Lisa,
I don't have much of an answer for you as I've never had acreage, but be sure, wherever you go, that you research the water situation. Make sure you have the legal right to water outdoors. Make sure there is enough water available and make sure the water is good. I have lived in Montana and now in Colorado (I did live in Utah for a short time, but I didn't garden there). Water rights and availablity can be big issues.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tales of a Transplanted Gardener

Boy, that's great advice from greenbean08. Water rights are very tricky here (it can even be illegal to impound rainfall for a stock pond, depending on what rights you have).

Other than that, elevation matters in that the higher up you are, and shorter your growing season will be. Ditto going North. Shorter seasons in most cases the further north you go.

Sounds like you have a great trip planned! I think you'll get a good feel for the different areas just by spending time here. The gardeners here are from all over the Rocky Mountain area, so you can definitely do some amount of gardening anywhere.

Greenbean, thank you for your advice! It is very interesting that you grow varieties of Tomatoes that I grow here in the deep South! We have opposite growing seasons. Our best time is fall, winter and spring. The only really nice time to be here is in the "dead" of winter when it gets below 70 degrees(G).

We are under watering restrictions here in Florida, but that is limited to watering lawns. I never water my grass/lawn, I hand water my fruit trees or use soaker hoses from rain barrels.

We don't pay for water. We have a well, since we are in a rural area. I use rain barrels for the Banana beds and veggies.

What are water rights? When we look at land, most of the areas we like best have multiple rivers or streams.

*Please* excuse my ignorance. When we were in Wyoming, the land was lush and water seemed plentiful. How is it restricted to homeowners?

Do you not just get a well drilled? The properties we looked at had roads, power and phone lines. No water stuff was mentioned, and I did not know to ask.

Are there any areas known for growing fruits? Or do you all buy your fresh produce? Oddly enough, here in South Florida, where it is easy to grow Bananas, Avocados, Pineapples, Papayas, etc, most folks buy the ones at the supermarket that come from other countries!
Makes no sense!

Of course, I would plan to grow suitable plants for cold climates in your area, but I'd have to bring a few oddballs for indoors, like my Cacao and Miracle Fruit.

We saw barren, windswept plains, heavily wooded areas, and a nice mixture of mountains/valley and fields. We want to leave most of our property natural, with just a garden and pasture for our use.

Is that possible in a place so rich in wildlife?

Lisa

I only know Colorado water law, and that only a little, so for Wyoming you would need to consult someone local. But generally in the Western US, just because you see a stream cross a property doesn't mean you can use it. Or you might be able to use it only when streamflows reach certain levels. It all depends on what rights you have, and how senior they are (what year they were attached to that property).

Water rights are handled very differently in the Western US, than they are in the East. Groundwater is also tightly regulated in the many parts of the west and in Colorado definitely.

I used to work on water rights at The Nature Conservancy, but I'm not a lawyer, just FYI. For Colorado's water, at least, every drop is adjudicated by the Water Court, and thus greenbean's excellent advice to make certain of your water rights if you buy land. If you're inside some city limits, your water will usually come from the city, and you'd ask them for info about what is allowed.

I think you'd like it here in Colorado!! I'm a Southern California native who was accustomed to having fruit trees in the yard: avocado, apple, orange, lemon, walnut, peach, apricot, grapefruit and the neighbor's plum that grew through the fence!

I'm not sure what grows here that well and I doubt you'll have a banana or papaya but so many posters on this forum grow an abundance of their own produce. Seems mostly like veggies, but that is just what I've noticed.

We are up pretty high-ish and our town doesn't let us collect rain water or snow melt off. I've never actually looked into it, that is just what everyone says. I find it odd, too. My parents' home in Oregon is on a stream on two sides and they have a large amount of access allowable. I think in Colorado it is different because so much of the water is sold to Los Angeles??? I'm guessing!

But, the greater Denver area is a nice place. You can have hot weather by staying east of the rockies, milder summer temps but more snow by going west a bit into the foothills, and the city is always right there, not too far. There are college towns such as Boulder, which is north of Denver and Fort Collins, which is north of Boulder. There are more rural towns which are surrounded by farm land or former farm lands. There are new developments with the big shopping centers near by.

