To spectre: Please do not give Fran a hard time, she is alrady getting one at work and is coming here for some relief! (See post above).

To all: I note that we are running the risk of re-creating the infamous Thread-That-Was-Deleted, so if the discussion becomes too contentious, be prepared to have it disappear into the ether without warning. I would be sad to see that, because I thought it was going in a profitable direction.

To Ginger in particular: You have been a trooper throughout the creation and evolution of the forum. While I was originally a bit skeptical about the _need_ for a new forum, I must say that having this here has focused my attention on the historical aspects of garden design, and has lit a fire under me to do some reading and research, and I thank you for that.

Regarding the "garden renewal" question, I think part of the problem is that we do not all have a shared understanding of what this term means. As I recall, the tipping point in the campaign to create a new forum was when the notion of garden history was appended to the idea of restoration and renewal (one of the arguments being that a new forum would draw people with specialized expertise in garden history who would not otherwise be drawn to Landscape Design or other existing GW forums). I think I assumed that "renewal" and "restoration" were more or less synonymous, and that the connection with garden history was that both terms implied a desire to return a garden to some point in its past, or at least to use the past history of a garden as a touchstone for current work.

Ginger, if you're not too tired of the subject, I'd love it if you would explain sometime what you think of as "garden renewal" and how it differs from normal landscape design and maintenance. As you pointed out, the topic of the forum still includes "renewal of old gardens"--why not start a thread about a garden renewal project that you have worked on, and the challenges it entailed? (I have a hunch that one reason I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean is that I lack your hands-on experience confronting design issues in the field, so would like to hear more).

I think the reason that the earlier debate started to be framed as "garden renewal versus garden history" was that "garden renewal" was being used a catch-all phrase to encompass posts on any aspect of gardening whatsoever. I agree with Fran that this "gardening potpourri" approach was diluting the potential value of the forum, and seemed to overlap much more with existing GW forums (fora?). (To the extent that others seemed to enjoy this approach, I'm wondering if a "Conversations" space appended to this forum would perhaps do the trick?)

I have more to say in response to the earlier (promising) direction of this thread, but must now retire in order to face another day of work in the a.m. Landscape professionals are not the only ones for whom spring is a busy season, I'm afraid. Will post more tomorrow or on the weekend.

Kate

Thank you for your thoughtful post, Kate. To answer your questions in part: I have attempted to define "renewal, restoration, redesign" on several occasions. I have also asked Spike for a Conversations gallery. He has told me "Not yet" on the Conversations and that he had already defined the forum as per the sentence at the top of the intro page. A couple of my posts containing definition attempts were quickly deleted.

I think you can see how people responded to INK's questions re preserving his client's garden while the house underwent construction. There are many questions on this forum and other concerning "redesign." It is an interesting area of gardening and garden design as you must work with what is already there, rather than a clean slate. Dealing with old plant material and garden structures, others'garden designs, decisions on what to keep and what to let go, to honor the past gardener's work or not, and so on. It is often easier to design rather than redesign a garden or landscape. And of course history is always present. Hence the connection between history and renewal.

In a way, we are always dealing with history when we redesign a garden, even if it the recent history of a new, 5 year old home's second owner attempting to remake a garden or landscape to his or her likes. I view it, really, as theory and practice. The history provides the intellectual understanding of the garden(theory) and the redesign is the hands on, work piece(practice). Can't have one without the other if you want a dynamism. Having a forum dedicated to the hx piece only seems flat to me. And I think most GWebbers are hands-on gardeners, too, not theorticians only. So a combination would be most appealing to the greatest number of posters and lurkers.

To my way of thinking, it is a good combination. I am always happy to see posts that are not entirely theoretical/history oriented. E.g., I am very interested in Jo's post of her garden plan as she has asked many questions here and is now at the point of putting her knowledge to work.

It is not that there are not other places to discuss garden redesign on the GW; it is that here we have a chance to ponder and view redesign thru the lens of history. That doesn't often happen on the other forums.

Helpful or not?

Ginger

As to what colot I painted my bathroom:
{{gwi:1187037}}

It's a series of blue glazes over Wythe blue (Benjamin Moore)base layer. It's actually a little more blue-green than it shows up here. I was going for a "sand and sea" efect...because I didn't want to deal with the tile. This is the "basement Boy bathroomand willl be thoroughly abused.

melanie

INK--Got your message and I agree with you about Versailles and Vaux.

Ginger: most helpful, indeed, thanks for your detailed reply and info on all points. I agree very much that practice is as important as the theory, so would certainly like to see both represented here.

I particularly liked this from your post: "It is not that there are not other places to discuss garden redesign on the GW; it is that here we have a chance to ponder and view redesign thru the lens of history." "Through the lens of history" -- to me, that is in fact the potential attraction of this forum. I would suggest that it is also the standard by which we might evaluate what type of posts are germane to the forum topic. "History" does not have to be Garden History writ large; it can indeed be the history of a particular garden, and I imagine that posts on these topics may be among the more interesting in that they will include information not easily found in books. Then again, not everyone who goes about "renewing" their garden does so with an eye or an interest in its history at all. "I want to plant a tall privacy hedge to screen out my annoying neighbor's junk pile" is a different post in this regard from "I want to plant a tall privacy hedge to screen out my annoying neighbor's junk pile but would like to do so in a way that complements the original design, etc."

Some people will probably be more drawn to this type of 'renewal' thread and others will be more drawn to the historic restoration type of threads, but I think the two can peacefully, and productively, co-exist as long as history in some form remains the touchstone.

