most part, when I start telling my clients how to care for their landscape, or perennials, or whatever, they say, "what, me do it?"

Sally

It's hard to tell a Homeowner he or she CAN'T help on their own property,I mean they are paying for it. You can try to discourage it but hey,there is no way you can keep them from helping if they are helping for free is there?What are you gonna do call the cops on them?But if they are doing it to get a discount,you have a say so.Just make sure you get your $'s worth outa them,or fire them and they don't get a discount if not pulling their weight.I never said anything about two dollars an hour to stay out of my way.

I agree with INK. I actually had a customer on a tight budget for seasonal color. She only wanted to spend "x". I told her how much I could put in for that price. We discussed what types of annuals she wanted, where they would go, etc. Quick and easy little job....UNTIL we arrived and she wanted to supervise the layout. She wanted to "rob" 1 plant from this bed to put in a container, 3 plants from this bed to put in another, etc. Bottom line...a one hour job took three hours to plant. At the end, I told her (politely), "Mam, you hired be because you love the house across the street that we have done for three years....right? Yes. Well I lay that out twice a year with seasonal color and it looks great, right? Yes. I quoted you a price to do this job and because of your involvement, I lost money. You're kidding. No mam, I'm not. The plants cost me x, my crew for three hours cost me y....you paid me z. I lost money. She asks, why did you agree to do it for that price, then? BECAUSE I THOUGHT WE WOULD BE ABLE TO COME IN, LAY IT OUT AND PLANT IT. I DIDN'T PLAN ON STANDING AROUND WHILE YOU SCRATCH YOUR CHIN AND DECIDE WHERE YOU MIGHT WANT TO MOVE SOMETHING (THAT WAS ALREADY PLANTED). NEXT TIME YOUR PRICE IS $25 / FLAT IF WE DESIGN IT AND $75 / FLAT IF YOU HELP.

We haven't been back since.

Problems arise when a client fails to complete their part of the project to the standard you set or in a timely manner.

I only agree to this type of arrangement when its billed at time and materials. Keep the account up to date, if the project takes 4 weeks, bill them at the end of each week, and don't do further work until they pay the installment.

Clients underestimate how difficult the work is, and since they have limited landscaping skills, they are only suited to the more physically demanding portions of the job (cleanup, weeding, barking). After the first day on the job, they may disappear into the house for extended periods of time.

On a postive note, they find a new appreciation for you and the difficulty of the work. And you might enjoy the company.

When I finally let a client on a budget help, his whole attitude suddenly changed. He had never asked to help before, but frequently "watched" while we worked. One day I had to ask him to go inside because he was making my people nervous.

On our next planting day, a few months later, I staked out locations for 15G holes, and he dug them all. Did a good job. we came in the next day and planted, with he and his wife helping. We left them to do the mulching. The job went in beautifully, and the experience finally allowed the husband to understand the hard work that goes into an installation. I never expected it to go so well.

We did the job on a time & materials basis, and met the estimated hours almost exactly. Under the right circumstance, I would do it again, with a very clearly defined scope of work for the client.

Beware of the client who wants to "help" to save on the cost. I did some work last year for someone who wanted to "help" and I ended up telling him to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. It was a real fiasco. Not only did he drive me crazy by telling me how to do things.....he never shut up......One day (the last day, thank God), I pulled up and he had totally changed everything. He went out and bought all the urns himself because he got them cheaper....I found out the hard way that it is better to keep your business very professional.......

Some of these clients have been stuck behind a desk or traveling round the world for buisness reasons for all of their adult lives.
The want and sometimes need to get involved with something outside and it's only natural for them to want to help.
Most don't Really want to help to save money,it's just an exuse they make so
they can get out there and get their hands in the dirt.Just giving them a small unimportant task in their own garden project can greatly increase their appreciation for what you do for them,
also to help get them and keep them involved with their
outside selves.Once they become more aware of what's going on outside the door,they will call you for other work in the future cuz they get into it.And begin to think about the side and back areas too. You know what I mean

The constant battle over streamlining vs. diversifying. Some like to plant and build. Some like to plant, build and manage. Some like to plant, build, manage, and provide enrihment to their clients through communing with a shovel.

Yes, is there any doubt that this is a diverse field?

It is all good .... to somebody.