I'm not sure you'd have that much trouble with animals but the deer seem to be more prevalent down the mountain. In Boulder, they love to hang out in front yards eating apples off the tree. Up where we are, we hardly ever see deer and are more likely to see the rare elk or twenty. Our neighbors are starting with chickens for the first time so I told them about so and so who had three chickens eaten by a bear. Pretty rare, but I guess not impossible!

There was a bear sighting a few weeks ago and I saw a track more than a month ago, but they kind of stay out of the towns.

Raccoons!!! Yes, they are a nuisance! They irritate my dogs and eat/disturb my compost. And who knows what they carry. But, I've battled racocons in L. A. too.

Frankly, a lot of people I know have moved out to these parts, from the east and also from the pacific northwest, to escape the dampness. They say their allergies cleared up!

I love it out here and I think it would be worth visiting. You should come out when we have one of our plant swaps! Usually one week into September and one week into May. Come visit during a cold snap and during the heat of July, just to see if you like it.

I hope that helps!

Jennifer

I think you'll find many of the same conditions throughout the intermountain west, although as already pointed out, it's hotter farther south/lower elevations and colder farther north/higher elevations. It tends to be pretty dry in the summer and we get most of our precipitation as snow.

Winters in the valleys tend to be fairly mild from the standpoint of temperature. I grew up in the midwest, where it would get bitterly cold, often dropping below -10 for weeks at a time. Here, it rarely drops below about 20 and has been in single digits only a handful of times since I moved here in 1993.

However, we get a lot of snow and we can also get late frosts in the spring and early frosts in the fall. It's not unusual to see snow in May and October.

As far as fruit growing, unless you're in AZ or NM, you won't be growing oranges or grapefruits, but there is plenty of fruit grown here. The town just north of were I live is called Fruit Heights. I think the stretch of route 89 that goes through here is still nicknamed fruit highway because of all the fruit grown along this stretch.

The water rights issue is really tricky and goes way back in history. Remember all those westerns (like Angel and the Badman) where the rancher cuts off the water to the settlers? Water rights go back to those days, where they'd divide up the water and try to ensure that everybody downstream gets water. It's possible to buy land without buying the water rights (just as it's possible to buy land without rights to mine the minerals, gas, oil, etc in some places).

One problem we're running into now is that some of the water laws that were written were created during an abnormally wet period and even then probably overestimated the amount of available water, so there is probably more water allocated among rights holders than there is actual water.

I know this wasn't one of the things you included in your considerations, but Wyoming doesn't have any state income tax. I could be wrong, but I think it's the only state out here that doesn't. They've also got low sales tax rates. I think it's because of the oil and natural gas they have.

Here is a page with information on all the states and their taxes.

Water rights means you have the legal right to use the water. The laws are different in different states. In Colorado, it not actually legal to have a rainbarrel - that water belongs to someone else (whoever has the right to wherever it would end up - though I don't think there are rain barrel police...) Just because a river or stream goes through your property doesn't automatically mean you have the legal right to use that water to irrigate. That right may belong to someone downstream. There are properties out here that have a well and they can use the well water ONLY for domestic, indoor use. No outdoor watering (which I'm not sure, but may also apply to watering animals outdoors).

Just drilling a well isn't always an option either. A lot of places, the water table is so far down that it's not practical to drill, or there may not be water available. In Montana, I saw a lot of properties with cisterns instead of wells. You haul water or pay a water company to fill it from their truck. There are also areas where the water is bad - we rented a house that the water had so much iron in it, it turned my fingernails, toenails and clothes yellow and orange - and we only lived there 6 months.

It's not necessarily all bad- you should just be aware, and know that you should ask, read, and know the rules.

Mineral rights are often not included with the land either. I'm less familiar with mineral issues, but I think there's a guy not far from here who is dealing with a road being built across his property by the owner of the mineral rights - and he's not happy about it.

All the tomatoes I planted are new for me. I received the seeds from another member of this forum. I'm looking forward to seeing how they do!

My brother lives in FL (S of Tampa). I've only been there once - in July of all times. I need to go visit him during the cooler weather!

