Yes. And Peonies aren't "old lady flowers" when used appropriately--they are incredible, long lived perennials...and EXPENSIVE (a quick web search showed an average price of between $35-$55 EACH.) I hate (most)hostas--but would never toss divisions without clearing it with the homeowner/friend first (I'm an amatuer, my help/advice is all gratis to friends and family.) You told the home owner you would move his peonies--not "a representative group." Do you have any idea how much a large, old division is worth? Not to mention (although not a factor in THIS case) that many peonies have been passed down through generations....

Just MHO--but I think you need to work on your communications with clients, if you plan to pursue this as a profession.

melanie

when i was a kid, i hated to prune my grandmother's peonies after memorial day. i have one peonie bush and would like to bring the blooms in but they are full of ants.

Yes, perhaps your bias came through. I hate the thought of trashing perfectly good plants, even if I don't like them. I've put things out on the curb with a "free" sign on them and they disappear pretty fast. My comment is more on the perception of plants and how mine has changed. I used to think of a lot of types of flowers as "old lady" as you say. Then I bought my house 3 yrs. ago and inherited a yard-full of plants such as, among other things, peonies, iris, and mums for ex. that I appreciate now, though I would have never planted them myself. I think I like peonies best when the flowers are a big, round, fat bud just about to pop open-fascinating! But the flowers are beautiful of course. I do hate the black spot the leaves get though and I haven't learned what to do about it yet.

Communication is important when dealing with clients; I'm a hairstylist and I sure know about that! You'll do better next time.

Melanie, you can send me any hostas you don't want; I love 'em! ; )

Let me get this straight..."old lady" is a negative term? ;>)

EO

EO--Well, not to me! I'm headed that way already! (Particularly after a day of rock hauling...oy.)

Ginatru--if I had any to send, truyst me, I would. Luckily, this property was "Hosta Free." Wish I knew WHY I dislike them so...probably frightened by one when I was a kid.

melanie

I hate to sound politically correct but the term "old lady" in this context is really demeaning. And further, a large proportion of the greatest gardeners in both American and British landscape history were older women. Gertrude Jekyll and Ellen Willmott from the other side of the pond and Louise Beebe Wilder and Helena Rutherfurd Ely over here, to name but a few.

And Alice Harding was THE expert on peonies for decades. Orders of Merit from the French government etc. Her two books on peonies were combined and printed as one several years ago, with a foreword by Roy Klehm.

For more recent examples, take a look at the marvelous collection of older women gardeners in Starr Ockenga's wonderful book, "Earth on Her Hands".

Don't mean to sound preachy, jenizone5, but you might think a bit more about clients, plants and your attitude towards them as you pursue your profession.

There is a very well written potted history of the genus Paeonia (the name comes from Paean who was the helper of the god of medicine) in this months 'Gardens Illustrated" written by Sandra Knapp. I am not sure if Sandra Knapp is an old lady but she writes enough to enthuse any peony lover, or even hater.
She tells of a tree peony that was brought back from China in 1820 and by 1835 it had more tha 300 white flowers blotched with purple. Reginald Farrer found another one a hundred years later and wrote: "Holding my breath with growing excitement as I reached my goal...breath of them went out upon the twilight as sweet as any rose. For a long time I remained in worship." Reginald Farrer was not an old lady although he was clearly smitten.
There are numerous plants that come with negative baggage and if this is the clients baggage then you have to respect it no matter how silly, if it is your prejudice however, you have to swallow it. If this gives you nightmares try an infusion of peony root.

Actually, the more I think of the peony murder, the crankier I get. I only have three peonies--and would have many more if I could
A) Afford them
B) Had another spot for them...but mostly A! If I could afford 'em I'd FIND the spot!

MAYBE next fall!

melanie

No one heard the humor in my post? I guess I do need to work on my communicating. The society to lament any daylily demise will fry me. Did I mention this was a rental, (badly neglected). Did the suspicion that my friend had no idea what he wanted, except to have it look better ever cross anyone's mind? Did I convey that it was my idea to save the peony, by moving it to the back fenceline? Has anyone here moved an extensive clump (4' x 20') of misplaced peony? I contend that if you try, there will be a few broken off roots and sprouts. Whether he stated so or not, I don't really think my client would OK 2 hours @ $25/hr of my finding "takers" for the free peony extras. I also try to keep clients yards debris free. My experience has led me to believe they appreciate this.
I don't need to defend myself, the peony police do not know where I live, and I can point out the healthy, happy, relocated and staked peonies in the backyard, but I must be very careful of posting.
Jeni
(when I grow up I want to be an old woman)

Jeni--no your humor did not come through. Yes, I "got" that it was a rental--thought your client was the home owner who was re-claiming it for some reason--not that your client was a renter.

