I start by applying Treflan & Devronal over the beds then incorperate shallowly. I transplant tomatoes then lightly cultivate until plants get too tall then apply right over the tops of the plants Sandea. This combo controls 90% of my weeds. I use Poast only if grasses become a problem. I used to use DM. But it can stunt plants if you use a little too much. Use DM only if you have a problem with nutsedges. Find somebody who knows what they are doing when the time comes to apply herbicides... Bob.

Thank you, Bob.

We considered Devrinol before buying DM. We decided on the latter because it can also be used on sweet corn. We may have made a mistake - stunting the plants does indeed scare me. Our licensed ag-pro is a range and cattle manager, and he only knows what the label says when it comes to tomatoes. Do you think I should hold the DM for the sweet corn and order Devrinol for the toms?

He has accurately calibrated the sprayer and has done the math to convert the DM per/acre label rates to square feet. Should we shallowly incorporate these pre-emergents? I have very sandy soil.

We do have purple nutsedge, but Sandea costs an arm and a leg! We've learned to live with it - looks bad but doesn't do much harm. Our main problem is several noxious grasses that literally choke-out the tomatoes - cover them up to the point where you can't even pick! Cages aggravate the problem.

What about DM with sweet corn, Bob? We plant Syngenta Attribute with the bt gene and cultivate for weeds.

Thanks for the warning not to exceed label rates. We don't have access to a commercial tomato grower - that's why I'm here. :-)If I error I'll do it on the side of too little rather than too much.

Appreciate your time, Jack

I live in Indiana and plant on clay loam , but on tomatoes I follow a very similar regimine as with strawberries. The thing you have to remember is corn is a grass tomatoes are a broad leaf, this may seem simple but when it comes to herbicide it is very important. My panting procedure is as follows plow your ground in fall, plant winter wheat as a smother crop , spring bush hog wheat wait for anything green to pop then spray glyphosphate , plow under residue spray pre-emergint of choice wait a week then plant. If you have any glyphosphate resistant weeds add something like post , also add some 2 4 D at the pre spray to really burn those pesky broad leaves. As for weeds the most important thing is to smack them before they start. A couple seasons of this with dedicated winter smother crops will start to deplete your grounds seed bank. I hope Ive been some help
Josh

I like to take advantage of multi use herbicides to save money. Its always interesting to find herbicides that work on two diverse plants like tomatoes and sweetcorn. Sandea is one of these. Up front cost seems very high but we use only a 1/4-1/2 ounce per acre but it can be used on tomatoes all types of squash and sweetcorn. Devrinol label is quite large and covers many popular vegetable crops besides maters making is very economical. I use DM and atrazine on Attribute corn it works very well even at high rates... Bob.

Very, very helpful. I really appreciate this. Thanks to you both. I'm going to get some Devrinol in addition to the DM I have. I'm thinking about Sandea - if I can get my head past that price tag. :-)

Thanks again Bob and Josh.

Jack

Sandea postemergent heerbicide application rate for tomatoes is 0.5 oz/acre. My tomato plots are each 2500-3000 sq ft. My tank sprayer is calibrated at 6gals/2750 sq ft at 35# pressure.

Question 1 --- I got a D in ninth grade algebra, but I calculate .015 oz/2750 sq ft., but I don't trust my math! :-)

Question 2 -- How do I measure a hundreth of an ounce? Eye dropper?

Question 3 --- Sandea cost $382 for 10 ounces at our supplier. What's the shelf life? Supplier doesn't know.

I need help with this - especially question 3. I can have the extension agent do the math, but this needs to last several years at that price.

Jack

Why don't you lay plastic mulch and plant the tomatoes through it with drip tape underneath? then you can water and keep the weeds down too.That's what all the Amish do around here and they grow some killer tomatoes.

Good question - long story. I have a gravity irrigation system, fed into water tanks by a 4" pump in a lake. From the tanks it's all gravity fed. There's no pressure regulation - unrestricted flow of about 3500 gals/hr. The main supply lines, about 1000 ft of it, are 2" cheap "waste and drain" grade pipe - much of it unglued and buried 2 ft. deep. Since drip tape requires 8-10lbs of pressure and CLEAN water, it would all have to be dug-up and replaced with sch 40 pipe and an elaborate filtration system installed along with a big pressure tank, regulator etc. down at the pond.

I've tried everything to adapt the water system to plasticulture. For many reasons, it won't work. Believe me, I've tried every suggestion and idea in the book. I'm 73 and have built that system over many years. I have to live with it or quit growing tomatoes. :-) If I had it to over...well, that's irrelevant.

Thanks a lot for your suggestion and interest, though.

Jack

You will need to apply around one gram of herbicide. I usually spray at least one acre at a time which makes measuring less like rocket science. I have some that is 5 years old and still works well... Bob.

Five years sounds long enough to me. I have no idea what a "gram" is though. :-) But I know people who know. :-)

Thanks for you help with this, Bob.

Josh and Bob:

We are going with Devrinol on the tomatoes and DM on the corn. The only post-emergent we have now is Arrow (like Poast) for the tomatoes, since most of our worst weeds were grasses last year. Sandea is probably worth the investment - I'm going to order it - just building up the courage :-)

We'll follow the spring corn with a summer/fall crop of southern peas, which is consistent with the DM label.
Our earliest tomatoes(3/15) will be all done by 6/15. We will follow with a 7/15 planting of fall tomatoes. Do I need to apply Devrinol again at that time?

We fertilize with 20-10-20 soluble and Calcium Nitrate (15-0-0-0), both applied in the irrigation water.