Kate

Some famous psychology bloke once said that education or learning was more to do with the questions asked than the answers posited. There does seem to be a group of people over here who are not quite so concerned about providing definitive answers but rather the continuing discovery. I can work with that.

the process more valuable than the product

I've enjoyed reading others' posts and participating on this forum. I've received advice, book recommendations, shared links to websites of interest (or not), and learned quite a lot, I think, in a short time.
I've participated less more recently, since the forum has taken a turn away from more general garden renewal to focus on garden history. I don't consider myself a history buff, and am not knowledgeable enough to contribute much on the subject, though I do enjoy learning of any kind. Where my garden is concerned, I'm more interested in making it harmonize with my antique home, while functioning well, and being a pleasant refuge for my family and friends.
It may be because of my duplicate post (had trouble with the first one because of the size of the image) but there hasn't really been much interest in my recent post about my garden redesign project. I was hoping to get more feedback and suggestions.
Disappointing, because there aren't many other places to share ideas and have my excitement about the project understood, even if it's not an accurate historical restoration.
Oh, well.
Jo

JO! We CAN do both! I'm going to be on periodically with updates about the great Wall of Chapel Hill--PLEASE check in! And Iwant to hear more about YOUR amazing attempts...

melanie

Jo-
Haven't you been given time and attention here over the months? It seems to me that you have . . . And now you have come to decisions on your landscape design and have shown us the results. I answered your request for feedback with several questions and comments, as did 2 others. You have also asked for ideas re plant choices; I recall giving you the names of quite a few shrubs that would fit your site, zone, and general era of your home some time ago; others did as well, I think.

You could start a separate thread asking specific questions about your design to get input. Any particular thing about which you are looking for feedback? I guess I felt you had pretty well come to the fruition of the redesign portion; I was looking forward to your posts on the choice of plants, installation, soil issues, etc.

I am interested, as you know, in keeping the practical redesign/renovate part of the forum going. A poster from NY has just asked questions about renovating her compacted soil. She has received replies from me and from Melanie only. Why not go ahead and put your ideas forth when others post about matters not pertaining to hx but to general rejuvenatin/renewal in the garden?? That is how we will keep this part of the forum alive and well.

Ginger

Jo-
I see you have posted on another thread about a hedge replacement. Great--you haven't fled the ship!
Ginger

Ginger, I hope I didn't sound (read?) as if I was whining? I have enjoyed participating on this forum, and will continue to learn from others, and contribute whenever I feel I can.

Nothing really specific I was looking for on my design post. Maybe I'm feeling stressed with all the decisions to be made about details. Had a tough time choosing trees for my little allee...love Cornus florida, hate anthracnose and borers; love crabapple, hate cedar-apple rust and scab; many trees too large for my relatively small area; finally settled (almost) on Cornus kousa, tho if they reach the upper limits of size ranges given in some sources, I may end up with pleached trees!

The hardscape guy (lives next door) came by this morning to look at my patio alterations. The good news: he's buying a new sod-stripper on Monday and is offering to run over and remove the sod for me where I want to start planting, particulary important where I want to establish the new mixed and perennial borders, as I have many plants that are in desperate need of division in the existing border.

The bad news: he doesn't like my patio alteration plan, and is suggesting a designer he has worked with in the past and whom he says will give me top-notch guidance. Trouble is I've already spent money on the sketches for the current design, ordered a lot of plants, as well as the shed, laid out the lines for the new beds, and started digging the new beds and adding compost. He thinks my patio plan is a mistake, and is urging me to get another viewpoint.

Especially maddening is that he likes the idea I first came up with on my own to build a new patio right outside the back door instead of adding onto the existing patio on the west side.

I've made a call to the designer he's recommending, but won't hear from her till Monday at the earliest, and my husband is probably going to kill me when I tell him I want to rethink some parts of the plan. And pay more money to do it. So in the meantime, everything screeches to a halt while I take time to catch my breath and try to be patient, a quality I'm not known for.

I suppose it'll all work out in the end.
Jo

Hi Jo: I know (from experience) what you mean about getting stressed out from all of the decisions involved in a major landscape project. Do bear in mind that this has been a week and weekend of religious/family holidays for many, and that a number of us here (not even in the same occupation) seem to have experienced a spring-induced surge of work lately. So I wouldn't read too much into having only heard from a few people over the course of a few days. I'll post some other thoughts on your thread itself. Kate

P.S. to Jo--Oh yes, and it is the weekend before tax day for those of us here in the States, which I just realized I must attend to before posting comments on your other thread. :( Kate

Procrastinator!!!
I've already received my refund! See, I told you I was the impatient sort.:o)
Jo

I like visiting this forum and adding to it the rare times I actually have something to say... but I haven't been here much lately for two reasons:

(1) The weather's been fine, and I've been "walking the walk" instead of "talking the talk". I.e., I've been pulling weeds, making compost, digging out virus-infected bulbs, making new beds, chopping wood and carrying water...

(2) Well, really, #1 is the reason I haven't been here as much. But when I do come here, I often feel that I don't have much to contribute to the discussion because although I'm renovating a garden that is 75-100 years old, it's a small garden by the standards of the folks here, I'm doing it all myself (because I don't have the money to hire a professional), and it was a -- dare I say it? -- a "cottage garden" (that is, a personal garden originally stocked with fruit and nut trees, grapevines, and whatever ornamental plants the ordinary person could easily obtain in those days, including lovely but common wildflowers and easily-divided or seed-grown perennials).

My own taste in plants is fairly exotic compared to what I found still growing here after years of neglect -- but I do love some of the original gardener's long-lived selections: Dicentra formosa v. oregona, Arum italicum, Sweet Violets, and Bluebells (those unfortunate plants are infected with tulip fire virus that doesn't mar their own appearance, but requires all the swaths of this year's BLOOMING plants to be removed for the sake of my lilies' continued health -- it's a heartbreaking chore).

I love some of the mature trees here, too, particularly the large Japanese Maple at the side of the shady "courtyard" area. It's welcoming, elegant, and serene all at once.

So I'm not really renovating the garden so much as I'm trying to design a new garden around the existing plantings. I'm not really restoring the garden, either -- since I suspect that when I'm done, there will be many more garden rooms here than there ever were in its former heyday, and there will exist far more variety in the plantings than the earlier gardeners could ever afford or obtain.