Your friend had no idea what he wanted, what he had? Perhaps, as a landscape proffessional, it was your job to educate him? No, you did NOT convey that it was YOUR idea to "save" what peonies were saved.

Yes, I HAVE moved and renovated a clump like that--PITA--and NO--you didn't make it sound like "only a few roots and sprouts." Sounded like whole divisions got ditched. As to finding "takers"--If you had dumped what you threw away into a box of damp newspaper, with a sign that said "Peony roots/eyes--free to good home" you wouldn't have needed to spend much of your client's money. OR you could have dumped them into said box and then phoned the client to see what he wanted to do with them.

You do not need to defend yourself--but you DID ask the question "Do you think my dislike of peonies compromised my client service?" and we answered you. Maybe not the way you wanted us to answer, but with what we thought. My grandmother (an old lady who had LOVELY peonies--they smelled wonderful)used to say--"Don't ask questions if you don't want an answer!" Sorry we missed the humor...sorry you felt attacked.

melanie/will probably be an old lady before I grow up.

I am with Melanie on this one. In a forum about garden restoration and preservation, it's pretty difficult to read about plants being destroyed.
As you phrased it, Jeni, this came across as a pretty careless act on your part, even if it wasn't your intention nor the reality of it in your eyes. I'm sorry you are feeling misunderstood.
As Ginatru said, it's a learning experience and if it helps you to improve your service in the future, some good came from it.

Well, I can see the welcome mat is out at the front door but nobody lives there. While we're putting labels on plants, don't forget the 'terrorist flower', Caster Bean. As Ginny12 will tell you, the height of irresponsibility to plant them! And she has news paper clipings to prove it, which is, of course, the final word. Personally, I love 'Old Lady Flowers' like Peony, Lark Spur, Lily of the Valley, Oriental Poppy, Amaranthe, Lilacs, Bleeding Hearts, Hydrangea, the list goes on. Many of the plants in my garden have been given to me by Old Ladies (imagine). Please don't pretend that you all don't know what the poster is talking about and you are so pompous as to feel the need to swoop down and make things in your own tidy little sense of what's right. Shame on you for being so indignant (another word for boring)...

Patrick--I'm confused. Are you upset/annoyed with the peony defenders, jenizone5, or ALL of us? I'll admit to my indignation--RIGHTEOUS indignation even (perhaps "SELF RIGHTEOUS?") but I'm one of those people who periodically has to blitz my beds and remove most of the cleome and phlox because I have such a hard time destroying plants...

I am CON-FU-SED. Not an unnatural state for me....
;~)

melanie

(PS--the use of emoticons, while annoying, DOES help convey "tone of voice" in postings!)

Yes, you certainly did compromise your customer service and the possibility of any referrals. Jim

What are you talking about Patrick? you sound like an old woman, any more of this and we shall need to find a place for you along the back fenceline with jeni's old penies.

Without old ladies we wouldn't be here. Agree with INK that Patrick sounds more pompous and indignant than those he criticizes. A funny world . . .

Look at this painting by a GW poster from China:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/gardart/msg0208220126353.html

Ginger

Dear Patrick,
You are so gallant!
The friend/client is well pleased. I have already been paid and retained for more work, even though I was 10% over estimate. (Partly peony induced.)
Jeni
forever now to be known as peony-slayer

Jeni-
I can identify with your situation in the area of clients wanting plants saved and replanted. Just met with a couple yesterday; 2 years ago I put in very nicely crafted landscape design for them including trees, shrubs, perennials in foundation plantings, an ornamental grasses garden, a meditation/woodland garden, two large island beds, and a forsythia bed. We continue to do the maintenance on the gardens. Their home sits on the side of a small mountain and is an unusual(for NH)California-looking modern home. We were inspecting the plantings to see how things came through over our harsh winter. They lost a few perennials and 3 hollies were quite winterburned; all else looked good. At the mention of replanting the damaged material, they immediately took off in the direction of the holding bed. Although I did try to use some of the ordinary, tough plants that had been doing well in the gardens planted be former owners, there had been quite a few leftover plants.

