so you are asking... whether it is genetic .. or cultural ...

if its genetic.. then there is nothing you can do to speed it along ...

but if its cultural ... meaning sun/water/soil/etc ... then in theory... if given a long enough growing season... they should flower ..

i usually sum it up ... that a plant does not flower.. until it hits sexual maturity.. and it will not hit such.. until it has grown a root mass sufficient to generate the energy needed to produce all those foo foo flowers.. and the seed itself ...

so my vote is genetics ... [short of really forcing the issue in a closed circumstance]

ken

Thanks Ken for your much appreciated quick response. My question is something I've often wondered about but never really experimented with. So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that the reason some perennials won't flower their first year is because, genetically, they are slower to reach sexual maturity than annual plants. So, since it's a genetic thing, trying to speed things up by taking cuttings from such perennials would probably not help, right?

Art

you understand what i said ... as to the requisite maturity ...

but i did not answer your question about taking mature cuttings and when they will flower..

but i did suggest that w/o the needed root system .. they just wont be able to generate the needed energy ...

i also look forward to an answer in that regard ...

and do keep in mind.. those wizards with professional greenhouses and perfected systems .. do all kinds of things to push the envelope .. which you and i, in the backyard, usually cant accomplish ...

ken

ps: if all that was so clear.. and since i am bored out of mind mind with single digits outside...

the rest of my logic is .. that an annual.. once it hits that maturity .. and produces the flower and seed.. will die [all in one year].. by definition ... it really has only one goal in life.. procreation [leaving out us nuts who deadhead them forever] ....

and as to a perennial.. once it seeds.. they usually go dormant ... or to die back and do other things underground.. like crown division to root growing.. setting itself up for next years procreation ....

the whole point of flower/seed.. is to fulfill a mission .... and w/o it .. we really would not have flowers ...

it took me a very long time to think about plants in regard to sexual maturation ... and seed production ... it was like a light went on ...

and i bet.. total speculation.. somewhere in all this.. there are different kinds of hormones and how they trigger either function .. [roots vs flower]

there is probably a whole pre-teen/teenager analogy in here somewhere .. lol ...

enough philosophizing for tonight... take care

Ken, I really appreciate the time you've taken to respond to my post and share your knowledge and opinions. You've been on GardenWeb a long time and I regard your opinions highly.

I'm sure you're right about the needed root system. That makes a lot of sense, especially since the plant will have to survive the coming winter season (as opposed to annuals). I guess that's one reason I wondered about the cuttings, since their roots would probably have a good head start.

To add to the mystery, there are lots of perennials that will flower their first year, if started from seed early enough. Some will and some won't; maybe some are just faster at developing their root system than others? Then, of course, there are perennials like the Daylily that takes two or three years to bloom when grown from seed! Ya know, sometimes I think Mother Nature gets a kick out of filling us with curiosity and wonder :-)

Anyway, thanks again Ken. Maybe someone else will jump in and offer some more insight regarding the question of taking mature cuttings and when they might flower.

Art

P.S. Although your boredom was to my advantage, I really do hope your weather warms up soon :-)

My growing season is different from yours so my experience may not be relevant. In January I can take cuttings from many evergreen plants and have blooms by July. Seed started at the same time will not usually bloom the same year. Of course here a perennial acts like a perennial, most will do well for at least the first three years. Al

Thanks Al for that input and it is indeed relevant to my question; I knew the growing season would have to be taken into account. Your experience with the evergreen plants would seem to indicate that time is the main factor. That's probably true, but is it the only factor?

Just as seeds have built-in germination inhibitors, is it possible that perennial plants could have flowering inhibitors? Those inhibitors would make sure the plant channels it's energy into their root system, to make sure the plant survives it's first winter.

If there were such flowering inhibitors, they would have been removed in plants that are more than one year old. So, if cuttings were taken from such plants, maybe the cuttings would be free of such inhibitors, allowing them to flower their first year.

So, at least in my mind, the question still remains. Is the fact that some perennials don't flower their first year due solely to time, or is some other phenomenon involved?

BTW, we could use some of your California sunshine here in Missouri; it's cold outside!

Art

My hunch is that perennials from cuttings taken from mature plants could well flower in their first year. However, Ken's point about root growth is relevant. They might well flower but would you want them to? Would it perhaps be better to remove the flowers the first year in order to allow the plant to concentrate on growing a good root system? Much as you remove the flowers from cuttings like pelargoniums and fuchsias and from first year strawberry plants.

Hi flora, and thanks for your very much appreciated response! It's odd that you brought up the point about removing the flowers; I actually had wondered about that same thing :-) I know I'd have a hard time doing that, but in the long run we might end up with a healthier plant.

Flora, let's assume for a moment that your hunch is correct in that cuttings taken from mature plants might flower their first year (even though the mother plants usually would not). Do you think that would be solely because the cuttings had more time to develop a suitable root system or do you think there's more involved than that?

For example, maybe the mother plant (grown from seed) contained some sort of inhibitor that was removed it's first winter and thus not passed on to the cuttings?

BTW - I feel very fortunate to have gotten responses from all of you GardenWeb old timers. I mean Ken started here in January of 03, Al in June of 01 and you in Dec of 01. Gee, I'm just a youngster around here ... at age of 79 :-)

Art