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Super Bore XXXVII and FieldTurf

spectre
20 years ago

Hello All:

I'm a huge sports fan, but one thing that I've not been able to watch since my team was last in is the Super Bowl. I'm sure that perhaps Cady, Scott, Melanie and others might be into it, but does anybody outside New England and North Carolina really care about this game? (rhetorical question). The rampant commercialism and hype really turns me off.

But that's just a rant. This is the GR Forum, so let me ask the real question...I believe they are using FieldTurf at Reliant Stadium for the game. Many parks and fields have started installing it because of the "real" feel to it and lack of watering, maintenance, etc. I've seen it marketed in the past few years to high-end residential properties and it may only be a matter of time before it trickles down to the masses.

In light of the threads on ecological awareness, design errors, and historical accuracy, if you were renovating a garden, do you see any situation where you might use FieldTurf? For example, in tropical gardens around the world, palm glades (palms in a huge lawn) are a common feature, but since water is a precious commodity in the West and I want to keep the grass to a minimum, I'll never do it.

But FieldTurf may change that equation, though it's still too costly to me and no matter how real it it feels or looks, I know "it's fake."

How about you?

spectre

Comments (39)

  • The_Mohave__Kid
    20 years ago

    Hello Spectre...

    Where I work the city has considered artificial turf to replace the infields on our baseball fields .. the local college has replaced thier football field already with artificial turf ... there is also a golf driving range intown with artificial turf which makes perfect sense I think ...

    I have not measured it myself BUT have heard that in the summer the blacktop parking lot is cooler then the artificial turf ... Maybe a nasty rumor set out by pro turf advocates... I don't know.

    I do not know the specific brand that is being used. The biggest unknown ... how long will they last before they need to be replaced and at what cost ?

    Good Day ...

  • catkim
    20 years ago

    Point Loma High School and La Jolla High have artificial turf. Cost of maintenance made the decision. No more greenskeepers salaries, no more water. Repairs are basically cut and paste. Like TMK says, my son says it gets hot. I really don't see this as an issue with your typical suburban lot. I fell asleep during the game. (Yawn)

  • mjsee
    20 years ago

    pbbbbbbt :-P

    melanie

  • FranVAz7
    20 years ago

    Well, at Hillwood Museum and Gardens we are trying to maintain a creeping bentgrass putting green even though the site has changed radically in the past 50 years--towering evergreens shade it and the air circulation is poor. There has been talk of changing the turf type to something more tolerant of the situation or to artificial turf, but that wouldn't be authentic. So we do the extra work because of the commitment we have to restoring the gardens to the way they were in its heyday. So far we've been successful, but if the putting green deteriorates, the possibility of artificial turf will no doubt arise again, sacrificing authenticity of plants for authenticity of appearance.

  • Cady
    20 years ago

    What Melanie said. :-p

  • nandina
    20 years ago

    Here in the SC. Low Country the mole cricket problem is severe. We have to use serious chemicals which provide only moderate control of the situation. Also, the mole crickets quickly build up an immunity to each chemical. This low lying land drains into our rivers and marshes which are considered the 'nursery' of the Atlantic sea life. These new artificial grasses sound tempting for our situation. This may sound nuts....but, it could be a more 'organic' solution to our problem than trying to grow grass. While researching the product I noted it has a life span of 7-14 years. Has anyone found a square foot cost, installed?

  • spectre
    Original Author
    20 years ago

    Hey Mohave:

    Supposedly, it's supposed to have a warranty of 10 years and last longer than that. The "blades" are supposed to be fade-resistant. I've only seen the stuff at the home shows, but I know it's a sand and recycled-tire composite underneath the turf, giving it the bounce of real grass. Perhaps the rubber (they use it in asphalt) makes it warmer, but I'm only speculating. Catkim is right though when repairs are supposed to be a cut and paste operation.

    My question still stands . . .would you use FieldTurf in any situation or is it too new, fake, artificial, whatever, to use it in a garden restoration.

    And another thing, Melanie and Cady . . . if the game is so exciting, why aren't you watching the Super Bore instead of on your computers "pbbbbbbbting" at me on this forum?