They now want even more of these plants worked into the design: 1 PGM rhodo, several clumps of blue German iris, 2 garish purple garden phlox, about a square yard of plain green hosta,1 unknown variety large leaf rhodo, about 2 square yards of violent pink ground phlox. These plants do not fit in the current garden design.

Similar to your predicament and a common happenstance in garden renovation work.

Glad your situation worked out well for you and your client/friend.

Ginger

Inky, I will meet you at the back fence anytime, as long as you bring the bourbon. Ginger, in a previous life, weren't you a professional listener? Funny world indeed, Ha Ha! And Mel, To answer your question, I am not upset with any peony lover's lamment (or you), but rather the lack of Reading comprehension, and finger shaking. Jeni was seeking a little EMPATHY (note the emotion :) from the group concerning a client that freaked out on her during an installation, when he came home and found the yard had changed. Surprise! She told him the plants were gonna leave, and, by golly, their gone!!! The peonies are not the subject of the post, more like an ingredient in a stew. The PC issue is upsurd (shake that cane, Gramma [give me a break]). Jeni, you would have been better served to post at the pro gardeners forum, where there lives other designers that have dealt with clients loosing it during the demolition phase. oh, and for the record, the client owned a rental, and was not a renter. Gee, pompous and indignant, funny...

OLD LADY FLOWERS???????????
If you and others are lucky,you may become an old lady someday....Think about it,...I happen to love all flowers,especially peonies!

Thanks for clearing that up. And here I thought Jeni was asking if she ahd let her hatred fo peonies compromise/cloud her professional judgement...or perhaps we are all reading this post throught the lens of personal experience? I understand the destruciton phase of RE-construction--you should see my front yard right now

melanie

or old ladies and their flowers. I did wonder if my post was uncomprehensible. It was 3 in the morning and I couldn't sleep. (not because I was doubting my work mind you, us old ladies sometimes have insomnia) I also try to condense details to keep posts from being long. I will try not to offend in the future. Could you post a list of phrases not allowed?
A holding bed is a good idea, Ginger. That is what the back fenceline was used for. Since we were going to work on the backyard next, and hadn't done the design yet, I was a bit concerned about planting things that would have to be moved again.
There is a tremendous gap between $500 designs and $20,000 designs. Additional labor quickly cuts down on the quality/quantity of plants you can buy when working with a limited budget. I was trying to keep the client in mind.
I know I shouldn't reply at this point, I am hoping this post quickly falls off the page.
By the way, this is not an apology.

Jeni--didn't expect you to apologize! I understand about the 3:00 am thing...there is no list of words that offend. Welcome to our (occaisionally) contentious group--as long as you give as good as you get we'll have fun.

melanie

Just when I thought it was safe... I've notice a few things that might help. On these forums and email as well...sarcasm doesn't read, neither does subtle double meanings or any sublime humor, ambivalence, complex human expression, etc., etc. My conclusion on that...keep it simple, keep it straightforward. For goodness sakes, don't be clever. And if you do, be prepared for whatever comes after. Someone will surely misunderstand, and they will try sarcasm, or humor, or cleverness and then we are all in trouble because no one is really saying what they mean...or are they??? Anyway, you see my point. I hope.

jenizone5, It was quite obvious you were referring to a rental property. And it was also quite obvious that you were trying to comply with a request to keep the peonies. You did not compromise your work due to your peony aversion. There is not one person on this forum, NOT ONE, who has attempted to divide and move a living thing, and not damaged it in some way, lost some parts of it, or had the whole darn thing just plain die after transplant. And also, NOT ONE of us hasn't pulled out in hatred some plant that someone else on this forum just loves and finds charming, yada yada yada.

We all know that as you are gardening, decision are made on the fly as to what needs to happen and anyone coming in after the fact with a criticism probably doesn't have all the facts. Communicating with a customer or a hired gardener is very subjective at best, as those on-the-fly decisions do still have to be made. I've learned this the hard way as a customer and I have begun to realize that if I don't want to do all the work myself (I don't) I need to just look at the big picture of my goals and be willing to accept if the details aren't exactly what I wanted. (Especially if I didn't say or think of those details until the work was already done.)

jennizone5 - If you have read this far, I am curious about what you did before you were gardening. How did you make that transition? It's a fantasy of mine....

P.S. I hate peonies too. Any of you peony lovers are welcome to come over and rescue the dozen+ that will succomb to my blade before this season is over. (I'm not kidding, I really don't like them, but I know others would care for them. I think they've been here forever.)