We have both TSWV and RKN problems and use cultivars resistant to both. We planted Amelia last year, but are switching to Nico (also from Harris Moran) because it's a more compact plant. Amelia needs high support - 5' cages or t-post for weaving.

Your input has been invaluable . Thanks!

Jack

Sorry to keep bothering y'all, but one more question on Sandea. It's flowable powder - so I measure by weight, not volume. Do I need to acquire a scale that can accurately weigh a single gram or two, or can that be converted to a volume measure - like 1/8 teaspoon? I think I've got it all down pat, but still don't know how to measure those tiny amounts - 1 gram/3000 sq ft. etc. My total tomato area is about 1/2 acre (10 plots) - but each plot is at a differnt stage of development - have to do 1 plot at a time.

Also, re surfactant with Sandea -- I have crop oil and "spreader/sticker" on hand. Are either of those non-ionic? What the heck is "nonionic" anyway? :-)

Before I buy it I want to be sure I can use it properly.

Jack

Selective herbicides on tomatoes are like some easy napam spray fix. R 2 squared the new way. Didn't know they needed to be sprayed by some weed killer agent.
Home grown is best, greenhouse grown is second, and the last resort are weed infested it's OK to spray tomatoes.

I've searched all over the web trying to find a place where conventional gardeners could discuss chemical matters without being harrassed by organic militants. Can't you please let us have this thread? I would really appreciate it. Thanking you in advance,

Jack

Bob - I just ordered a lab scale that accurately weighs down to 0.10 gram. Got all three sprayers calibrated and Sandea is on order (when the church sees the price they'll probably excommunicate me. LOL)

Do you keep a separate sprayer used just for herbicides? Some of the ag experts recommend that.

Jack

Jack

>I've searched all over the web trying to find a place where conventional gardeners could discuss chemical matters without being harrassed by organic militantsGee, I wonder why that would be...

I saw recently on TV that the state university here actually has a program called Bio Ag, with full professors and graduate students working on alternatives to chemical-based production. Test plots have been producing higher yields than those managed with heavy reliance on petrochemicals.

Back when I was taking classes there, in the 1970s their answer to erosion of the wheat fields in the vicinity was replacement of mechanical tilling with herbicides. Some farmers had adopted this, others had not. At times there was so much soil dust or chemical spray in the air effects were seen well inside town.

Having a separate sprayer for herbicides is a good idea but not necessary if you clean it out properly. Farmers who use 2-4D need a separate sprayer for that herbicide because 2-4D sticks to the walls and in the plumbing and is very hard to completely remove and its something to be mindful of if you ever buy a used sprayer at auction. Bob.

Thanks, Bob. I'll bear that in mind.

***********************

Bboy, thank you for your nice post. Yes, no-till farming relies heavily on herbicides. For awhile, that was all the rage but don't hear that much about it anymore.

I was an organic home gardener for many years and I've heard all the arguments on both sides. I am now part of a group project with several other growers who have chosen to adopt policies that rely on conventional methods approved by the TX A&M University Extension Service. I have come to trust our academic people and no longer (I once did) garden by rules based more on ideology than practical reality.

I have an open mind on the subject, and choose organic pesticides (bt, Spinosad, copper hydroxide) whenever feasible - as do our other growers. We plant genetically modified cultivars when available, such as Attribute corn, to minimize insecticides. We always choose the least toxic product that will do the job, wait double the labelled days to harvest and thoroughly wash all produce under sanitary conditions.

I've accepted chemical weed control and fertilizers, though, as an unavoidable reality and avoid products that are known to have direct health risks - such as Vydate nematacide for example. Most importantly, we "religiously" (it is a church project LOL) follow label instructions to the letter and use nothing that's not approved first by our extension agent and tech adviser.

It seems to me that most certified organic producers cater to an upscale market clientele that is willing to pay extra for organically produced vegetables. It's just a business decision and our customers are not oriented that way at all. It's mostly an upscale suburban market and we are in a very rural area with a lot of poverty. They won't pay us anymore than WalMart prices - except for tomatoes, that is. Our tomatoes taste like tomatoes! :-)

Jack

Preach it brother Jack. I to am a born again christian, and Im sick and tired of extremist, in the scriptures Jesus tells us straight and narrow is the way. I live my life that way with everything. To me it means a balance, not to far one way or the other. Im part of a new group of farmers here in the Midwest, its called sustainable farming, meaning as Jack pointed out if there is a better way to do it naturaly without chemicals, good, if not we'll use the least toxic, and least amount of chemical we can, follwing the lable precisely, and my hats off to Jack, that he is not afraid to search and make sure hes doing it right.
By the way Jack its best to use different sprayers, but as said except for 24d if you thoughrly clean (Dawn Dishsoap) you should be fine.
Not trying to be preachy, it just seems to me if everyone would stop defendin there personal feelings to such an extreme and be willing to look and listen and study we could find the best position which as a rule is usaly somewere in the middle. The Creator gave us the minds and elements to creat tools, so lets just learn to use them properly. Not too much either way, in the middle
God Bless
Josh

God Bless you and your family, Brother Josh! I would love to talk to you about some of these matters, but we can't do it here. Do they have a private message feature on this software? Is there a private way we can exchange email addresses? Or maybe Garden Web has a forum to engage in controversial discussions?

In a post above, I asked the organic folks to let us talk chemicals here and it wouldn't be fair for me to use the thread like that when I asked them not to. So I'm biting my tongue! LOL

Your Brother in Christ, Jack

Jack

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