Hi Lisa,

Welcome to RMG!

Ill start with a question! Why 4 or 5 years? Just curious!

Ditto what Jennifer (jnfr) and Greenbean have said about checking out the water situation before you buy anything. If youÂre within a municipality in a metropolitan area, youÂll almost definitely not be allowed to drill a well and will use the city water supply. If youÂre in an unincorporated area, youÂll probably use a well, but if youÂre buying an existing property, the well will most likely already be there. Wells out here draw on underground aquifersÂthereÂs no such thing as a water table 10 or 20' under the surface like there would be in Florida. HereÂs a link to a CSU (Colorado State University) Extension Service fact sheet on home wells. When I lived near Parker (southeast of Denver) we had 2½ acres and had to drill a well. It was drilled to over 300', and the pump was originally set at 125'. After living there for several years, with continuing constructionÂand more wells, my well "went dry." Luckily, since the well was considerably deeper than the pump, all I had to do was have the well drilling company come back to pull the pump out and reset it at a deeper level to get water again. Even that wasnÂt cheap, but it was a lot cheaper than if they had had to actually drill the well deeper. I moved out of that house around Â90, but IÂve always wondered how many more times the succeeding owners had to have the pump lowered, and if they ever had to have it drilled deeper. Construction in that area continued exponentially after I left, and I suspect that all new home construction now is required to have a municipal source of water. I wonder about that too!

If you find something within a city, be sure you check out what possible watering restrictions might be imposed the next time we go thru a serious drought! A few years ago when we were in the most recent drought, all the towns in the Metro Denver area had restrictions, but just exactly what they were depended on the specific town. Denver (and I think Aurora) had some of the worst watering restrictions. In Denver you were allowed to water outside 2 or 3 days a weekÂaddresses with even numbers on certain days and addresses with odd numbers on the other days! Of course if you water your grass the right way to start with, so it establishes a deep root system, watering deeply once a week is more than enough! I live in Thornton on the north end of Denver, and our restrictions werenÂt nearly as bad as DenverÂs.

So do be sure you know what you can and canÂt do with "your" water. As Jennifer said, even if thereÂs a stream on your property, the water may not "belong" to you! Water isnÂt abundant out here, like youÂre used to in FloridaÂbut the good news is, while thereÂs not a lot in the ground, thereÂs not a lot in the AIR either! No more muggy days and nites! If you donÂt like the humidity, youÂll LOVE the Rocky Mountain west!

Did you fly into Jackson? Jackson Hole is lush and forested because itÂs on the edge of the Tetons, but 90% of Wyoming is dry and barrenÂand WINDY! Are you driving out this year, or flying? If flying, get a seat by a window and watch the land as you fly over. When you get to eastern Colorado youÂll see BIG green "circles" all over the place. When IÂm working and passengers ask me about them, I tell them theyÂre Crop Circles! And they areÂbut in a different way from the ones in England! The big circles are how the farmers in eastern Colorado irrigate their crops. If they didnÂt irrigate, nothing would grow. When you get to the mountains it starts to look greener, but even in Denver, if everybody suddenly stopped watering, most plants would be dead within a year, and even most of the trees would be dead in a few years. Out of state visitors are often amazed when theyÂre driving around Denver and see whole public parks being irrigated.

Since youÂre not used to four seasons, a word about snow! Most people think Denver is buried under snow all winter! Not! Most of the time it snows out in the mountainsÂwhere itÂs supposed toÂbut even when it does snow in Denver, it almost always melts off in a couple days. ThatÂs because our high altitude sun is so much warmer than the sun at sea level. Of course, since the winter of Â05, IÂm a little bit hesitant to say thatÂthat winter we got a new snow storm every week, and there wasnÂt even room for them to plow it off of the edges of the streets anymoreÂbut IÂve lived out here since Â64, and thatÂs the first time IÂve ever seen anything like that! And, I hope, the last!!! So if you pick a place out in the hills, you might be buried under snow all winter, but not in Denver or along the front range. In the Denver area, as long as the sun is out, you donÂt even need a coat most of the time in winter!