:::sniff:::
I miss peonies.
These were sent to me overnight mail, stuffed in a box, from MD, by someone who knows how much I regret being unable to grow them in my zone. They survived even that. I'd come rescue yours in a split second if I could, happydaisy.
Tess

Tessa--I feel for you! What variety is that, do you know? That's what I THOUGT I bought. I love my "pinies" (what my MIL calls them) but they aren't the color I THOUGHT I was getting--more of a cerise...still, they are in year three and LOADED this spring.

Thinking of you!

melanie

My house came with peonies when I bought it. I couldn't stand them when they flopped over, and I didn't want to have to put those dopey peoney support rings on them. Danged if I was going to let my neighbors see me tending to peonies like some old lady. :^P

I plotted and schemed to dig them up and give them an "underhand burial" into the shrubs, but no one told me that peonies have roots like grappling hooks. They wouldn't budge. So, 10 years later, I am resigned to having those droopy, dopey peonies along the fence. I knew I'd thrown in the towel for real when I BOUGHT one more peony to fill in an empty spot at the end of the row.

Sad. Just sad.

For the brief moment that their huge, floopy, sweet-smelling flowers bloom, they are in grace. The rest of the time, they are garden demon's spawn.

Cady, honey, I'll dig 'em up for you. I have JUST the place....he he he he

melanie

Jeni, like so many things, it's a case of communication being needed. If you're going to be removing existing plants or radically altering them with pruning, it's something you need to explain and discuss in depth with the client. The more you talk about it the less likely they are to come back and say they didn't expect the outcome.

Cady, I know this is really going to upset a few elderly ladies (while conversely have Jeni the peonie killer cackeling with glee), but you could have exterminated them with roundup...

I used to despise peonies once. Then I moved in to this house and inherited a few dotted around the place in flower beds, I can't say I was thrilled, but I left them and over time I've realised I quite like them and would even consider buying a few more. They have nice foliage, their flowers are long lasting, and they get bigger and better each year. It seems a lot of the old fashioned plants/flowers are seen as dull and contrite now, so predictable and dated, but on the other hand they have been extensively cultivated and grown for years and allways seem to thrive in the right places.

Melanie, I don't know the variety of my gift peonies. My gentleman friend inherited them in his garden. These were a powdery pink speckled with a deeper pink and smelled oh-so-divinely. Even those fat round buds you can see in the picture opened, much to my surprise.
Tess
ps - my maternal grandmother (my mam-mommie, in true NC-style, also said "piynies")

Ginny, I have the book : Earth on her hands and I absolutely loved it. But there is no plant that is representative of old ladies only, in large part because what is "in" or what we associate with certain plants is a social construct and changes with time. Just think of old fashioned roses, are they old ladies' plants? Or old gentelmen's plants for that matter? What any one person likes or dislikes is totally personal.

How do you pronounce "peony"? I really don't know but I love the things!

pee-oh-nee--with the accent on the pee.
THUS: PEE-oh-nee
melanie

Peonies are a young boys delight. Covered with ants. Resembling marbles with velvety veins of whites, reds and pinks just before opening. To see all the adults scream at me to get away from those flowers! They knew how a kids imagination could get the best of a cutting flower bed.

Then to see The peonies bend and kink at the stem with top heavy flowers when you thought nothing else could be as curious since after the ants left. Watching someone snipping them and complaining they were a little late in doing so. Kids love hearing adults complain about a flower garden. To see them running to get the last flowers inside the house asking themselves why they procastinated. Maybe Im exaggerating but those were my impressions as a young boy.

Then to find a torrential downpour lay all the colorful petals upon the cultivated soil. ThatÂs also a fascinating process for a young boy to learn in of itself. Because I remember first hand how I conveniently watered the garden before anyone woke up in the morning. Can you remember those early weekend mornings while adults were sound asleep and the outside world seemed a special playground for those couple of hours? With the garden hose in hand at full power. Blasting off the peonies still clinging under the canopy of a maple trees leafs. CouldnÂt help but experience the power of nature first hand! Peonies! What a great plant. I was also so short IÂd have to bend the stalks that were hooped to see what the tips looked like after all the peddles came of. What a mess! My grandfather always kept the soil cultivated and fluffy. No mulches or chemicals. I can remember the tuberous roots as my toes squished into the mud from all that effort to get the recently and young blosoms to fall of as easily as flowers way past thier prime. Some rainy nights playing flash light tag with nieghbors I'd hide in the dense clump of Peonies. Only to have all the old flower petals fall onto my head if I shook the stalks. The white ones were slimy and brownish and stuck to my cheeks. AHH...Taking the wiffle ball bat and having a grand ole time praticing my swing along with a few close friends aroung the nieghborhood gardens. We just didnt know how speciall the viewing of perfect a perfect peony flower could be. That took some time started by working alongside my grandfather and eventualy lossing my breath at the the following years assination of the peonies by my previuosly fun pals just finding a way to have a laugh.

