Isn't this just more Landscaping is Worth Having But Not Worth Paying For (or We Don't Have to Pay Landscapers, We Can Push Them Around)? Having 2 parties pull this on you would definitely make me suspect there was a group conspiracy at work in your market. I can almost hear the lessons in deadbeatism being given over espresso.

I'm gonna start hanging out at the local Starbucks Ron to see if I can get in on any of those 'upper end affluent deadbeatism' seminars on 'creative ways in how to give your landscape company/ designer the shaft'.

Guess I'll have to borrow my neighbors BMW though.... driving up to Starbucks in my Toyota truck might give me away.
Better shuck the felcos too.

; ~ )

Scenario 1: Returning the signed contract without the retainer is indicative of mixed emotions re the whole deal--they are really not 100% sure that they want to shell out this kind of money OR not sure that they want to shell it out specifically to you and your company (trust issue). They're half way there, but not yet fully committed.

Scenario 2: Another type of client might do this as a power play; his way of taking charge. Now you have to run after him to get the retainer. I have several clients who have done something similar--they only pay a part of the requested down payment at the start of the work -- then I have to call, leave messages, play phone tag--they got me. They pay, but they make you work overtime for it.

Scenario 3: They have cash flow problems, are juggling check books and accounts, running their credit cards to the hilt,etc. Have trouble living within their means; want it all even if they can't afford it. Stalling in giving you the retainer as they need the $$$ for the back BMW payments.

Scenario 4: They really don't believe in retainers; they will pay you after they see the work start. You do it their way. A variation on #2.

People often have trouble parting with money for all sorts of reasons, especially expendable income. It is a wonder that we don't come up against it more than we do. I run less than 1% of clients who are deadbeats or difficult to collect payments from. All the rest are pretty good--early, right on time, or just a bit late. I think the rule of thumb is that you can expect about 10% of your customers/clients to have trouble paying their bills for various and sundry reasons. I am happy with my bunch on the whole.

They want to believe that you want to work for them more than they want to give you a deposit. I think that you straighten them out with your tact. They know that you know that they knew what they were doing. Game over.

Now the reality sets in. You are more important to them than they are to you and they know it. They also know that you know that.

Some people just don't read...they sign and send. Some also can't understand why you, as a successful business woman, might need their money on time. Successful business men and women view business as business--just flat out ask them--they won't be offended. It's not a psychological game, it's business.

I had worked in accounting most of my business life. The rule of thumb of every business, is work on the other guy's money. The bigger the company the longer they hold back payment.
Look at Walmart, they do not start to pay for any of their merchandise until it goes through the cash register, God knows how long it takes after that to go through their Accounts Payable system. Probably at the very least 60 days, so if something sits on their shelves for 3 months & they take 2 months to pay, the supplier could be waiting at least 5 months for payment.

I know that this is probably a silly question.
But does your contract specificaly state that the work will not begin until you have received the signed contract and a deposit of $cash...?

The schedule works off of the deposit & signed contract. Until they are received, the job is not on the schedule and any other contracts that arrive with deposits in the mean time are scheduled first. If it is a game, it has rules that are very practical and should be known without explaination.

I think Ginger hit on some good ideas ... my follow up response to Ginger's insightful ideas ..

1. Very dangerous never proceed with the job. There is still a lot of selling to do so reapproach the client in a place where you can resell the project .. find out whats cooking .. there is often a good chance to make money with this client BUT never rush the sale .. since some .. contractors and / or clients will go ahead with the sale even though the deal is already about to explode !

2. If you want or need the job play muscle games ... but flex yours on the first payment and signing the contract ... hold your ground anytime time his / her muscle play puts you in a dangerous position money wise but let them play games with petty money ... give and take so they can be the big shot but always consider worst case situations if the client does not pay so you can differentiate the muscle player from the con artist.

3. Scarry ... could mean bad credit ... but sometimes even those with a lot of money need to move money around ... don't be frightened off to quick proceed with tact and caution ... stick to your terms ...Consider credit checking for all your clients ??

4. Your choice let clients run you around silly or state your terms ... I've always followed the later but then again I retired in part from the private sector because of such aggravation.

There will always be some money you can't collect but never put yourself in a position you can't recover from no matter how great the deal looks.

The kicker is you never really know ??

Good Day ...

LinLee
This is the exact wording on my contract : ( to follow )

One cannot miss the retainer paragraph. It is triple spaced down from the preceeding paragraph that lays out our work time line schedule for their project.
Directly adjacent to the retainer paragraph is the signature and date line.

