SURE! We haven't talked about companion planting yet--or the (potential) desirability of moles (the eat the grubs that turn into Japanese beetles, for one), OR hand removal for pest control...

melanie

Organic - compounds that contain carbon ( "Organic Chemistry", Morrison And Boyd ) some of these are also major carcinogens like benzene .. carbon tetrachloride ... What then do we really mean by "Organic" somewhat of a new age pseudoscience health and environmental friendly marketing term .....

Good Day ...

Carbonomics, or the study of carbon cycles (atmosphere to ligneous plants to mulch to gas, etc.), vacuum removal of pests, mycorrhizal supplementation, reducing albedo, soft path water drainage; all the cool new ideas out there and we aren't using them because they don't fit our current gardens or how we think about gardens and gardening in general. Wouldn't be suprised to find a good deal of this stuff on the native plant forum; think I'll take a look later. May I recommend checking with your state DEP/DEC, folks? My state has a little bit, but some states like Missouri have lots of good stuff. The EPA site has good info on bio-invasives, which I think is the biggest problem the environment faces here that we can affect immediately at a grassroots level.

Great idea, Ginger. Best idea I've seen for a thread in a while; may even be a forum here...

Hey here's a great thread on a related (kissin' cuzins) site...

Here is a link that might be useful: Sustaining Our Environment

i'm not sure what there is to discuss except in the area of the ethics of resoration.. of course if one is speaking of historic restoration most methods would not include any anti-ecological principles of any particular note ... But then should a resotration deal with modern problems, i mean problems that the older landscape wouldn't have had, such damage caused by pollution.
Do you know of any restoration problems impacted by ecologic principles?
- A

Asha, I don't care if Olmstead planted the eleagnus or barberries with his own hands; I wouldn't put them back in a design if I was restoring the Garden of Eden to specs (where are those plans anyway...?). IMHO we do need to start taking modern scientific advances into account; I think there are usually ways to find the mean and keep all parties happy, but in the case of invasives, if you were restoring US GOVT property now, invasives are no longer allowed and preference must be shown to native species (although in a historic restoration that would not be as much of an issue). But I do think the topic should be explored, at least minimally...

Asha-
There was a recent post on the LD forum wherein someone wished to cement over the lawn in his backyard. He wrote that he would then have 2/3 cement and 1/3 flowerbeds on his property. The title of the post was something like "A Whole Lot of Cement". He was wondering about the efficacy of his plan. Many posters mentioned the negatives of such a garden/landscape renovation. He was advised against it by several. Scott was one of the people who replied.

Both the theory and practice of thoughtful landcare were considered in Scott's answer, including runoff, drainage, flooding and concomitant water shortages, heat sinks, reflexive heating, global warming, personal responsibility, permeable pavers, use of shade trees, and more.

He covered many pertinent current issues in land care and usage that could certainly be discussed here. All homeowners are faced with these issues when they consider redesigning or restoring their landscape gardens. Sometimes they do not recognize this as they have not been made aware of the issues and thereby the choices.

Here is Scott's reply. I think it was so good that it bears copying and pasting to this forum for posters and lurkers to read:

"Lots of impervious surface also makes drainage a huge issue and is bad for the environment (does not allow for recharging local water supply, and then we wonder why flooding and water shortages are increasingly common). And a few potted plants will not make much difference at all; cement is an ineffiecient heat sink, so it both heats and cools fairly rapidly, as it transfers heat readily. The parts exposed to sun will heat the parts under the pots quickly whether they are exposed or not. Lawn is not a lot better than concrete for reflexive heating (known scientifically as albedo). The only way to make all that paving work from a drainage and heat sink point of view would be to put a large tree smack in the middle so it shades most of the paving (Chinese gardens use this method a lot). Trees soak up 35% of an average (1") rainfall before it hits the ground and utilize much of the water that does get there. They soak up the energy of the sun, actually converting it to sugar, therefore taking it out of the heat budget. If you are set on paving, try permeable pavers, they are found on the market more and more. But better yet, simply keep paving and lawn to a minimum, and expand those beds, or best of all, plant the tree. To paraphrase a wise old man from Connecticut "Everybody talks about global warming, but nobody ever does anything about it." Charity begins at home; if we all look at how our landscapes affect the local environment, we can improve our environment in a way everyone here can appreciate; with trees, shrubs and flowers..."