But I'm not a professional landscape designer, and I'm not a garden historian, and I don't think the words "cottage garden" are obscenities. (Most gardens before the age of television were cottage gardens, after all, planted by common folk for the purpose of providing both flowers and food, back in the days when people worked in the yard for fresh produce and entertainment, instead of merely working a nicely-rounded derriere-dent into the sofa.)

I feel sad to be so blunt... but I guess I don't write much here because I often feel that there are more than one or two really high-falutin' nose-in-air snobs on the forum who wouldn't appreciate anything I have to say. (And who probably won't appreciate this post, either.)

As for butter-won't-melt-in-their-mouths English garden writers... one of my favorite garden journals is Gertrude Jeckyll's "Wood and Garden", while one of my least favorite garden writers is Rosemary Verey. I like Gertrude (who was a genuine silver-spoon aristocrat), because she wrote in frank, unfettered language; whereas Rosemary has distinct prejudices and biases about everything in the garden, and no doubt outside of it as well.

I like knowledgeable people who are frank and unprejudiced. I like hearing about new ideas, and new approaches to old ideas. I like being able to come here to this forum for unbiased advice.

However, I haven't felt comfortable asking for advice here on renovating my 75-100 year old farmer's yard/cottage garden. I'm sure you all know why.

Spectre, I'll be frank with you: it's unfortunate that you've embarked on a one-man crusade against cottage-gardens -- gardens where food and flowers are grown together -- using this forum as your soapbox. It's a poor use of this forum not only because your preconception of what a cottage garden is has nothing to do with the real cottage gardens I've seen everywhere, but also because cottage gardens have existed since the very beginning of agriculture, and in far greater numbers than the ostentatious, merely ornamental gardens of the wealthy. Cottage gardens ARE garden history; and many of them (like my own) are in need of thoughtful, creative renovation, too.

Your biases are completely inappropriate here. Cottage gardens need not be cliched masses of hollyhocks and petunias and lavender. There can be folksy cottage gardens, yes; but there can also be elegant cottage gardens, woodland cottage gardens, exotic cottage gardens, and weird cottage gardens... in fact, for every kind of garden you can think of, there can be a cottage garden counterpart. All that's required is a limited amount of growing space, and the gardener's desire to grow a few food plants in addition to ornamentals.

Cottage gardens are only cliche' if you make them so. It isn't, after all, REQUIRED to plant Hollyhocks in a cottage garden; nor foxgloves, nor pansies, nor petunias. And most people who have cottage gardens didn't set out to make one, and don't even realize that's what they have. They just wanted flowers, and they wanted fresh fruit or veggies... and they couldn't completely separate the one from the other, so they worked them all into the plan together.

My own "cottage garden" will have Roscoea cautleoides growing en masse under the Japanese Maple, black bamboo and tall timber bamboo, at least five different species of hardy orchids, Dierama pulcherrimum (white form), Brugmansias and Watsonias and Passionflowers and NO Hollyhocks (unless I can get that stunning scarlet-red to breed true) and NO foxgloves and NO pansies (except for the sweet violets that are everywhere anyway, and some Johnny-Jump-Ups just because they're so cheerful and enterprising).

When I'm done renovating/renewing/redesigning this place, I'll have woodland areas and small wetlands, sunny expanses and shady retreats... and a white-themed bed around a marble statue of Mary (good Catholic that I am, that's a must, don't you think?).

But among it all, I'll also have herb gardens and vegetable gardens, fruit trees and grape vines and berry bushes. So no matter how high-falutin' I want to be about it... it's still going to be a "cottage garden", where flowers grow with food. Period.

It's not about annuals or perennials or shrubs -- a cottage garden is where common folk crowd together both ornamentals and food plants, because they don't have a grand estate that allows them to grow their food on an unseen part of the property.

And if you have fruiting bananas... or fruiting passionflowers... or grapes or herbs or salad greens or tomatoes or any of those wonderful things growing in your garden in plain sight...

Then, Spectre, you have a "cottage garden" too, Bird of Paradise and all!

Love,

Claudia

Claudia:
Beautifully spoken. I'd love to see your garden when it's done.

I like cottage gardens and LOVE hollyhocks. Not a thing wrong with either one. Last summer, at the St. Gaudens estate in NH, a National Park Service site now, the hollyhocks were breathtaking at the sculptor's studio. I couldn't take enough photos.

There are a thousand and one types of gardens and interpretations of beauty. How can we say any one type is "wrong"? De gustibus non disputandum.

Hi everyone!

John, thanks for your kind words.

My "garden" (and I use the term loosely) is only 1/3 of an acre, but I'm doing it all myself, so it will be a while before it's worth showing to others. (My DH has no interest in anything but mowing the lawn and rototilling the veggie gardens, for which I am deeply grateful to him.)

The property was L-O-N-G neglected, which as you know, in this area means it was completely overrun with blackberries and English ivy. We've been here since April 2002, and I started removing the old stumps, brambles, and weed trees the first year -- but then I became ill midway through June and had to have surgery to fix the problem in August, so the rest of 2002 was a total washout from mid-June onwards. I made great progress last year, though, and I only have 700-800 square feet of brambles and ivy left to remove.

In the meantime, I'm putting in beds here and there, as the inspiration takes me. The stump removals left big holes, so I figured I might as well amend the soil and plant some flowers as I filled in the holes.

I'm working through the yard area by area, chasing down the ubiquitous annual weeds until they've almost disappeared, vigilantly removing the perennial weeds from each area before moving onto the next...

Sounds exciting, doesn't it? ;-)

The sorrowful task of removing blooming Bluebells has kept me busy this week. It's very sad, even though I know they'll return from their seedlings eventually, and hopefully will stay virus-free if I'm watchful. (I'm planning to buy some red tulips to plant among the returning Bluebells, not because the colors go well together -- they don't -- but because red tulips show the effects of virus more clearly than any other flower. So if I haven't eradicated it, I'll know.)