YouÂre not going to find "good" soil out here, so I wouldnÂt worry too much about that when youÂre looking! YouÂre going to get some combination of clay and rocks, and you just learn to work with what youÂve got. Many of us here on RMG do veggie gardening, and you can grow most of the standard home garden veggies. A few things, like melons and other things that require a long growing season are marginal at best, but we all share ideas on the best varieties to try out here. And most of us have flowers/perennials, and there are WAY lots of those you can grow no matter where you decide to live. TheyÂll be different ones from what youÂre used to now, but we can help introduce you to lots of things that do well out here. You can choose to go with xeric or non-xeric, or a combination. There are lots of things to grow once you adjust your thinking to growing dryland things and/or get used to watering. When you have time, check out some of the other threads. We tend to post a lot of pictures around here!

Since youÂre into gardening, as Jennifer has said, the further north you go, or the higher in elevation you go, the shorter your growing season will be, so that is definitely something to consider when youÂre looking. Fruit trees are definitely growable out here, but just which ones youÂll be able to have will depend on the location you choose. I think the biggest problem with growing fruit is the yearly possibility of a freeze at the wrong time which would kill the blossoms/fruit for that year. A lot for fruit is grown out on the western slope around the Grand Mesa. Palisade (just east of Grand Junction) is probably the best known "fruit" town, but there are orchards over on the other side of the mesa too, around the Delta area. If you get over that way, I recommend a drive to Montrose, about 20 miles south of DeltaÂand thru the town of Olathe, famous for its sweet corn. Montrose is a nice little, unspoiled, mountain town! Actually, itÂs my favorite place in Colorado to go to get away from it all! And if you go that far, you might as well take a drive to The Black Canyon of the GunnisonÂone of our National Parks, and worth the drive to see it!

AndÂif youÂre going to be up in Montana/Idaho, be sure you take the time to drive over the Going to the Sun Road that goes thru Glacier Natl. Park. IÂm sure youÂll enjoy it! (IÂm into National Parks!)

And last but definitely not least! We usually have our Fall Swap about the first week in September, and if you happen to be in the Denver area at the right time, youÂre more than welcome to come join us! If you want to see what IÂm talking about, go to the Spring Swap Â09 thread. Alright! I just refreshed your thread and I see this idea is not original to me! Jennifer (jclepine - we have two Jennifers around here!) has just invited you to the swap tooÂso I second the invitation! :-)

In case you canÂt tell from all thisÂI LOVE Denver and Colorado! And I see Jennifer does too! I think a whole lot of us that live out here do. I grew up in Illinois near Chicago, lived in NYC for a year, and lived briefly in Lancaster County PennsylvaniaÂand, of those places, and a lot more that IÂve been to but never lived at, the friendliest people are definitely in Denver/Colorado! I love the climate. I love the BLUE sky (did you know that we get more days of sunshine than Florida?) I love the mountainsÂand the mountain streams and lakes. I love the peopleÂfiguratively speaking! I love the cool evenings, even when itÂs hot in summer. I love the dry air. I love..................

Skybird

For fruit, a look at the hardiness zone maps for the RM states would be a good idea. I've linked the one on gardenweb below.

Tree fruit is probably only commercially grown in zone 6 and above. Since there's not all that much zone 6 and above - that might be a fairly limited area to explore, at least by map.

The orchard country of Idaho is pretty much limited to Canyon and Payette counties near Boise. The other areas are close around.

It is certainly true that one can grow apples, apricots, cherries, plums, etc. in colder zones but it becomes progressively more risky. Strawberries and raspberries represent less risk.

Steve

Wow, what a wealth of information you kind people have offered! Many, many thanks for the links and details!

We will be exploring Colorado, Wyoming and Idaho the second half of September. We have been to Colorado quite often, and always loved it. Wyoming especially appeals to us because of the low population, and no income tax. The entire state has less than 1/3 of the population of our "county!"

Something about the West makes us want to be outside (the air, the beauty, the coolness), doing things, instead of hiding in A/C in Florida. On our visit to Jackson Hole last year, we rode horses in the mountains nearly every day, white-water rafted and enjoyed Grand Teton and Yellowstone Parks. It was AWESOME! Jackson Hole is stunning, but we can't afford property there. We keep playing the Lottery though.... (VBG)

My husband can retire in 4 years from the Police Dept. I'll keep on working, I'm sure(G). He wants to teach, so is finishing up his Master's degree before we move.