This forum is not only for historic or period restorations but for general garden renovation, renewal, rejuvenation, or redesign.

Period restorations face the same issues. A rather simple example would be choice of plants. Some garden pests (introduced exotics like the Japanese Beetle, for instance) are around now that were not during say, the Colonial period. They did not have the pesticides we now have available, either. Should we use these pesticides now in order to keep susceptible, but historically correct, plants in our Colonial-style garden? Or should we use integrated pest management? Or organic methods only? Or choose not plant these hx correct but pest-prone plants in our Colonial restoration garden at all? Should we plant a high-maintenance, but hx correct, plant like boxwood that needs a lot of pruning, gets leaf miners and various diseases? Or should we substitute a more environmentally-friendly shrub?

I think we have lots to talk about on this forum concerning ecological principles.

Ginger

Shucks, Ginger, (blushing) I didn't think anyone was listening...

I dragged this topic in front of a jury of my peers (the CNLA) a couple of years back and pleaded with the nursery industry to realize the marketing potential for trees and shrubs as THE answer to global warming. I begged, cajoled, trotted out the numbers, even showed them a state that was partnering with garden centers to spread the good word on native plants (y'all down in the Show-Me State need to live up to that name and show some other state governments how to help business and the environment at the same time). They didn't get it; still don't.

Business (and people in general) will not change until they have to. They will drive SUV's until their grandchildren choke on the fumes and the wells run dry. They will spray acres of lawn until butterflies are memories and the birds start to drop. And they will adamantly fight for the right to plant whatever they want in their gardens, with no thought to current, never mind future, damage to the environment. I've reconciled myself to that. I still lecture once and a while; Lord knows I hop up on the soap box here quick enough ;). But the average Joe is not going to get this or care; hell, I couldn't convince people to care enough about it to make a profit on it. How to convince people that it's just the right thing to do?

I spout off here because I don't think of you folks as average. We cut a pretty wide swath as a demographic, sure we do. But you are my people, the Tribe of Garden, and if you guys don't get this, no one will. Asha, I appreciate when people talk about their homes and the architectural period; I like talking shinden to shoin to machiya as much as the next guy. But restoration also means putting a stream back to good, or bringing back brown fields as wildlife habitat. Sure there are other forums that touch on that, but can't we make a little room here for the restoration that will be appreciated by more species than ours? Aldo Leopold asked the most important design question I ever heard. He said "How can we design in a way the loves the children of all species for all time?" Sure it's a big order, but we can do it.

We're gardeners...

Thanks again Ginger (and Spike). You have created a place to talk about not just gardens but dreams...

Scott

There is a lot to think about in this thread.

I'm just going to throw out thoughts as they come. History aside, I struggle everyday to decide between native and non-native plants. I started gardening with almost all natives and have moved somewhat in the direction of non-natives. I know natives, at least in theory, use less water and are better adapted to the area. They are also usually non-invasive and don't displace other natives that are necessary parts of the local ecosystem.

From an aesthetic point of view, however, sometimes the natives are lacking. For example, the Texas mock orange I have looks awful. It doesn't bloom and has few leaves. It's going on it 3rd year. The cenizo has bare spots and looks droopy. We planted our Texas persimmon four years ago, and it's still only 2 feet tall. The bee brush hasn't grown any in two years (10 inches tall), and it was supposed to take over and get 10 ft. tall.--I have no plans to pull any of them out, but these natives haven't performed nearly as well as expected, and this is their territory. On the other hand, maybe they just didn't perform to my standard of what a landscaping plant should look like. So, do I resist non-natives because I know they aren't as ecologically friendly and at the same time compromise what would be pleasing to me? (Personally, I try to pick the best, most innocent, tried & true-and perhaps a bit boring of the non-natives: irises, old roses, abelia, quince.) I also research most of my plants before I purchase them.--There are tons of plants that won't grow here.

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't know what heat sink is. Please enlighten me.

Any suggestions as to what else I can do in my yard that would be more ecologically friendly?