Now the holes left where there used to be masses of Bluebells need filling, and thanks to my FIL's gift of a chipper/shredder last year, I have lots of compost to amend new flower beds. I started under the Japanese Maple yesterday, in between rain showers; and thanks to careful hand-weeding of Nature's bounty, I should have plenty of wild Bleeding Heart seedlings to transplant there while I'm waiting for my Roscoeas to multiply. (I *almost* have enough of them for the mass-planting mentioned above... just one more season from now.)

I bought a Dactylorhiza seedling at the Hardy Plant Society sale last weekend, so I'm eager to make a "wetland" area to encourage it and the Platantheras to mature. I went a little crazy with the Bletillas and Pleiones, too, so I'll also have to make a woodland bed for them this year. I can't WAIT to see all my showy hardy orchids in bloom!

This garden will be slow in maturing, though, because my limited funds require me to grow as much as I can from seed and seedlings -- including Laurel hedges, ground covers, and whatever else springs forth from the good earth. In this respect, it really will be a true cottage garden -- a garden that incorporates as much home-grown and neighbor-shared material as possible, with lots of well-grown "common" plants providing a setting for the few rare and exotic treasures.

The existing Laurels have been very generous with me, and I now have nearly two dozen baby Laurels large enough for planting along the fence... and many more Laurel seedlings to fill in any gaps that show as the hedge grows.

I am a strong proponent of well-grown, pruned-not-sheared Laurel hedges. Before we moved here, I didn't know that Laurel COULD be anything except hideous; but now that I've seen their natural form and smelled their lovely flowers, I want MORE!!! So my Laurel hedge will be pruned-not-sheared "flat" against the fence, and over time they'll grow into interlocking fan shapes that will be thickly covered with privacy-ensuring foliage.

Do you suspect it will be some time before my garden is ready to show?

I'm patient with nothing else BUT plants. And yes, it will be at least two or three years before the garden even begins to hint at the beauty to come, and at least ten years before it will start to look anything like my vision for it.

But when it does start to look like a garden, John, you're at the top of my list of people to invite over!

Ginny, I like Hollyhocks, too, but I don't like rust, and I've yet to find a Hollyhock that doesn't get spotty at some point in the season. However, if the flower color is really extraordinary -- as it was in the flame-red Hollyhock I grew last year -- I *may* tolerate the rust for the sake of the flowers.

I love Foxgloves, too, but I have one weakness that makes it difficult for me to continue to grow them: I cannot help hand-weeding, leaving all the known flower seedlings and removing only the dandelions, thistles, and burdock... but my Foxgloves leave a literal carpet of seedlings!

Last year I grew one -- and only one -- Foxglove, a self-sown one that made a rosette too pretty to pull. That Foxglove eventually grew to over ten feet tall... bloomed all summer long with additional side branches... provided me with several OUNCES of tiny collected seeds... and STILL left at least 25 square feet of seedling-carpet in my front garden.

You must understand -- when it comes to growing and propagating plants, I have the most severe case of obsessive-compulsive disorder of anyone I've ever known. I *cannot* see a seed pod without harvesting it; I *cannot* grub out seedlings of known flower (or unknown) plants regardless of where they come up unless and until I'm certain they're weeds; and, once sown and sprouted, I cannot abandon any flower seedling, but *must* do my best to grow it on to blooming adulthood; and then, of course, I *must* divide it when it becomes too large for its pot or spot.

Consequently, I have literally dozens of pots of Campanulas, Heliopsis (how much Heliopsis does one really need?), Coreopsis, Candy Lily, Achilleas, Buddleias, Crocosmias, you name it!

Any person in their right mind would have long ago dumped the extras on the compost heap -- but when it comes to growing and propagating plants, I'm definitely a few cards short of a deck. I can't *bear* the thought of dumping ANY of my precious babies, no matter how prolific they may be.

So what, I ask you, can I do with a plant that leaves literally tens of thousands of healthy, vigorous seedlings?

The problem with Foxglove is NOT that I don't love it -- I do. The problem with Foxglove is that it loves me back much too affectionately.

Given my extreme difficulty with removing any garden-worthy plant, then, I really only have two choices: either allow the Foxglove to overrun every area of my garden; or simply declare it a weed, which will then allow me to remove most of it without any pang of conscience. (But you know, there are always a few weed escapees in even the most well-tended garden. ;-)

Love,

Claudia

Claudia:
Thanks. I'm looking forward to it.

Instead of planting cherry laurels, have you considered planting Mediterranean laurel (Bay Tree; Laurus nobilis)? It does surprisingly well in my rather damp maritime northwest WA garden and gives me lots of leaves to cook with (which makes pruning easy).

In any case, you're project sounds delightful. Best of gardener's luck!

Hi again, John!

The problem with planting anything that isn't already growing in my yard is simple: lack of funds. For extensive plantings of one kind of thing, this problem is particularly pressing. I simply do not have the funds to purchase a few dozen of anything (except hardy Fuchsia starts, which I buy three-of-a-kind at Flower World in Woodinville and propagate into dozens).

So buying a dozen shrubs is out of the question; but since my yard already provides me with dozens of cherry Laurel seedlings every year, I might as well use them for the hedge I need. And they do grow fast, especially in my soil. They also grow tall when encouraged to do so. (My favorite here, of which I've written often, is a fifteen-foot-tall fan-shaped Laurel that's blooming with sweet-smelling flowers even as I write this.)

I may, in fact, have a Laurus nobilis or two on the property. There are two small shrubs growing along what used to be a fenceline (from an ugly chain-link fence that divided the front and back halves of the property -- God only knows why -- it was one of the first things to go!). The shrubs have narrow, glossy leaves that are evergreen and sharply fragrant, with an odor like a Eucalyptus almost -- strangely stimulating to inhale.