On another note my Great Grandfather planted the peonies throughout the 40's into the early 70's. The same summer I was finding Peonies as a plant of many fun activities from ant behavior to demolition I inherited the appreciation of a well weeded and cultivated peony bed. Edged and cultivated using soil hooks gently to not disturb the shallow roots. They became a source of pride and a connection to manhood for a very young imaginative boy. Finding my grandmother encouraging my efforts the following year to keep Nono's peonies clean of weeds and watching for the earliest possible time the take a few cuttings inside for the kitchen windows. She cooked in the kitchen all day it seemed. I was playing at dirt bomb fights with cousins in the recently tilled vegetable garden while trying to figure out when I should get back to weeding before she caught me goofing around.

All in all peonies in my life have been the old mans flower. A young boys learning process and responsibilities connected with a flower that was bigger in meaning than I could perceive at a young age.

Whenever I came across a peony phrase such as the "old ladyÂs flowers", I simply saw that person speaking such thoughts as a stranger. Those Americans and English who found boredom with many of the flowers Italian men newer to America planted as the perfect complement to the properties constant gardening from flowers to vegtables.

Nothing offensive or rude by saying what I just typed. Simply meaning exactly that. People from a different backround. Almost culturally speaking. I'm now the stranger of my childhood impressions no longer having my grandfather around to give that defining diference of being a typical American or Italian who spends his time gardening. Maybe its wrong to divide people into groups. But this has something to do with my first experiences with peonies. Having been molded by not the English Style of Gardening as a phrase but as an adopted perennial into a style that was a blend of who and what my familly was. My great grandfather was Italian and most pictures have him with in sight of his gardens with flowers of all types. He along with my grandfather always seemed content with gardening. I am very different than my Great grandfather and grandfather. They accomplished so much more in life while still having every spare moment to be spent gardening. I find my time split between many unfinished hobbies.

Peonies represented one of the permanent fixtures left behind by my great grandfather. Always to be expected flowering every new year even as I find myself further removed physically from the same peony beds I grew up with. Further removed from the passions he felt so important to come home to. .My Great grandfather was the one who planted all the flower gardens and had many peonies incorporated into the design. Peonies now apprecited by his daughters. How sad would it be to call my grandmother some old lady. When her memories of her father planting those same peonies she loves to this day were of her memories as a young bueatifull girl and a strong father who probably still seemed invincable. Almost never thinking about his eventual mortality. Yeah, Peonies and old woman isnt such a bad idea. Its just not cool to make fun of the idea. I wouldnt want to type someting thinking I'd not want my grandmother reading this. Then the idea Old Ladys flower could almost be akin to mocking her memories and the importance of keeping a peony bed intact evnthough tastes change. Just goes to show how we all will be old and want younger people to apprecieate our initial love for a type of flower. Usually due to some loving memory that keeps you going.

Still sounds odd to think the mainstream world sees Peonies connected with women. Of course now as an adult I speak freely. But it wasnÂt to long ago that I dreaded to be associated with the stereotypes of Ladies and Peonies. I might have even pandered to the phrase of "I hate Peonies" just to be cool. Yet I always bit my tongue in the last moment before I insulted the appreciation of memories handed down from my Great grandfathers hard work and love for peonies planted on his property.

A good example was when the guys in school drove to my house during the first years in high school. Finding me working in the garden after school or on the weekend. TheyÂd drive by around eleven in the morning. Stop by again around three. And still find me working at eight thirty in the evening. If they stayed a little longer expecting me to go out partying IÂd finally give my answer. No. Simply Not tonight. I gonna wash up and and eat my dinner would be my answer. To me without ever telling my close friends I was happy and somehow emulating my grandfathers habits. Not consciously but as a natural process due to hard work and dedication. I didnÂt want to leave the garden. IÂd want to eat my steak and grocery tomato salad by the Peony bed looking at the vegetable garden plot slowly becoming turned by hand. Imagining the future sun warmed taste of a fresh juicy tomato. Sticking a small basil leaf from a seedling container behind my ear like a carpenters pencil while working the soil. So when IÂd pause to catch my breath I could smell the scent of basil and drool over the sensations of a fresh cucumber salad with vine ripened tomatoes. String beans with potatoes and pasta. . Oh my goodness do I miss my grandfather and our garden.