What I practice that I consider friendly land management is:

*use organic methods of gardening,
*make my own compost,
*leave the leaves and cut grass where they fall,
*haven't installed a lawn (we have the grasses and weeds that came with the original land, plus some of our neighbor's bermuda which we don't water),
*left alone the majority of native plants that came with the land,
*have planted many native species--yaupon, possum haw, kidneywood, Texas persimmon, rusty blackhaw viburnum, Texas wildflowers, etc.
*have somewhat of a "live & let live" understanding with the outdoor bugs with the exception of carpenter ants in our house and fire ants.
*wildlife is welcome in the garden and my plants can attest to that.--Many have been eaten down to the main stalk, and I still don't use pesticides.

Scott, the point you make about restoring land to it's original condition is a valuable one.
I just was working with this on a project where we were introducing a design element in an otherwise open piece of land which had been changed over the years to try to manage the water that inundates part of it. In the long past it had been a farm, and in the even longer past it had been a semi vernal marsh (I suspect). We turned it back into a marsh, a bog and stream a vernal pond and a swimming hole with natural filter and aeration.
Where I get confused is between restoration and renovation. To me, these have significantly different issues at their core. A renovation implies using some of the existing stuff to make something new ... so there i suppose that some ethical issues come into play and depend upon your opinion of what is critical. For restoration there is a whole different set of ethics involved, organic primciples only come into play depending upon what you are restoring ... it is very rare that people are wanting to restore an environmentally unfriendly landscape --- not because people are ethical about the environment but because environmentally unfriendly landscapes just don't generally inspire restoration.
The few examples that i can think of are rare... e.g. to restore the use some massive waterfall which drains a stream. off into the sewer system though i've never heard of an old waterfall tht connected to a sewer system, not ven in Central Park NYC. A betrer example might be a home owner wanting to restore a house that is located right on a protected stream ... and wanting the original lawn restored EXCEPT that they would now like a lawn that is perfect and green all year round, like it never was before ... so sometimes there are ancillary issues regarding restoration, I agree.
As for renovation, this is an entirely different field ... it means that you want to do something new to an old landscape which has become outmoded in some way. And of course there are lots of terrible ecological choices one might make in making a new landscape ... but the problem of ecology here is one almost purely of your politics ... which of course tends to make for some fairly heated posts and entrenched positions. I can imagine.
so perhaps as this site is about both resoration and renovation it is good to keep in mind how thee are different disciplines and would have somewhat different guidlines.
-A

Redthistle, you raise the salient point that has held back the natives for so long. They have developed by exploiting wildlife relationships (insects for pollination, birds and animals for seed dispersal). The garden plants have not been subjected to natural selection at all; they have been selected (cultivated) by Man, who when it comes to garden plants, could care less about how the plant interacts with the ecosystem. Is it pretty? Is it smelly? We have a winner!

That's the paradigm shift I was talking about. We foster ecological interactions all the time without thinking about it; a fact that struck me as I watched a sharp-shinned hawk chase ENGLISH sparrows around my bird feeder. If we start to extend our thinking to the garden, including other species in the equation of "this plant vs. that" then the natives look a lot prettier.

The best book I've seen to chronicle the change from garden to habitat is Sara Stein's "Noah's Garden" (the follow-up "Planting Noah's Garden" is a great how-to for those already so inclined). She talks about moving to the burbs, starting the garden she'd always wanted, then watching the wildlife she had grown fond of leave it bit by bit. The book shows why she changed her thinking, and how, and if your on the fence on this issue, Sara may be just the person you need to hear (This ones for you. Redthistle.)

Asha, you are correct in saying restoration would rarely create ecological impasse, but if taken to a finer ecological point, many restorations are not eco-friendly. All that lawn at the Biltmore Estate is not ecologcally friendly no matter how organically they treat it (With Lowes on board I'm sure it has more to do with who's peddling fertilizer at the big box than any enviromental concern) Historically accurate? To the letter, I'll warrant, but still not the height of ecological stewardship.

Which raises the point, where's the cut-off? I am not saying the Biltmore should let the lawns go to meadow (not that I'd complain if they did, but others sure would). But they should be using BMP to maintain those lawns (organic, non-soluable fertilizer, heightened mower blades, contour mowing, etc.). Instead we pretend our actions have no reaction; damn the torpedoes; I want pretty and historical. We can and should find that happy medium; it sounds as if your mostly there. Yes, there are different guidelines, but we can find a common ground there, I'm sure of it.