However, if they are indeed Bay Laurel, the leaves I've always used in cooking have been horribly stale!

Unfortunately, these two shrubs are clearly not happy in the shade cast by the hazelnut trees and the Liriodendron, and they're just large enough that they'll be awkward to move. I like them, though, so I'll move them to sunshine eventually.

Also unfortunately, they don't leave seedlings. That might change when they get enough sun to bloom well; but as slowly as they grow, they're not good candidates for a hedge.

If you're ever in Portland and you're interested in seeing a garden-in-the-works, drop me an email. I'd love to hear the opinions of a knowledgeable visitor while the work is in progress.

What part of WA are you in, may I ask? I grew up in Seattle, you see, and I still have family and friends all over the Puget Sound area.

Love,

Claudia

The hollyhocks in Cornish NH had no rust--I was surprised. I don't grow them because they always got rust in my garden. My guess is that the cool, relatively dry mountain summers kept the rust down.

Fairhaven (south Bellingham). My bay trees always set seed (and they're about to bloom), but they are in a [mostly] sunny location. They don't seem to mind wet feet however.

I'll take you up on your offer next time I pass through town.

Hello All:

To the inevitable consternation of a few, I feel the need to address a few of the comments directed at me earlier in this thread. It's glaringly obvious to lurkers and contributors that I have strong negative opinions about cottage gardens. It's been a running gag that Cady, Ginger and others tease me endlessly about my dislike for these types of gardens.

Claudia, if you think that I've been hard on CG's here, you haven't read my posts on "Tropicals", especially when someone (also teasing) posts a picture of roses, daisies, hollyhocks or something of the like. I apologize if my opinions have kept you from posting...that's not my intention at all. If you "don't write much here because I often feel that there are more than one or two really high-falutin' nose-in-air snobs on the forum who wouldn't appreciate anything I have to say" and can say that only half of that is true. While I agree that I'm a "high-falutin" plant snob (perhaps without the nose in the air), I do appreciate and enjoy reading most things people (including you) have to say.

I'm toning down the comments about CG's except when goaded by mischievious people like Cady and Melanie because I realize now that many didn't get the tongue-in-cheek nature of my posts and for that I apologize. However, as Ginny says above, there are "a thousand and one types of gardens and interpretations of beauty" and there is nothing anyone can do to change my opinion of the cottage gardens that are prevalent in magazines, TV, etc. In the tropical gardens I'm partial to, I favor foliage over flower and texture over color. Many people find the wall-to-wall green of a Florida or Hawaiian landscape boring and wish there were more wildflowers, pastels, etc. Though I strongly disagree with that, that opinion is fine too. However, don't begrudge me my feelings of cottage gardens because they don't agree with yours. I am only one of dozens of posters here and I am probably the only one who has that opinion, Claudia. There are others who, as it has already been demonstrated, will be glad to give you the unbiased advice you're looking for.

Perhaps it's an problem with definitions. If a cottage garden simply means that you have edibles and ornamentals growing in the same garden, then by that definition, I reluctantly admit to having one. I have mangoes, guavas, bananas, papayas, starfruit, and citrus growing in and around my ornamentals. My idea and impression of a cottage garden is summarized in the following text from Theme Gardens published in 2003 by Sunset Publishing:
A cottage garden foams with old-fashioned flowers such as sweet peas, hollyhocks, foxgloves, and daisies. They all seem to have sprung up naturally, seeding themselves joyously through the flowerbedand sometimes out into the path. Not one of them is prim; they lean casually, or they flop tousled through one antother in a vibrant mingling. Frangrance is part of the cottage garden romance, especially the fragrance of old roses. ©2003 Sunset PublishingThey do mention that early authentic cottage gardens were practical plots of veggies, herbs, and fruits. However, the description above encapsulates my idea of the cottage garden. I'm sorry again if my feelings disappoint you, but I absolutely dislike these types of gardens.

Thanks for Reading,
spectre

P.S.: The foliage plants I buy in the indoor plant section at Home Cheapot for 99c are anything but "high-falutin."

You can't trust Sunset. They often get stuff wrong.

John:

So who do you suggest I believe for a cottage garden definition? Sunset has called me three times to verify information for a blurb they're doing on my garden, so they must do some fact-checking. Do you have specific examples that you can cite? I'm weary of discussing it, and as I said before, will limit my comments on CG's in this forum. You know how I feel about them and I'm not taking the bait.

spectre

Spectre, you really ought to know better than to take Sunset seriously. Sure, their plant encyclopedia was my baby-gardener alphabet primer; and they do publish a lot of very useful do-it-yourself manuals...

But never, ever forget that these are the same people who invented some 24 different gardening zones... and STILL have Portland in the same zone as most of the Willamette valley! They are a very authoritative fount of misinformation.

The "cottage garden" as described above is a "Gertrude Jeckyll-style English garden". The cottage garden you describe as your own is an authentic modern "tropical-paradise" cottage garden, complete with Mango trees (I'm green with envy), volcanic waterfalls, and Balinese statuary.

And you know what? I'm surprisingly delighted to hear that you grow food as well as pretties. There's something magical about pretty gardens well-stocked with edible delights, and I'd worry terribly about your sanity if you'd foregone that pleasure simply to avoid having an authentic "cottage garden".

Love,

Claudia

"They do mention that early authentic cottage gardens were practical plots of veggies, herbs, and fruits."

Therein is Sunset's admission that they were attempting to redefine a term of long standing.

Love,

Claudia

The problem with Sunset is that their staffers aren't very smart -- and, yes, I have met several of them over the years. Neither the mag and the books were ever great, though they filled a rather vulgar niche, but they have really gone to he11 since they were sold by the Lane family and lumped with Southern Living.

Since there is no historical reference for "cottage garden" as being a real thing and is more likely a fanciful or romantic invention connected with nostalgia and a pastoral ideal, whatever you call a cottage garden has as much crediblity as what I call it.