Thank you all for your welcome and help!

Lisa

"I just refreshed your thread and I see this idea is not original to me! Jennifer (jclepine - we have two Jennifers around here!) has just invited you to the swap tooso I second the invitation! :-)"

Actually, there can't be too many Jennifer's but there seems to be quite a few! (Now Stevation and Stevie will chime in. ;o) And, there is also Fun Jen but that may just be in my garden.

There's a chance that we will get a little "Dafy" around here, at times. I'm inclined to blame the altitude but only because I live so far down the hill.

I didn't want to leave the impression that zone 6 is the only place to have productive fruit trees. That isn't at all true. Zone 5 is also a very appropriate choice and there's plenty of that country to go around in the Rocky Mountain Region. I'd be curious to know what the tree fruit opportunities might be for zone 4.

I have to admit to thinking now and then about moving to Walla Walla and its fertile soil and much warmer climate. That's about 200 miles southwest of where I garden. I don't know if the Blues count as a range in the Rockies or not but there is awfully pretty country east of that productive valley right on into Montana.

Steve

Let me just say that water will be the biggest issue on the Colo Front Range, and I have given presentations stating my belief that this area will begin to depopulate within 50 years. Southern Denver area cities are spending $Bns to deliver water to just a few tens of thousands of future homes. Other areas in the Intermountain West may depopulate as well, esp. if we start mining oil shale. Colo water rights are different than Wyo., and these two are much harder to interpret than UT and MT.

Next will be man-made climate change impacts, and we see the beetle kill and droughts here already. You'll want to research what these impacts will be in your settlement area of choice, as this should drive your choice - fire will be an issue in droughts (more than normal fire regimes) and should drive your choice of house construction - straw bale, durisol are more fire resistant than stick-built and you'll have to learn fire-wise landscaping. Our forests are changing in front of our eyes and if you want trees to look at on your property, you'll want to research what they are and whether they will be there in 10 years.

This old weatherman will tell you that if you want extensive veggie gardens, you'll want to spend some time in that spot, as desiccating winds and little moisture make subtropical nematodes look like child's play. And elevation gives you more sun in the winter, and that means cool seasons all winter long under insulated glass. But you'll get all the sunlight you want. Not the water or humidity or temps, but you'll get sunlight.

Purchase a Sunset Western Garden Book and learn to understand the climate zones therein. They will tell you whether you can grow stone fruits or pome fruits. Then subscribe to the catalogue High Country Gardens to understand what plants will flourish here and in what kind of soil. And then budget some money to purchase fencing to keep the critters out of the beds you make, which will likely be raised for drainage and aspect. A few years ago, an old GF and I looked for land for homesteading and found that the tradeoffs in Eastern WA and ID were good enough to do so, but the rapidly increasing land prices there made that impossible at the time. If you want to homestead and such, you'll want to come out here. But you'll want to be sure you understand the near-term and medium-term changes coming to this area and whether you have the resources and means to deal with them.

Dan

Dan has a really good point! Up where we are, the beetle is causing quite a bit of havoc. The locals say "no worries, we had this in the 70s and the trees came back." But, the new guy they brought in says it will be much worse than the previous blight. And, if you do find interest in a wooded area, check out if that town has a plan for the tree kill. My town cannot afford to remove the dead trees which leaves us pretty open to fire hazard and falling trees. But, a town not too far away does have a plan, so you never know. But, that is more if you choose to be within the mountains.

Also, I wanted to add that we grow raspberries and strawberries up here and they are wonderful! Forgot about that.

I still think it is a terrific area. Aside from the raccoons, the only animals we used to get in the yard, before we put up the fence, were the neighborhood dogs!

I had a feeling 4-5 years had something to do with retirement! That gives you plenty of time to check out all the places out west.