Redthistle, in laymans terms, a heat sink is any mass that absorbs and then releases energy at a slower rate. It has become semantically associated with the "heat island effect" witnessed in most big cities today; often clouds will part and "go around" a city because of the column of superheated air rising off of all that concrete. It is also a technology being used to heat homes and cool computers, so searcing it on the web was a mistake; I got tons of info and the stuff that actually applied was all scientific papers, mostly mathematical models. Nothing fun at all. E-mail me if you want more info on how the ecological angle works and I can give you a couple of URL's to get you started (no math models)...

I have found a use for an old(ish) bag of Scotts turf-starter fertilizer--I'm using it as "snow melt!" I gotta believe it's better for the yard and the garden than rocksalt. Normally I jsut use a shovel andmy back--but the last little bit of this will not yield to a shovel. The fertilizer is left form the last time my DH decided he wanted "lawn"--instead of yard. didn't make a bit of difference--sitting in the shed ever since--seems to be working as snow-melt!

melanie

PS--my physicist kid asks me to remind y'all that ALL fertilizer is "organic"--from a chemistry point of view. I guess if it's got carbon in it is's organic? I dunno--I was an English major!

Well not quite Ammonium Nitrate does not have carbon so it is a inogarnic compund ...and so are Iron Sulfate, KCl and others ...

But Melanie your kid is on the ball organic compounds are indeed compunds that contain Carbon ... which include many major carcinogens ... despite drum beating adds that sell "organics" as a health term.

Sink and Source are also sometimes overused or inflated in meaning ... they are relative terms ... a source is simply a area of high concentration a sink is a area of lower concentration relative to the source in question...

So the Sun is a heat source the earth a heat sink ....

The hood of your car on a hot summer day is a heat source relative to your backside if you make the mistake of sitting on the hood ....which in Las Vegas a BIG mistake.

Good Day ....

Excellent posts, Scott. I wish there were more to responsible land stewardship that didn't depend so mightily on the wallet, but unfortunately, that is the way industry, big biz and consumers are influenced.

But, if it weren't for the relative handful of responsible folks, there would be no hope at all for conserving and preserving the natural world, or reversing some of the environmental damage we have already done. At least there's hope.

Asha writes: "Where I get confused is between restoration and renovation . . ."

It seems clear to me that no matter what sort of redesign work we are doing - everyday renovation of an everyday garden or the historical restoration of a special old garden - we are faced with the same issues that several posters have outlined and given examples of above. It comes down to this when we are redoing gardens of any type:

How do we incorporate the new or re-discovered gardening techniques and practices founded on new or re-discovered knowledge and new science, in order to honor Nature (or the ecosystem, the environment, whatever you may call it)?

Redthistle sounds as if she is working hard at incorporating many of these new(er) practices into her garden design, garden planning, and garden work. IMHO, there is no way we can return to the 100% native, natural landscape-it wouldn't be a garden then, shaped by our hands. We have traveled way past that; but if we can work at approximating some semblage of nature, some effort at ecological practices, we are going in the right direction. A mix of natives and non-natives is a realistic and aesthetic choice, based on how Redthistle likes her garden to look and how in tune she is with surrounding nature. That's good.

I like Cady's words, too, reminding us that there are people out there "conserving and preserving the natural world, or reversing some of the environmental damage we have already done."

So this thread is a drop in the pool. Who knows how many lurkers are reading and learning. (Speaking of which, it is not a really good idea, Mel, to use Scott's fertilizer as snowmelt in winter - plants are dormant and can't use the fertilizer, of course, and the ground is frozen, so it will just run off into the nearest water source with other snowmelt pollutants. Like dumping a bag of fertilizer into your nearest stream or pond)

There's more than aethetics and function to consider when reworking your garden. Just thought a thread on this issue might get us thinking . . .

Ginger

Thanks Scott & Ginger. I'll order "Noah's Garden" from Interlibrary loan.