If this contract is agreeable to you please sign once copy and return it to our office with a reimbursable retainer fee of $ 1000.00 as authorization to start the job. Please retain one copy for your records.
The reimbursable retainer is applied to your final invoice.

Owner _______________________________________________________ Date

Respectfully, M....

Ginger , forget the landscaping job, you should go into career counseling for the landscape / green industry !

Your pshyco-analysis was clear, concise, articulate and soooo very easy to understand.

If I had the balls I would copy your explanation with little check off boxes next to it and when I send my letter off to the client reminding them of the non payment of the retainer I would ask them to tick off the senario box that applies specifically to them.

( something tells me that I wouldn't get their retainer sent back nor the job though ! )

great feedback, thanks.

Is this for a design? An design with instillation? What exactly are you doing?

Depending on how the job is done. I eiher ask for a design fee which is later credited to the account if they are having my company install the landscape and a deposit of 1/3 of the materials in the estimate.

Also I learned a long time ago over estimate the cost of the project. This helps you in three ways.

1 - If they want to haggle then you can come down in price.

2 - Covers you if there are unseen expendatures.

3 - Finally if you don't get blinded by dollar signs in your eyes you can send them a final bill that is under the estimated cost of the project. Its amazing that no matter how much money people have if you come in under estate it will endear you forever to the client.

Rofl. I can relate, however, most to Ginger's post about working on the other guy's money. When I grow things like points from cuttings it can literally take six months for the return, longer if it is deliquent.

I have very small clients and very large clients. The largest are somtimes indeed the latest to pay......and they pretend they never see the interest added to their bills, and I tack it on like clockwork. They pay the initial principle and then dare you to have the audacity to ask for the interest. It also seems to be a truism that the smaller your own business, like mine, the lower on the totem pole you would be when the checks go out.

What one party considers deadbeating, the other considers "good fiscal tactics". You gotta remember that society on the whole is playing to different rules than it did even fifty years ago. Aggressive business techniques are touted in "how to succeed" manuals and taught as theory on academic levels. That is why on day one I made the decision to go after delinquent accounts aggressively, even if it cost me more to collect than the original debt.

I don't think they overlooked the deposit and signature. It's just like when I worked at a garden center and the ones most dripping with loot would be the ones who expected enormous discounts for their good looks, or asked to buy the hardgoods with cracks and expect it drastically reduced, or bought a quart of chemicals and used what they want and returned it a half inch shorter. This one takes the cake.......a professional woman who refused to pay two dollars for a small bag of our own mixed planting soil. She actually and for real asked one of the help to go back into a greenhouse and see if she would scrape some "leftover" soil off one of the benches for free. The staff was in the breakroom laughing so hard we were peeing ourselves and after she was accomodated, took the little bag and shoved it in the back of her new caddy.

It ceased to be funny, however, when the next customer would be a widow on a pension who would fork over the money, sometimes in small change, and never challange it once. It just literally takes all kinds.

Happyhoe,
To answer a few of your questions :
Is this for a design ? - yes

An design with instillation? yes and no - We are a design + build firm but the design company is separate from the build company.
Two separate contracts. One for design, one for Installation and Construction.

.....install the landscape and a deposit of 1/3 of the materials in the estimate.
That would be considered illegal here in California.
You can only ask for 10 % of the constructed job prior to commencing the project.
Once the job has started you can then set up any type of payment plan for the project

After my response was laughed off, I saw nothing in subsequent posts to indicate it was erroneous. Most were merely describing ways to cope with the mindset I mentioned. This forum (and Landscape Design) definitely come off as cliques.

"After my response was laughed off ..."

How did you come to that idea Ron ??

Good Day ...

Ron,

If you had a few more people skills (see this forum and numerous others going way, waaaay back), maybe you might be included in those cliques.

Cathy

oooohh oooh I wanna be in the clique!!!

seriously ron, why should you care what anyone else thinks.
Unless you're signing my paycheck or sleepin with me, I don't really care whatcha think :-)
course I've always got an ear open...

Isn't this just more Landscaping is Worth Having But Not Worth Paying For (or We Don't Have to Pay Landscapers, We Can Push Them Around)? Having 2 parties pull this on you would definitely make me suspect there was a group conspiracy at work in your market. I can almost hear the lessons in deadbeatism being given over espresso. from Ron

I'm gonna start hanging out at the local Starbucks Ron to see if I can get in on any of those 'upper end affluent deadbeatism' seminars on 'creative ways in how to give your landscape company/ designer the shaft'.
Guess I'll have to borrow my neighbors BMW though.... driving up to Starbucks in my Toyota truck might give me away.
Better shuck the felcos too. from Mich

Sorry Ron not seeing it, either.... Mich was the only one to respond to your comment...and if you notice you approached what you said with a touch of "jocularity".