The good guys from school. Actually just one fella would sit by my grandfathers side both watching me till the garden. IÂd be oblivious but appreciated the slow friendship that grew between them while I mined my own business. Next thing I knew Junior Year brought on a social life that ended my reliability to tend the garden. IÂd find that same friend sitting by my grandfathers side watching the garden from the house by the same peony bed. Now it was that friend who was still asking me to hang out what a shame it is to have life change our habits we originally saw as work. I felt guilty I hadnÂt gave my grandfather the garden he expected but saw my best friend always giving his time to talk with my grandfather. They were very serious yet funny. No other guy from school could just sit beside my grandfather. Old school I guess. My grandfather could read a person quickly and accepted this guy as someone I should always recognize as having a good caring heart eventhough he was percieved as a little on the troublesome side.And not to let anyone tell me differently. To this day I respect my grandfathers wishes and call that schoolmate a true friend who spent quality time with someone I loved.

One girl would stop by in a car thinking she'd get my attention. With so little time and a shovel in my hand with no shirt on and a already dark spring tanÂ.. I was rushing to get things ready. Blisters, sweat stinging my eyes, dirt in my boots, knats exploring my ears. That girl must of stopped half a dozen times in three days asking where I was, what was I doing and when would I be available. Never going straight to talk to me. Shed go inside the house. Probably to see from my family if I was purposely avoiding her by working in the garden. Then she would walk out the back door and ask when would I be finished? IÂd reply , "When IÂm done" The funny thing was after a whole summer she always found me in the garden and eventually found this natural. When the spring and early summer season was over I was then driving to her house and found her busy doing something she appreciated. This was the beginning of a youthfull courtship leading to a lasting friendship to this day. Nothing more.

It is now thinking of this situation I was a fool not to stop working and at least cut some peony flowers for her and her mother. I was stubborn as a mule. Almost cocky. I guess I just wanted to prove the vegetable garden came first. My father and grandmother would say during those days go out and have fun, shes been waiting!!. But I knew as the sun would go down my grandfather would watch me work the last hour.s into darkness. Then come over and discuss this years plantings. I think he was proud to see me stick through it. Not running off like a chicken without a head. But it was a funny way to flirt with a girl never occurring this was what was happening way back then. Sure I put extra effort to show her how strong I was and everlasting with energy abounding while pretending I didnÂt notice her walking around the corner. What an idiot she must of thought me as. Boy was I stubborn. Then at during ten at night IÂd give her a call asking what she wanted as if I didnÂt know it was just for me to spend some time hanging out.

This cycle always started with the Peonies ready to bloom because that was when the frosts and mothers day was behind friends would inquire bout outdoor activities but my real work started then and into the summer. I could judge how friendships developed from the time a peony poked through the ground until it finished flowering. That was when spring initiated summer friendships when the school year was about to end.

I hope one day I could be that kid again sitting by the peonies dreaming about the summers vegetables to come.

How expensive peonies are never occurred to me until reading this thread. Seems like some people would go out of their way for some rootstock : ) . How such an unusually large flowering spring beauty as the peony can become richly imbued with personal memories is truly a flower of rare qualities. Akin to the Rose. Yet the thought back then did not develope into picking a bouquet of peonies like one would with roses for a woman your starting to court. I just thought of the Peonies as exhisting with no purpose for me at that time.

Now Peonies seem like a perennial to be planted in the garden when you later find yourselves sharing the same property with the one you love. Or simply the home you will call youre own but with a deeper sense of muturity thats not easy to explain. Cooking in the kitchen with cut peony flowers in vases. Some on the dining room table. A few more by the front door. A couple flowers in the bathroom.The kinda flower for home and giving to close friends showing how the gift represents an annual renewal of not just the common friendship shared but youre permanence as a residence of lasting qualities.. Then while in old age sharing cut peonies from the original clump with the continued friends of family from younger years. I think of how farms untouched by new money still have hundred year old clumps growing. Seeing generations of a families name grow up and move on. Not too many perennials can brag of such longevity. Sure roses have the same qualities but they seem more appropriate for those special defining moments like how the movies or commercial ads promote. Valentines Day and such .Temporary gratification to express love in a different manner. More like renewing the moments of the first months or year of infatuation. And they can be difficult in my Zone with freezing temperatures and soggy soils.