Both of Sara Stein's books are excellent. If you ever have the chance to hear her speak, she is good at that as well. Her personality comes through - a very approachable, charming woman. The address below gives a short review of both books, price, etc.

http://all-garden-books.com/search_Sara_Stein/searchBy_Author.html

And to start the day:

"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas.
I'm frightened of the old ones." - John Cage

Ginger

Mohave--thanks for he correction. I think I was MIS-quoting a rant, AND out of context--We were out to dinner and someone was going on and on about "organic food"--and when we got home his comment was--"ALL food is organic." The Boy then continued about misuse of terms. (I have NO idea where he gets the "dictionary gene." ;-) ) This was last spring--right after he'd taken his AP chemistry exam--so he was just a TAD wound up.

I've just quit labeling what I do...encouraging birds and beneficial bugs, hand removing NASTY bugs (japanese beetles are disgusting--but easy to get in the morning) avoiding monoculture and eliminating plants that seem to be disease prone. For instance--rather than spend a great deal of money on getting my black-knot infested prunus mume treated (with what sounded like nasty fungicides) I'm going to trim it as best I can and hope it can eliminate the fungus itself. If it can't, I'll take it down.

I would LIKE to replace it--but having looke at it's location--am wondering if that is PART of the reason it got sick (along with a vicious icestorm last winter, followed by the wettest spring/summer I have ever seen). Visually it's in a lovely spot--but it is awfully close to a wall--and I wonder if the roots aren't compromised...At any rate, if it dies, I'll probably research and either replace it with something less likely to get ill--or put up a man-made shade structure. We shall see.

melanie

"....there is no way we can return to the 100% native, natural landscape-it wouldn't be a garden then shaped by our hands. We have traveled way past that, but if we can work at approximating some semblage of nature, some effort of ecological practices, we are going in the right direction. A mix of natives and non-natives is a realistic and aesthetic choice [my emphasis] based on how Redthistle likes her garden to look and how in tune she is with surrounding nature. That's good.

I quoted Ginger as she sort of puts it in a nut shell for me anyway.
Working in an established public garden everyday, I have the difficult choice of "going native" or staying with the established norm. I certainly can sypathize with Redthistles dilemma. One does want to be enviromentally sound and asthetically pleasing. I have the resposibility (IMHO) working a public garden/park to make responsible choices that set the example rather than follow the established norm. There is are many "damn ferinners" growing in the parks that though non-native they are established "old timey" plants that add a certain charm to my beds.
With that said I am trying to introduce natives of the Appalachians into the parks to let the public see and experience our mountain heritage. More to it than rhodies and hemlock hedges!!lol.

I am not Mr. Organic by a long shot, however I am a fervent practioner and advocate of IPM (Integrated Pesticide Management) and other proper horticultural practices. Proper pruning, Ilike to use composted cow manure for lawn fertilization in spring but I still use a IBDU in fall. Blow the leaves in fall into the flower beds and grind them up with a mulch mower. Mowing with a mulch mower raised height ( and don't I catch hell for that one 'cause we are not giving it the golf course cut)half the amount of recommended fertilization is needed on that turf. Hmmmm! .
Do I use a pre-emerge in the spring? Yes. Do I use Glyphosate & 2,4D? Yes. As a crew of one there is no way I can keep up with the annual weed population other wise. But by staying on schedule and getting to know my weeds growth habits I can keep the chemicals down to a minimum. As a professional gardener I will forever preach the old addage " Less is More" esp. when it comes to chemical warfare in your yard.

You go, phd. And don't let them make you adjust that blade one inch! You ARE setting examples even if the majority don't get it, I bet you get the "Howcums" about it; evryone of those is an opportunity to educate. I've lectured, talked on the radio about it, but the times where I've felt I made real progress it was always one on one. So talk their ears off...

Mohave, I said laymans terms cuz that's all I got. Thanks for shaving the rough spots down. Good day.

Cady, you are so right! Bless the phdNC's and Redthistles and Melanies of the world (yes Mel, I know all you do is leave them alone, but that's more sense than most got).

Mel, less is more. Fertilizer , too. And next time you start to see a fungus problem, try antagonistic bacterial counterculture (that's the cool sounding scientific name for fighting fire with fire; I spray a cup of milk mixed in a gallon of water. I was trying to impress Mohave; he seemed a little underwhelmed with my scientific knowledge) It's amazing what this will clear up. It's sure fire for mildew, and good for some rusts. Doubt it will help with an advanced case of black knot, but it's worth the cup of milk to find out...