    Oh, Melanie and Cady . . .

    spectre

  • Mundi
    20 years ago

    I have been reseaching artificial turf and some of the fields reach 120-150 degrees farenheit in the southern areas.

  • spectre
    Original Author
    20 years ago

    Here's a link to a sheet I came across from Mohave's neck of the woods. It claims $6/sq ft installation costs. Check it out.

    spectre

    Here is a link that might be useful: FieldTurf Promo Sheet

  • bahia
    20 years ago

    Seems like it would lend itself best to rooftop gardens...

    As to mole crickets, I don't really know what they are or how badly they affect lawns, but I can't imagine that they are any worse than moles and gophers for lawn imperfections. It would seem to me, accepting the level of imperfection is better than trying to kill them, if they are so damn hard to control. I suspect that some turf grasses are better than others at self repair in Nandina's area.

    As to ideal drought tolerant grasses here in California, I have found that Kikuyu grass, Pennisetum clandestinum is bullet proof here in coastal California, and can stay reasonably green with no water at all in a clay soil; much better than Bermuda grass or the Hybrid Tall Fescues that are supposedly so drought tolerant... (neither holds a candle to Kikuyu grass drought tolerance).

  • John_D
    20 years ago

    Just imagine a poor mole trying to push up a mound of soil under a field of artificial grass. (Or is that stuff glued to solid concrete?)

  • The_Mohave__Kid
    20 years ago

    My own view ... try some if you think there is a place for it but go slow and wait and see what it really can do overtime. Six dollars a foot is a lot of money ... a thousand square feet is nothing in a place like a park ...

    Outdoors here in summer does not sound like a good idea ( 115 F HOT air temp in the shade !! )

    Like I said earlier a very large golf driving range openned just at the beginning of the drought crunch ... lots of grass would have been a major expense in water and labor ... no one goes out onto the range except the guy in a cart to collect the balls ... so who needs real grass there ?

    Good Day ....

  • ginger_nh
    20 years ago

    What was with that turf last nite? The guys had green smears like grass stains on their uniforms, but never any dirt stains. . . The field had varied coloration - many shades of green, not the harsh bright green of astroturf; there seemed to be clumps of grass and pale colored, wispy stuff laying on the surface from time to time.

    Hey, my husband just now came into the computer room, and said it was REAL SOD last night-no wonder I saw these things! They did a piece during the game about the way they laid the sod, where it came from, and so on. Guess it wasn't FieldTurf after all. I went to bed after half time and didn't see the remainder. H-mmmm

    Ginger

  • bry84
    20 years ago

    The suposed beauty of a plastic lawn is that it allows a perfect lawn where it wouldn't normally grow.

    And, they're right to some extent. Lawns are all the same thing, from country to country, people make the same mistakes over and over again with their lawn. A person in spain will probably plant their lawn with the same genric box of seed I might buy here in London, just as the Americans who love their lawns seem to use the same few types of grass across a dozen zones. When you plant a thirsty grass variety in the desert as many uninformed people do, it's going to be forever hooked up to life support (the sprinkler system) and look suitably ill because of it. Choosing a type of grass that not just grows in your climate, but also thrives in it is vital, and should you use the wrong type you have allready failed and nothing will save your lawn from the ugly brown spots in summer and slimy mud effect in winter.

    Locating your lawn is also important. How many people look at their entirely exposed lawn with no shade in the middle of Texas and wonder why it's dying? If you want a lawn in a climate it's not naturally suited to, you have to at least locate it in a micro climate which favours it. Lawns in the desert should have trees/buildings around them to provide some shelter from the 90+ degree weather.

    People also don't prepair the ground before planting the lawn. They often don't level it or make the grade smooth and flowing, thus the lawnmower hacks in to the raised patches and water asorbs unevenly so grass in the dips grows faster in summer and drowns in winter. They don't ammend the probably poor quality soil with some sand and compost either. Fish blood and bone meal mixed in would ensure a lush lawn for several years too, just as water saving crystals would improve endurace during the dryer months. However, people usually dump the turf over whatever condition soil they have and forget about it. I've found some of the worst dead patches in lawns are caused by house bricks burried a couple of inches under the soil where they block the roots. Whoever layed the lawn obviously didn't know better to remove them, they didn't even know that turning over the soil with a fork and mixing in some sand was important.