Planting peonies seems more like a statement of your readiness to settle into a home establishing roots. Husband and Wife declaring to go the long road of companionship.

Peonies cant start with the notion of being an Old LadyÂs Flowers!!! Planting peonies is a good beginning for the 20's and 30's of age when purchasing youre first home or appartment along with the chosen flowers can define youre personality. Using peonies might have the added connection to ideals and principles maybe forgotten and considered passe givin old traditions a fresh new startÂ... I guess many old ladies do have the luxury to say they lived out their dreams. Raised a family or lived another way just as special. Maybe we should be jealous of those old stereotypes. Sounds like the American dream and Old Ladies flowers such as the peony have much in common with our current aspirations.

Never knew I had this much to say about peonies. And I think as a man I would want them to represent my hard work as a lasting tribute to the love of a wife. So in some sense giving her in the last years of life good memories and showy flowers outlasting most relationships.

As a professional I donÂt mess with flowering peonies that will continue lving on many more healthy decades. I guess its because I never violated my Great Grandfathers peonies mostly due to everyones admiration of him and fear to lose something his hands touched. And by doing so many different experiences occurred using the peony as a reference of time and location. Always constant. Reliable. While many other perennials get bounced around and disappear over the decades on the same property. An old clump of peonies make me feel comfortable while working on a customers home reminding me of my originall home and upbringing. Maybe thses peonies can give sometype of similar emotion to the customer that I feel. Peonies give me the fighting chance to bring back the styles of gardening that wasnÂt solely based upon currebty realty sales and curb appeal.

Hopefully love and the continuation of life can be enhanced with an old clump of peonies. Especially for women who now take on so many roles in life. A peony can represent not the loss of traditions that her great grandparent may have had but the notion that any parent wants to see thier children live an easier life. ThatÂs why we are here in America. So peonies longevity connects us to the original aspirations of not only an easier life but a safer time without war and famine and persecution. such as many immigrants sufferede in WW2 and WW1. That is what I see the peony representing when planted by my great grandfather. A symbol of setting new deep roots to grow a colorful happy life for the family..Not a guady overused and typically old lady like style of planting.

The average customer no longer desires a long term relationship with a garden or gardener. I think this is true for most of my experiences. Many smile at me. Laugh at me. Promise me more work in the future and applaud my initial efforts. Some proclaim the home as the final and last home of their dreams. Promising a need for a long term relationship and tons of gardens to create. To many of these people I do not easily trust and feel uncomfortable working for. They sound like good news but I feel like they are even more like strangers and not to be trusted.

The customer that expects hard work. DoesnÂt smile and is rarely happy. He or she yells and may be slow to anger but when angered will chew youre head off!!! The one who never promises work or better thing to come. Simply expects work to be done and passes very few jobs as above satisfactory. Paying consistently never going wild on slurges of excess. These customers I trust. They are more like family. Less like strangers and easier to understand in a long term relationship.. Giving much room for improvement.

I like the frugal gardner who sticks with what works and slowly incorperates new Ideas. Not in such a rush to change a design that is thriving and healthy. Appreciating the longevity of old fashioned flowers.

In the real world with strangers you fear the people who are full of accolades, laughter and promises. You appreciate the people who are critical and very slow to applaud youÂre efforts. That is why I donÂt mess with Peonies. A wise person would probably never let me live down the moving a very old established peony without explicit details on why and how. God forgive me If I did any such thing with a Tree Peony. I think they can live up to five hundred years in one spot. Peonies have too many hidden formalities and personal opinions to simply toss them around.

This is the first time I ever thought what a peony means to me. Never considered how a flower can conjure up the weirdest loyalties and excuses to protect an old clump from the shovel. And I always thought of it as a gentlemanÂs flower growing up with all the men and women always reminding me thatÂs Great grandpas Peonies. Not once did anyone say these were Grandmas or some Aunt of similar age.

P.S. This has nothing to do with "I hate Peonies" original message. Just wanted to get at why I aquired the desire not to disturbe healthy flowering peonies at all costs. Eventhough I've never really worked with them much or encountered the problems mentioned on others follow-ups.