Ginger, thanks again for this forum, and thank you for the quote. It reminded me of one from one of my eco-heroes, Amory Lovins (no he is NOT a porn star...)

"My old mentor Edwin Land said that invention is a sudden cessation of stupidity; that a mistake is a circumstance not yet fully turned to your advantage; and that people who seem to have had a new idea have often simply stopped having an old idea."

Lets talk some folks into a cessation of stupidity; it'll be fun....;)

Scott

Unfortunately, because of the leaf cover, I didn't notice the fungus until it was well established. NOW, of ocurse, I know to LOOK for it--I'll try the milk--hadn't heard that one--and I can't wait to try it on the PM I get on my phlox and monarda. Doesn't kill anything--doesn't spread to othe plants--but it is VERY ugly. How do you spray it? With one of the handpump sprayers? Does it work on black spot on roses?

I may break down and use a pre-emergent this spring--i don't think my hand elimination strategy is going to work with the Microstegium.

Melanie

Just so y'all know--I've been battling the "Micro" invasion for 7 years (since we purchased the property)---gets a little better every year--but I'm getting tired. Sisyphus got NOTHING on me!

melanie

Japanese Stilt Grass can be a tough customer ,Mel!!!!!! I am glad you mentioned it though. I went back to the Alien Pant Invaders web site. They give great recommendations for control and eventual elimination ( well okay control) of the invader.
This goes along with Gnh's original post and (I hope) the point I was really trying to convey about chemical usage. Though the site talks about chemical control for this weed, it also talks about its life cycle. In other words know your weed. We as gardeners should spend a little time studying our "unfriendlies" [Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer!!! lol] Appearently Microstegium is an annual weed and it is suggested the weed be topped during bloom to help eliminate the seeding process. Breaking the reproduction cycle. No chemical used. It also speaks of hand pulling as well. Chemicals as a last resort. Worth a read I feel.The home page is worth a bookmark. (imo)
perry

Here is a link that might be useful: Japanese stilt grass/ yer tax $'s at work

Yeesh. That stuff gets around. Looking at the distribution map, I'm flabbergasted that it hasn't gotten us in Massachusetts (yet), when the rest of southern New England and all of New York has been invaded.

Oh, I know ALL about the life cycle--and have successfully eliminated it (pretty much) in my YARD--but this is in one ofmy perennial beds--amongst the mother-of-all-thyme and golden oregano and blue catmint. I don't cook with any of these herbs--so I was thinking of trying a little chemical warfare--it's just so darned difficult to stay ahead of the Micro. Perhaps I SHOULD just run the lawnmower over that section a few times...I'll try that this summer.

melanie

I'm all for less chemicals ... I want to retire for a long time ...

But Scott you said "antagonistic bacterial counterculture" ... I think you meant a symbiotic antagonistic bacterial counterculture but that would only apply to a saprophytic mycotic myocyte of a antagonistic bacterial counterculture from a posative strain of a simple bacterial counterculture .... in other words low fat 2 % milk NOT skim milk .....

I was almost impressed .....

Good Day ....

Phooey. I thought you were talking yoghurt, there.

The last 6 or 7 posts are a great piece of this thread - many times when we are reworking an old garden for a new owner, we come across colonies of hang-on-for-life plants like goutweed, lysymachia nummularia, bittersweet, bindweed, and so on. As Perry said, it pays to know your enemy. Always look stuff up in the various weed and invasives books that I carry in the van. Later I may check out more sources on the internet. Then figure out a strategy to best the plant invader without harming everything else. Often we end up grubbing it out by hand but we have tried other methods depending on the plant and its habits. This subject would make a good new thread . . .

Tony--forgot to mention--that is EXACTLY the site I refer people to when they complain about the "weird grass" in their yards "that even the RABBITS won't eat." Deer either. IT IS EVIL.

melanie

Cady , Yoghurt works too...

Mohave, all I want to do is establish a colony of Lactobaccillus on the plant so the other germs go home or can't move in. Does it really matter if it's skim or 2%? (I don't think so but I'm asking here...?...) Good Day...