    A plastic lawn will fix all of the above problems, but it's an expencive way to cheat. A properly installed lawn will cost thousands less, look so much more realistic and it won't get dry or dead unless the weather is very extreme. My south lawn has endured no rain for six weeks with average temps of 60-80 degrees without turning brown during last year's heat wave, and I don't have a sprinkler system either. In contrast the two lawns left by the previous people have been constantly sick looking and dead in patches. I intend to pull them up soon as they just seem to be getting worse.

    Bry

  • mjsee
    20 years ago

    Yup--grass stains galore--having read Spectre's post I was thinking "WOW! That IS realistic!" Missed the discussion on the laying'o the turf--glad to have THAT mystery cleared up.

    I can't think of ANY time I'd use the new fake grass--except on a theater set. THEN it might come in handy! I will keep that in mind...

    If y'all quit watching at half-time--you missed a good game--and I don't even like football. Bummer that the Panthers lost...the many males at this house (DS had 4 buddies over)were quite disappointed.

    melanie

  • ginger_nh
    20 years ago

    Plastic lawns, spectre - is that a '50's landscape design carry-over? (smile)

    I do like what Nandina suggests re golf course putting greens; in some situations it may be more saving of the environment to use plastic turf.

    G.

  • Cady
    20 years ago

    Melanie,
    Apparently, Janet Jackson's halftime performance was a "booby prize" for Carolina fans. Sheesh.

    Real turf is very much coveted on New England playing fields. This week, at the New England Grows! tradeshow, one of the scheduled speakers is the head groundskeeper at Fenway Park. He's going to talk about greating the perfect grass playing field. I'm planning to go to that.

  • mjsee
    20 years ago

    I asked the guys who were watching on the "big" tv in the basement if they got a glimpse of areola--they said a brief one. I was upstairs, hiding (and flipping back and forth between HGTV and the game for the first half!) and all I could see was a lighter spot--couldn't tell whether the boob had actually been bared or not. Honestly, I found Kid Rock's "poncho" WAY more offensive than Ms. Jackson's display. And my extended family refers to ME as the "earthy-cruchy-inclusive-anythingoes-liberal." One SHOULD NOT desecrate the flag for a fashion statement. Political statement--I'll defend you...even if I disagree. Fashion statement? Please leave!

    melanie

  • ginny12
    20 years ago

    On behalf of the World Champion New England Patriots (self-appointed defender), and as a female fan who only follows the home teams and is not therefore into every arcane bit of footballiana, that was one of the most exciting, thrilling, nail-biting Super Bowls ever! Check out the websites of a few major newspapers around the country, if you don't take my word for it. Fifteen (15) victories in a row by a team that wins in the snow, wins in Arctic cold, wins with injuries, wins with players other teams have passed by. And, to get back to the subject, wins on torn-up turf AND on last-minute replacement turf--mandated by the NFL--and laid in January on frozen subsoil. GO PATRIOTS!!!

  • spectre
    Original Author
    20 years ago

    Ginny, you wouldn't happen to be a New England Patriots fan, would you? Just wondering. And since you're running good-natured smack at us, let me remind you of something. The "most exciting, thrilling, nail-biting Super Bowls ever" is also the first one overshadowed by the halftime show. I was watching the local news and it was, "Super Bowl . . . Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake . . . exposed . . . oh yeah, New England won." So much for "Up With People."

    And Melanie, I have an unedited picture of the "booby prize" that was shown on TV (uhhh, I was Googling....errrrr....major FCC violations). Unlike the prudish American public, people reading newspapers from Australia to UK saw the unedited pic. (As an aside, why don't people get as upset by a scene of someone's head being demolished by a shotgun? But that's for another forum). If you're interested in what all the commotion is about, let me know so and I can keep abreast of what's going on. Yeah, in spite of what I said to start this thread, the DH and I went to Chili's for dinner and I started watching the game; I was more offended by the music than I was by JJ's star pastie.