And isn't that as it should be?

If that is so then it makes no sense to argue about what it is or is not nor about authenticity.

Cottage gardens are simply gardens of the people. They contain little artifice. They are real. They are made with love and utility in mind. I like cottage gardens very much.

The ersatz prettified cottage garden may be what spectre has often referred to. "A romantic billowing mix of signature hollyhocks and trembling roses, dainty columbines mingle with stately foxgloves. . . blah, blah, blah" (I would love to read a description of that sort of cottage garden by Annie Proux).

Claudia has a real garden filled with what she likes, with what has meaning to her, with sentimental and emotional value, with what she feels is lovely, with what is functional(vegetables!), with what she can afford. I doubt my friend spectre dislikes or pans this sort of garden.

Ginger

Claudia--I also suffer from an inability to edit healthy seedlings--though I am working on getting over it. I've been pretty ruthless with the phlox this spring--and am trying to remain ruthless when it comes to the cleome...but they are SO pretty when they bloom! AM out of town (on DH'S laptop) or I'd include a pic of my thug phlox and over the top cleome from summers past. I once bought some peruvian daffodils--bizarre creatures--though interesting intheir own weird way. I FINALLY dug them out last fall--and composted them. They didn't bloom last summer--and were taking up WAY too much space. Perhaps we should start a supprt group...."plant horders annonymous?"

melanie

Thanks for the support, everybody!

Spectre, I know you didn't realize how you were coming across. One of the hardest things to learn in any virtual community is that humor doesn't come through in email or posts -- hostility is read as hostility, and the accompanying grin isn't seen even if one appends a smiley face.

I can understand your contempt for the pretentiously haphazard artifice of a "cottage garden" that's made in imitation of some popular ideal. That kind of landscape is to real cottage gardens as top-forty hits are to music... a fad, plain and simple, that has nothing to do with the landscapes carefully and creatively constructed by truly inspired gardeners.

(When Gertrude Jeckyll first made her garden, it was revolutionary. She might very well be turning over in her grave now to see her style so widely imitated in such a mediocre fashion.)

Love,

Claudia

Hello Claudia:

The fault lies with me, as the communicator, to make myself understood completely. I can't expect everybody (but posters who have been on line and have seen my posts for months) to realize that 95% of the hostility you read from me is very tongue-in-cheek, with a real opinion behind it. If the message isn't received, the communications failure usually lies with the sender.

Thank you for clarifying the mistaken idea I had of what a cottage garden truly is...now I have to come up with a true appelation for the "Top 40", flowery, BH&G, Rebecca Kolls', fru-fru gardens that you refer to that I detest so much!

spectre

You could call them "Doily" gardens, because they're like the crocheted doilies you see littering all the furniture in an elderly person's home -- lacy, floppy, old-fashioned, pastel, and all-too-overused!

;-D Love,

Claudia

I like that. The Shelburne Inn in Seaview, WA, is a great example of a "doily garden.

INKognito-You would recognize my username.Always thinking about Japanese Styled Gardens.I never knew so much existed on gardening.Always thought what I learned on my own was enough.I was wrong.People are so dedicated on the subjects that I feel ready to learn agian.

I've only worked for a few people.They taught me what I know.Customers who had people like youreselves on this forum do work for thier parents in the 20's or 30's.Those few people passed away after a year or so from the time I met them.One lady a niegbor down the street asked me to come closer.Inspecting my teeth.She was in her 80's or more.Ms. T I'll call her today.Too make along story short she spent many hours having me move boxes all day.Showed me photos of her childhood and said simply.You have white teeth.Were going to restore the Gardens.She fell ill within a month.But she taught me about the Ginko tree by the carraige house was planted by her mother if I"m correct.To remind her of the Ginko only 100 yards away that belonged to the main home.She brought a story for each tree and its original purpose for design. How diseases killed of many and were replaced with substitutes.I went to the county records at the same time to do reserch on the sale records.Took weeks.We never gardened much and when she passed within that year the son had me just keep the place clean.I left when the now new owners arrived never asking about her once.

This was the first time I experienced Loyalties to the High Society Women who gave traditional principles of garden design a place with the life styles long gone.Old money.

I knew some names she mentioned that my great grandfather gardened for as she talked.Or people somehow connected.Met the children of women who came to her home to do public deeds over a cup of tea.I said nothing because these people have many skeletons in the closet.Best to stay silent and learn.I was thier for her to remember the glory of gardening clubs and frienships.Reserch is great.Find a person whose familly built the gardens as youre friend is rare.We were friends for the shortest period

The Ginko came off of the shipment from china.The one before more came for the Centrall Park plantings.The granite well is the only remnant of a formal garden.The chestnuts were of greek origen to replace the native.The granite came from the same quarry that recently just closed.The Designer was F. L. Omsted.The main house was Goergain but her father like the Mansard roof of Versailles so he removed one story and nobody noes the better today. The local historical center had all the visuals correct but none of the experiences.
The Linden was brought from Germany.One of the first from a half dozen brought to the country.But thats on the otherside and not hers.She taught me alot.
The best restorer of a garden must be one who gets to live,eat and sleep with such a woman on many occasions to gain thier trust.This makes for the best garden restorationTo find experienced cheap labor whose willing to spend fifteen yaers at least to do so is even more rare.In the end that mans child goes to the same as Mrs T did and somehow everythings balanced.People of wealth from old money keep alive the memories that new money cannot always buy.Just a simple hello by a person like her would be a feather in the cap for a man of new money.Many immigrants worked for such influencial people and became highly skilled and took to thier graves those experiences out of Loyalty to the person who taught them aesthetics and taste.If I were studying garden reconstruction and history I'd interview all the living men who built them.Find the old guild halls and look up thier names.Interview them and they might guide you to a familly member whose never talked.These elderly immigrants dont trust intitutions,professers and such becuase for those intellectuals to teach and publish books one must rob the experiences of many.Many authors do the same to proffesers getting the stories all mixed up without cross referncing back to the original source.Definately dont trust the costs analyses.I've heard one that made me laugh.My familly built the pillers of one home and the facts seemed a little blurry.This goes back only fifteen years.Maybe they built them to cheap.Alwats go to the original source.Everything gets inflated for the next person to eat off.Including the history.