As one who some weeks ago approached a follow-up on my post with my feelings on my sleeve...you need to be careful not to assess posts as personal attacks or even laugh ing you off...maybe try consensual agreement with you ina similar vain of humor.

My amsued 2 cents worth.
Neil

Ron is a knowledgeable contributor to these forums with a strong point of view. His voice comes from experience, perhaps embittered experience but not without merit and we should look upon that as a challenge as I am sure it is meant. I would like to keep political correctness at a distance.
No,we do not need a psychologist; susan said it, we are in business, it may be a business that we enjoy but a dollar is a dollar.
I do this: you do this. No psychology involved.

If they are playing games with money before the job just think how it will be when the work begins. Proceed with Caution. There is a risk involved with dealing with these people. Be aware of it.

Hey Mich...thanks for posting this. It's kind of timely for me too and gives me the feeling of...it's not just me!!!! Must be something in the air with people playing all sorts of games either with money or mind. I'm going to have to tweak some of my services this coming year to combat the kooks that hire me. Hmmmph.

According to Jessie O'Neill, this behavior is a symptom of affluenza, a syndrome afflicting many in America. Send them a get well card.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Affluenza Project

LOL! Jeni, that is priceless. I thought it was a joke at first. I wonder whether she is helping clients to recover from affluenza by unburdening them of some of their wealth, through her consultation and seminar fees? heh heh

pffft... the GoldenGhetto!!!!
hahahahaha

I have striven to avoid this problem, by only working when I absolutely need to. works really well.

rofl.......OMG I bookmarked that one Jeni. I'm sorry, but I think the lady has something there. I see it all the time, and actually our industry is a recipient of the attention of a lot of victims of this and also the related affliction.............pseudoaffluenza. One cannot tell one from the other until after thirty days and one dun with interest added. LOL.

I remember reading about a "walletectomy" years ago... a medical necessity caused by affluenza. Guys were going to their doctors with complaints of pain in their lower groin area - only to find out that the cause was pressure from their overstuffed wallets shoved in the hip pocket.

Okay, I'm not a psychologist, but am a lawyer. I'd suggest that under the signature line on the contract, add this:
[boldface] Method of Payment: check[ ]
credit card [ ]
If credit card, card number:
Expiration date:
Name on card:
Signature:

Before sending this, remember to enclose your check or complete the credit card information above!

Sincerely,
....

In my experience, people are just dumb. Even though it is IN THE PARAGRAPH THEY SIGNED, they often sign away their firstborn without reading the paragraph. I've seen it happen over and over. Sad. I don't think it's always intentional; people are just distracted or busy or spacy or simply lack intelligence. Maybe they sign and forget to put the check in the envelope; maybe they sign without reading; maybe they are devious, but I really don't think that is the majority of times.

I made the business people in the company I worked for, send me ALL contracts before they signed them, because they almost NEVER read them carefully - if they read them at all!

Good luck,

Julia

Great suggestion, Julia.

Thanks Julia. I don't think it a bad idea to have ALL business documents checked out by a lawyer. Those who don't want to pay will find a way without you pointing it out. Once upon a time in an attempt to demonstrate my dedication to customer satisfaction I had this little ditty on my contract "Amount payable on satisfactory completion $x" silly me. That word 'satisfactory' was a mistake.

When we worked for the everyone was a building contractor during the building boom of the mid eighties round here,I had a good friend that I was with ,that was an over zealous, leather clad ,covered with skin pitchas all over,motorcycle enthusiast, collect come pay day with no problem or even a contract. Never any problems or miscommunications on anyones part!!!!! oh for the good ole days!!!! Notho

I agree with miss rumpus that most people simply don't read. Maybe instead of having your payment clause at the end, where they sign, you should have it be the first thing they see when they look at the contract.

Better yet, maybe have it typed on a separate small piece of paper that is attached to the contract, so they read it before they see the contract. Then have it again at the end.

If you still get poor payment results, I would then say other forces are at work. Many business are used to getting a service and having a certain amount of time to pay for it, 60 or 90 days. It may take some education to show these business people that you do not work that way.

susan

yeah, I need my father in law to start doing collections for me...

he may have some issues,
but any man does arc welding barefoot has his merits.

It might be that you just gave free landscape advice.
A contract is important to itemize the limits of the work.
Otherwise, in the customers mind, your duties to them will be open ended.
If they ever want to barter for used automobile snow tires or used fencing, drop the contract and run!

Particularly since snow tires are of limited value below 3,000' elevation anyway...