    I hope we can all remain bosom buddies after this mammoth spectacle, Ginny.

    spectre

  • Cady
    20 years ago

    I saw the photo too. Yeah, it was a crass, stoopid publicity stunt. But what do I care? The Pats won. Go PATS!!! As a New Englander and Pats fan, I just have to say, spectre, that it's all tit for tat. :D

  • spectre
    Original Author
    20 years ago

    Cady:

    LOL, I was trying to think of another pun when I wrote my last post, but I think yours is the best so far. Since I'm not from Boston, I could not possibly care any less; sorry I feel that way, but it's something I had to get off my chest.

    spectre

  • mjsee
    20 years ago

    It wasn't a pasty. It was a nipple shield, held in place by a bar-bell piercing. No, I don't HAVE one--just have some interesting friends. All I can say is, OUCH.

    That said--it was just a boob. Americans can be so uptight....

    melanie

  • spectre
    Original Author
    20 years ago

    Melanie:

    Hear, hear. Americans are too uptight. If you've been to any of the European Caribbean islands, you may be familiar with the common practice of topless or nude sunbathing there. It's always the Americans who are standing on the cliffs and berms above, fully-dressed with cameras and tongues hanging out.

    Always cracks me up when I used to drive near Houston on business and on I-45, there would be a billboard with a Bible psalm and evangelical church advertising and, to its immediate side at the same height, a billboard for a XXX video store.

    Hey, there's a new application for Field Turf . . . fake, plastic anatomical parts for Super Bowl halftime shows!!

    spectre

  • ginny12
    20 years ago

    Missed the whole thing--we were having dinner and listening to the local radio coverage during the --uh-- non-coverage. My only comment is that the Jackson family is worthy of an "Abnormal Psychology" textbook all by itself. An entry for every pqssible dysfunction. And, Spectre, you should care about the World Champion (have I mentioned that?) New England Patriots if only because Most Valuable Player (and wicked cute) Tom Brady is a native Californian. Born and bred. Whole family there. Check it out!

  • venezuela
    20 years ago

    Back to the artificial turf------

    The heat absorbed, and then given off by artificial turf will make surrounding temperatures worse but then poisoning the environment to try and kill mole crickets isn't any better. I like neither solution, why do people have to have "perfect " lawns in the first place. However, I am sure that it will catch on in Southern California. Instead of pouring concrete and painting it green or putting down green gravel the folks there will jump on this opportunity to have that "perfect lawn". Spectre, if enough of your neighbors jump on the band wagon it may even raise temperatures around you enough to change your climate from subtropical to tropical----- then you could grow all those things you only drool over now!!!!!!! chris

  • spectre
    Original Author
    20 years ago

    Ginny, LOL, I know Tom Brady is from San Mateo County in the Bay Area . . . he grew up idolizing Joe Montana, which I did too. (I'm a 49ers fan). I came close to putting that in my post, but I didn't because I thought you'd come back with, "so what, the World Champions are in Boston." I was born and raised in the Bay Area too.

    Unfortunately, the Jacksons also grew up in California, but at least they're born in Detroit. Have you ever noticed that you never see LaToya, Michael, and Mary Tyler Moore together at the same time? Hmmmmm?

    BTW, all kidding aside, congrats. I know how fun it is to have your team go all the way (even if it was nine years ago for mine).

    spectre

  • Cady
    20 years ago

    Spectre,
    You could have pointed out that the whole Jackson-Timberlake stunt was a bust.

    heh heh

  • mjsee
    20 years ago

    And how much of a boob did Timberlake prove himself to be with his "cover" story? Wardrobe failure my Aunt Fanny.

    melanie

  • Cady
    20 years ago

    Well, that will just be an unpleasant mammary for him.

  • The_Mohave__Kid
    20 years ago

    Chris ...

    I am not a fan of fake grass ... out here it is water restrictions that is getting some on the band wagon ... and our contract is due to be renewed so it is a bargaing chip for some !!!

    Good Day ....