The new owner of Mrs T carriage property bulldozed most everything.The Aesculus hippocastanum alee was too messy and so on down the list.The granite pillars without her eagle eye were damaged from carelesness.

I'm going to read tomarrow "Discovering the Vernacular Landscape" by John Brickerhoff Jackson.Seems like everyone reads here.Have any suggestions on another book pertaining to this Forum.Sorry for disrupting the thread.

...for your delightful and insightful contribution to this forum. There is a thread here about the first steps of restoring a garden -- I'll cut-n-paste your post there, because it's a perfect contribution to that discussion.

Thank you again for your own memories, as well as for the long-ago contribution of Mrs. T.

Love,

Claudia

Big oops!! Please attach one big correction!!! I did not mean to "sleep with" as in a companion. I meant being invited to stay at the home of. Being given a room to sleep for the next days dicussion. No more.

The sentence was, "The best restorer of a garden must be one who gets to live,eat and sleep with such a women on many occasions to gain thier trust."

I read all night and had no sleep. Sorry.

Thank you Claudia.

A quote from the book I will start reading:

" We have yet to learn that we can no longer aspire to permanence in our communities, but merely to thier continuity. We cling to old buildings and old urban forms even when they have no artistic or religious or political significance. The restoration of nondesript old houses or residential nieghborhoods is pleasant enough in prosperous communities with a history of thier own, but is this the way of providing continuity for communities which are poor or too new to have history? Whatever we like to think, in hard times (Which eventually come to every community no matter what its size or wealth) what makes survival possible and desirable is not its archeological identity but its ability to continue, and it continues because some structures, some institutions and facilities provide continuity. These are the landmarks."

Now whats next?

I used a little psychologizing in my rememberences of Mrs T. Trying to recreate a feeling that High Society educates the average person. I don't want or desire to take on the burdens they have financialy or personally. To each thier own. Thank god I live in a small cottage of wood. Idealists could pass laws pertaining to cottage communties to rebuild in solid granite blocks. If this happened I would not have the freedom to pusue a dream away from home and be practical.

Lets not psychoanalize forum members unless they spacifically ask to be.If you have nothing good to say do not say anything. Count to 15 seconds before typing and think before you act. Anyone who plays will have to pay eventually so tongue in cheek comments can be innapropiate for such a forum as this thread where an academic approach has been issued by many. Unlike chinese characters our english language can be a little too limited with so many readers to disguise its meaning. Sure a laugh or how well youre doing on a project of youre own will break up the monotony of research and analyzing how laymen,architects,designers,benefactors etc can help the average person complete thier garden renovation.

A lot of questions have been proposed by INKognito and Ginger NH. I like the mentoring approach of the first few posts. I have never really been online so I'm very happy to find so many teachers. A teacher is simply anyone who has gone down the same road before you. Even if that person started three steps before me and I didnt like that person, when in doubt I'll follow his footsteps and take what I can learn.

This is a totally new Idea for me, letting go of the ego.

A forum like this should have the utmost respect of contributing members who are dedicated to Garden Restoration and like any book with that title thier is a list of contents.

Lets establish a start date and end date as for any physical Garden Restoration and try to find answers to one question at a time without tangents. Anyone who argues will be left in the dust.

Whats next.....Start marching, I want to learn :)

Can you tell us who you are, RckyM21. There is little on your member page. A mystery . . .

I have been reading your posts with much interest--the first was transporting--to a different time and place. I like your above forum guidelines as well. This is an extremely busy time of year for me--can't post much but will be reading and chiming in from time to time. Welcome.
Ginger

Checking in--didn't mean to be intrusive, RckyM21. Just meant "who are you" in terms of the garden: are you working in the horticultural world in any capacity currently? Do you have a garden of your own? What garden types/styles and plants do you favor?
G.

Ginger, be gentle. The poor person has been registered a mere ten days! Ricky, we are a nosy, but loving! bunch. Fear not, and welcome to the group. Have enjoyed all your posts.

melanie/SO tired--but the BIG wall is almost finished...

Hello Ginger:

No I do not have a garden of my own
As of yet my attitude is without a firm Identity to nurture a strong character and goal orientated qualities. Im still in the self exploratory stages of development. During an earlier age this was hindered and now Im accepting changes.. A garden would then be shallow of the emotional and soulful qualities that are magnified by ones certainty of Identity giving a strong place in society.. In order to fulfill the need of artistic expression, Im still in the backwards stage. Finding the human experience in stones and inanimate objects and places. Along with how the senses are able to mimic these experiences in order to trigger the remembrances of acquired memories from loved ones, friends and the fears of future events. Without a formal education in garden design and styles or landscape architecture Im using my own experiences to fuel an imaginative mind.
Gardening at home will come with time. As of now Im finding that the Japanese garden style has a well codified tradition of accounting the human experiences starting with Shinto. For this reason Im here on the Garden web to find a profession that will balance my Identity . To accept the teachings of an established group of professional tradesmen has been my failure and Im working on why this is so.

-Note- Japanese garden forum is my place for self analyzing. I dont feel this is appropriate for Garden Restoration since Im not restoring any garden of my own and wish to learn the academic approach of others. I will keep my thoughts to myself after this introduction and share observations that relate to this threads topics

INKognito has the ability to make me want answers with originality. He is persistently gentle and rephrases a thread into new forms always keeping core principles alive. Answers that I would otherwise grasp for with babbling or going into tangents are now gathering some resemblance of logic. Many can quote books or try to rehash already proven theories into their own words but Im guessing hes looking for originality of thought and how to apply this with real life situations with paying customers and people of personal dedication towards idealized landscapes and our role within.