Melanie, it's less effective as a treatment for infection than as a preventitive measure. My organic goddess (and radio buddy) Lisa says it has been known to knock out early black spot, but not reliably; it is, however an excellent preventitive. Mildew on the other hand is gone in a day or two, if not hours for lighter infestations. Neem oil is friendly and and kills everything, fungus, mites, insects (I don't think it kills stilt grass, as I've never seen it damage a plant). Tad smelly; bit like curry, but damned effective stuff. I would be at a loss without mine and probably would have to use something that Mohave cooked up to do my gardening otherwise (perish the thought).

Invasive non-natives was yet another priority of the previous administration buried by this one; hope we can get one that moves it to a front burner again...

I was just kooking out with the milk stuff ...

Your idea is quite interesting. What plants are you using it on ?

Good Day ...

Does this milk and water mix work on black mold like the stuff that forms on leaves when sugars from sucking insects gets on the leaf surfaces?

Venezuela, if you mean honeydew from aphids, yes it should.

Mel and Mohave, I'm using it on all my vegetables (much less blossom end rot than many friends and neighbors suffered in last year's rainy spring) and on my monarda in the butterfly garden. Because it works on a more mechanical method (no room at the inn) it should concievably work for any air or waterborne fungus of leaves, much the same way beneficial mycorrhizal fungii edge out rhizoc and its ilk...

Here is a link that might be useful: Living Soil

Scott ,

There is some research going on that would even suggest Lactobaccillus may be pre arming the plant to be prepared to defend itself against the Fungi and other pathogens ..

Good Day ...

After a long absence from gardenweb, I stumble on this new forum. What a coincindence because I have been absent because I told myself no cruising the web until I had finally eradicated the ivy that is threatening to strangle the north border of my property. I bought a 40 year old home from the original owner. This owner had done the original landscaping way back when so i had some very nice, well established plants...mostly natives. Pinus contorta contorta, Doug Fir, Redwood, Coffeeberry, Manzanita, a glorious and huge ceanothus, Port Orford Cedar. But I also got ivy plants that went on forever, a dying pear tree, a dying Monterey Pine, liquid ambers and norway maples planted way to close together.

I have thought of the seven year process more a rehabilitation process. I went at it like triage: remove the dying pine, thin the maples, prune and try to bring back the pear. Little by little remove that damn ivy. I finally got back to the two mother plants.....with stems as big around as my upper arm. IT has been a three year process gettign rid of it two lawn waste bins a week. I have had great fun replanting that denuded area....using natives only....tiarella, saxifrage, heucheras, dicentra, ribes, Oso berry, ceanothus, evergreen huckleberry, more manzanita, native hazelnut, mountain mahogany. I am glad it took me so long to remove it all because it gave me time to reallythink about what I wanted there. 7 years ago Iwas largely ignorant of CA natives having moved here from the midwest.

I have always been an organic gardener so ecological principles go without saying.What I have noticed during this whole process is to get it done right takes enormous patience, hard work and knowledge. OR lots of money so you can hire the right folk to do it for you pronto. Unfortunately the average person seens not to have any or all of the above. Not that it is theei fault. Americans work longer hours than most of our first world counterparts. Because we want to or because we must just ot make ends meet. So when I look around my forty year old neighborhood I see either sadly neglected and overgrown yards....or unispired bonsaid/poodle cut plants tended to by mow/blow/go guys. There are a few folk who like to garden and have "restored" their yards but only after patronizing the big box retail/hardware places and ending up with the safe things: margurites, junipers, roses, agapanthus, etc. The natives dont seem to be considered even though we have at least 3 wonderful native plant nurseries nearby. I hope this can change and look upon my little back yard restoration as a step in the right direction.

Claire

Claire-
Your entire post would be excellent in the FAQs-to-come for this forum. The process and time frame is something that stymies many who want to set about redoing their gardens/landscapes and just don't know where to begin. It seems so overwhelming that they just don't do it. Sometimes it is a 5-7 year process. Your post would make a good new thread on the process of garden renovation: setting up a schedule, prioritizing, time-savers, moneysavers, etc. How about it?

Have you taken a look at the recent thread on Landscape Design re "Best Ways to Clear"? Should be of interest to you and others doing major renovation work.

Ginger