RckyM21--what a wonderful essay. Keep writing--you make my day! (And you can come help me in my garden in NC ANYTIME. I pay pretty well, AND consistently! ;~) )

melanie

I have, on occasion, moved a peony... yes, even a tree peony.

As a beginning gardener, I fell in love with peonies after rescuing one from a demolition site; but I placed it poorly, so moved it reluctantly ten years later. I spent the better part of a day hosing the soil gently away from the roots so as not to break any of them, but the peony fell into two parts when I lifted it nevertheless. I gave one of the two divisions to a neighbor and carefully replanted my own; and my care was well-rewarded when both divisions happily bloomed in their new homes the following spring.

The tree peony was lovely next to the front walkway -- too lovely! Year after year, it tempted passersby to steal the flowers; until finally, sick of the heartbreak of seeing my most beloved flowers stolen every spring, I moved it to a more sheltered corner of the garden. The following year it, too, bloomed -- and this time I was able to enjoy the flowers until the petals fell.

I don't live in that house anymore, but I hope that when I have a suitable setting for those peonies, the friend who lives there now will let me move them one last time...

Love,

Claudia

HappyDaisy, you offer sound advice in your first paragraph noting forum etiquette. (yada,yada,yada in the second?) And yet, I find myself being me in spite of it all. I cringe at some of the things I've written, carried away ya know? Wonderful! Carried away. That's what makes this site so charming. Everyone offers themselves in earnest.

Informative, comical, succinct, cynical, whatever -bring it on. Oh, and anyone who loves morning glories, or poetry in general, check out this link of Mary Oliver's work.

Forgot to mention that the first poem is entitled 'peonies'.
Peonies!

I just bought 2 new peonies. Don't know where I will put them. A semi-dble of a hot deep pink. "Grand Lady". I just went to look at the garden because we were in the general vicinty, not buy. She sells from her home. You walk around, get smitten, pick what you like and she calls you in the early fall and you go get them. She says this will be her last year, getting too much for her and her husband. They have been doing this since 1959. They also have iris, day lillies and some hostas. I would have bought more, but since I had the dh with me....
I can't imagine haing a garden without peonies.

I love peonies. Both the vulgar kinds and the tree peonies are in bloom right now in my garden and they're just gorgeous! (I can see why the Chinese have traditionally preferred them to roses.)

Peonies are the scorge of the garden..looking beautiful until the first rain when they flopped miserably....if I have to stake them or cage them they don't make it in my garden...and usually covered with ants so much that you can't cut them and bring them indoors without infestating your entire house. I had a whole row of them when I moved into my house and I couldn't wait to get rid of them. I didn't shovel prune them though, just gave them to a co-worker who has them planted at her house. They are ALL hers.

But to each their own....

Old Lady flowers ?? When that was mentioned I immediately thought of my Great Grandma and the "Lily of the Valley" perfume she used to wear...didn't all grandma's wear this ?? ;)

The next time someone attempts to murder a multitude of peonies, please call me so that I can hurry over and carry them all away to a good new home.

Peonies are not the only flower that attracts ants and ants are possibly the least offensive critter hiding in the blossom. I was in the middle of judging an arrangement of cut flowers when a large and upset Golden Orb spider came out to defend its territory. Since my nose was only 3 inches away that was where it tried to defend. Needless to say that arrangement, though lovely did not receive a ribbon.
There is a proven cure for this problem and at the same time, help cut flowers last longer and prevent drooping. Before placing in arrangements the blossom must be hardened. Submerge the entire cut stem and blossom in tepid water. Allow several hours so the blossom and leaves absorb as much water as possible. Periodically shake the cut stem to eliminate air pockets. Debris and both alive and dead insects will come to the surface where they can easily be removed. Roses, Peony and many other plants seal off cuts to the stem to prevent loss of nutrients and moisture so you should trim the end of each stem as soon as it is submerged. When you take them out of the water, shake them gently and immediately put them in a container of fresh water where you can trim and otherwise prep them for arranging. Store the prepared stems in a cool area until used.
I can pretty much guarantee you won't have an ant problem or a drooping problem. Sandy

It seems that 90% of the older floppy peonies need to be euthanized for better selections. I am a landscape architect that knows plants very well, and you would not catch me ever specifying a peony. I recently came to know some of the 'landscaper' peonies available at Hollingsworth and they have made me change my tune. They do not flop and look good with or without flowers. I still feel the old, floppy peonies belong in the dump.