Edzerd, Mike Y, Peace love,Agnes Wa ,karma37 popny and many more are molding my dreams into a focus. Sometimes you need to listen to the collective advice from strangers before your wise enough to figure the answers on youre own.. Many people here are volunteering their time as masters of their trade,art,business etc to help bring the answers we seek while their peers are too busy to be with us.

In this respect I express the great full appreciation for those willing to be teachers on a public forum.

I favor all styles of gardens but absolutely reject the notion that garden design comes first.. I am inclined to profess how I would use the natural or urban environment given, to choose architectural style and materials of the home as the most practical method. After this I would try and figure how the perceived boundaries both natural and political effect a gardens inner ratios and flow. I love clean lines and open views. I love the secrecy of a small courtyard garden adjacent to my bedroom. Where a man can enjoy privacy and the comforts of bed and kitchen. In this space one can create a garden that is truly romantic and passé. When old this space can be accommodated into a solarium for comfort. All the ornamentals that make up the nursery industry can take the wayside until my home is in accord with the community and its local building materials.
I feel modern structures and their art is the most exciting field for gardening. Here one can meld any garden style from the cottages of tenet farmers to controlling the Landscape as in Versailles. Modern methods and materials like glass and concrete, flat roofs no longer make me angry or frustrated.

That is why Im here. I always thought the Quakers, Puritans and Shakers were the role models of clean lines good design and the right proportion of colors with gardening. I feared France, Italy and England for their control and geometry. Now I can accept change and am willing to learn everything.

Modern architecture is where the design of all cultures will inevitably be showcased and we will have to accept as with my love for traditional Japanese Gardens the historical restoration of gardens will be left for small communities having the wealth to live in a lifestyle no longer practical for most.

Plants I Like!!!!!!! Kind of weird for others to perceive. I like plants in the moment. Something like wow thats really cool. How did you think of that?! Thats when Ill remember the name of a plant.
-Monotropaceae (Indian Pipe) Placing this woodland flower in a very small Kare-San-Sui garden lacking color in the Zen form mimicking the monochrome ink brush scenes. You can go as deep as you want.

-Schizophragma hydrangeoides (Jap. Hydrangea-Vine) When the vine is trianed to grow vertically up a 4 stone wall then having it grow along the top as a cap. Very aristocratic looking for historical stone architecture like American Gothic.

I like all ornamental shrubs and trees. The guideline for me was how my great grandparents understood the difference between foundation plantings to hide the cement blocks during the turn of the century and homes with stone work and wood siding not needing foundation plantings Save the Azaleas,
Rhodos,Yews,Junipers,Roses, for the perimeter of the property and woodland Border and bring back the Paths,courtyards,arbors and cutting gardens closer to the home. I hate those shrubs around the house and think they are better used as in the manner of windbreaks and massing of color from afar.

Sorry got a little carried away. You would understand if you never wrote anything until such a late period in life. I never had to hand in an essay. The teachers from the previous year told next years hes to stubborn to teach. I got away with murder! Never read or did homework. I feel so happy to think again. And maybe it was for the better.
O.K. I want to choke myself.this was way tooo long. Wheres the gag order on this forum?

Thank you Ginger and Misee..Now comes the studying. This will be a new approach.

Thank you for the introduction, RckyM21.

It seems you are using the Japanese Gardening forum especially as a community of elders--just as people seek teachers and mentors in a real community, you are doing so in a virtual community. INKcognito is a good teacher and a good person from my understanding of him. Have you had an exchange with AshaK yet? Sounds as if your time to write,learn, and explore your motivations and desires has come. Many teachers here if the garden is the way you are proposing to understand yourself. Reminds me of the oft-quoted "When the student is ready, the teacher shall appear."

My concern is that the GardenWeb is a public forum with many eyes that you do not see. Most GW posters have e-mail addresses for off-line contact. If there are times you do not want the world to share your thoughts and feelings, it might be wise to use this more private vehicle for exchange.

Indian pipe was one of my favorite plants when I was a child. A plant that draws you to it.

Looking forward to thoughts you may have on garden renewal on this forum.
Ginger

What Ginger said!

melanie

Thank you Ginger and Melanie

The first body of study will be reading this thread and understanding the context and definitions of many words and phrases pertaining to Garden Restoration. This will take time.

The next will be contributing without using as Ginger has suggested personal thoughts and feelings. The first week has been cathartic enough to now approach the historical and physical works combined on this forum of Garden Restoration.

I'm starting to believe now while typing that the people here are defining the vernacular, terminology of what all other garden forums are about. Something to do with the four Rs and cottage garden However Japanese Gardening will always be an open book to teach humility, loss of ego and a sense of all things are in essence truth. This will help me learn philosophy, mythology and their roles in a garden. Reading the big thinkers will somehow be relative to my experiences that I accept not deny what others teach as relevant and useful. To go forward into new styles and forms of gardens and their materials and letting change be accepted. For example cement!! I love stone but now have to earn a respect for cement! Why? I dont know but somehow cement and metal and plastic is invading my desires to hold onto traditional garden methods. Now I know the difference between a tourist and the person living in that town dependent apron tourism. No longer will I choose a place of worship based upon a stone structure and formal gardens. Thinking out of the box!!

Also I have a bad habit of using other peoples names and thoughts without their permission. This will be another study. Writing words makes one realize the impermanent qualities of spoken words and the hard hitting consequences of damaging, insulting , or simply invading the rights of privacy.. In this sense garden conversations are to become respectful and knowing right from wrong. A good challenge indeed.

If nothing else I'm using the computer as a tool. I found out how to copy,paste, use micro. word then put onto the forum last night. Never handed in one work typed in school. Just left a hand written page and walked away. So anti computer. That hurts in the long run. The last week I'd type so fast hoping to submit before I'd loose data somehow while in this little box:)
Ricky