  • ginny12
    20 years ago

    Spectre, hang in there. Nine years is nothing. The Celtics last ruled the world in the mid-80s and dare I mention the star-crossed Red Sox--1918 was our last World Series championship. We are starved for glory hereabouts. However, the turf at Fenway is perfection, and nothing fake about it, just to conclude on-topic. Or should I add, in all seriousness, that such an old and historic ballpark is also part of our American landscape and worth preserving. There's a bit of a battle about that in these parts.

  • AshaK
    20 years ago

    gerorge toma and now his son, of the KC Chiefs is a hero of mine. I guy so good at growing grass that he has been awarded his own "day" by several cities; having saved the day on the field. George's fanatical crew carry thier own personal reel mowers to the site... at hss practice fields for the Chiefs he has a system that can grow a perfect field which can be practiced on two times a week!! and still looks perfect. I love a plant fanatic like this even if i wouild not wish to do what he does.But i do like mowing with a reel mower, and making a lawn really perfect! I love the wzy some baseball teams mow to show the mowing strips - some lawn artists are quite obviously better than others, the Oakland A's are quite good!. Anyway the lawn is a great place for "tidy mainia".
    At a Green Bay play off game a few years ago they had no grass that time of year, George replaced all the grass with new turf that was specially grown for him in Virginia and was cut at 1 ft thick and installed so that you could not see or feel any seam!!
    But if you haven't got George then you have a problem on a field which can get very high temperatures on field, can be hard to drain in a heavy rain etc. I personally prefer the turf system which the Seahawks use which incorporates both plastic and real grass. This gives a good feel and yet it resists compaction (because of the plastic blades) and so is easier to grow and easier to build and drain.
    Though i'm not thinking i have a need for this at my house...
    - A

  • spectre
    Original Author
    20 years ago

    Asha:

    When you said Oakland A's, you weren't looking at my home page, were you? When I had the ability to attend A's games, I always marveled at the patterns the mowers created!

    George Toma is a grass god. 49er fans are well acquainted with him because the Niners, in their heyday, would always have home playoff games. Candlestick Park's field is slightly below bay level, and since playoff games are played in during our rainy season, the field would essentially be green mud. Toma was always called in to do something to keep the field together at the Stick. Usually lasted well into the second half. If Toma couldn't fix it, no one could (or can).

    I didn't know that real grass and FieldTurf could be mixed? How do they accomplish that without having the real stuff torn out easily. Mesh of some kind?

    spectre

  • naheat_netzero_com
    20 years ago

    The worst part for me was losing out on 100 dolalrs. I was ina pool and had the numbers in the 2nd quarter...until Carolina decided to show up and play.:)

    I havent been to out Invesco field here in Denver (the corporate redo of historical Mile High Stadium) so Im not sure but I believe they went with Field grass. Didn't help them much this year. Oh well Elway is up for football hall of fame though... he did more for the Broncos then nayone here.

    It took one boob to show another one. I think his are real too.

  • catkim
    20 years ago

    Back to field turf, I see in the Sunday paper that the city of Anaheim is doing an experimental installation of artificial turf at five residential homes, and a few commercial sites. The city will track water use for these homes to determine water savings. The artificial turf has a 15-year life. So far, the homeowners are said to love it.

  • Cady
    20 years ago

    I picked up the local paper last week, and noticed that a nearby city was considering installing artificial turf on three of its high school and middle school football fields.

    The school superintendent cited the difficult upkeep of natural turfgrass, and the fact that the fields were reduced to "muddy bare messes" within the first couple weeks of practice.

    I guess that as artificial alternatives become more and more affordable, that will be the way many stadiums and school atheletic dept.s will choose to go.

  • mjsee
    20 years ago

    Except--I thought natural turf was better for the players? Easier on the knees and such? It's one thing to have the PROS playing on "mean" surfaces--they are getting paid. But HS kids?

    melanie

  • Cady
    20 years ago

    I wonder about that too, Melanie. The school department seemed more focused on issues of maintenance and drainage. It won't surprise me if someone brings up the issue of injuries.

    From what I've heard about artificial turf, it does provide some "give" but can also cause knees and heads to bounce on impact, rather than have the impact of the fall absorbed by natural soil - even when the soil is compacted.

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