In practical terms, if you want to have horses and garden on acreage similar to your situation in Fl, you'll need to move to an area where irrigation water is available. I'm only familiar with the west slope of Colorado, but there are several 'irrigation districts', all different in seasonal timing, quantity, price, etc. As an example, my irrigation district sells a single 'share' which is the equivalent of 4 acre feet, running from May 1 to Oct 31. Right now, a share costs about $7500, and we pay an annual fee of around $150 to use it. It's your responsibility and cost to get it from the ditch to your property - sometimes that isn't all that easy to do. We have ranches here with 2,000 shares - I own 5, which gives me more water than I can possibly use, but thats the way it goes - when I moved here, that was the minimum number of shares they would deal with. I have to dump the excess down the draw back into the watershed. If I don't, I can lose the right to the water.

Five miles north of me in a different irrigation district, the 'share' is about 20 acre feet, sells for $50,000, and the season is May 15 - Aug 1st.

Generally, as the ranches get chopped up into 3 - 20 acre subdivisions, they chop up the water shares as well, so it is fairly easy to find the irrigation water.

But as others have pointed out, this issue of the future use of water in the west is the 800 lb gorilla. Not enough to go around, and it's going to change. Somehow, at some point, the choice between trying to sustain some lavishly watered garden - pasture- orchard, in what is essentially a desert, vs millions of people in some city, the city is going to win.

I used to practice in Douglas Co and the well depth there in many places is in the thousand + feet range if you have water rights to drill for it. You definitely don't want to be on your own well when droughts likely become commonplace here (within a generation). Irrigation Dists will also start jacking up their prices as well, and if Colo water rights change, these will be traded and the city folk will purchase these rights.

Dan

Since you mention being particularly interested in WY, I guess I should stick my 2 cents in here. I live in Casper, smack dab in the middle of the state. As others have noted, Jackson and the area around it is an anomaly in this state. Most of WY is flat, arid plains - and very windy. Casper/Cheyenne go back and forth for 5th/6th windiest cities in the country. Believe me, it makes a difference in gardening.

Many people have already mentioned water rights and mineral rights. Very important, especially in the northern areas of the state where 1) water is used in gas mining and the quality of the water returned is in question and 2) there is a dispute with MT over WY using more than our share of water. Also, there are grazing rights, probably wouldn't affect you, and the growing interest in windfarming, which means you need to find out if someone is planning to put a bunch of wind turbines next door to your property (big dispute going on about this here in Casper now).

As far as agriculture, well, there isn't too much. In the north and the east, sugar beets are a big crop and there are also some beans up near Powell. There is a raspberry farm out near Shoshone, that's the only commercial fruit production I know of in this area. As I have mentioned in another thread, the "local" farmers at our farmer's market, which doesn't start up til late July by the way, are mostly from Colorado or Nebraska.

OK, that all sounds really negative, so I should also say that we can grow raspberries, strawberries, grapes, pie cherries and the occasional apple (I think there is one apple tree in Casper). Plus veggies, of course, using short season varieties. Oh yeah, we have very alkaline soil so otherwise hardy crops that need acidic conditions don't make it here(think blueberries).

I would suggest that when you find places that you are serious about, you drop in on the local county extension agent who will no doubt be able to give you much more detailed info about gardening in any specific area.

Good hunting.

Even with all the worry about wind and water, I love living in Colorado, and wouldn't want to be anywhere else. In honor of this thread, I'll contribute this old Frederick Remington picture, showing that water wars are nothing new in the west!

Please don't take our warnings as negativity. If you just said you were moving somewhere in RM area and had basic gardening questions, you wouldn't get quite this kind of reply, but since you mentioned acreage and bigger plans, it is important to know that what you might never to think to ask about could end up being a major problem down the road for you.

I have lived in 6 states. Montana and Colorado have been my favorites- (though I would think about going back home to Vermont if I had the opportunity).

One thing to add to all the discussion of water rights is that you shouldn't panic about them and decide not to move out here because of the water rights issue. Most likely, the places that you've looked at and will look at have some water rights with them. It's just that you can't assume that you've got water, so you should always check to make sure.

I was sorta thinking the same thing! When you read all the posts, were kinda making it sound like moving out here is a pretty scary proposition! Its not! Pretty much anywhere in the Rocky Mountain area is a great place to live. Chances are youll wind up buying an established property, and all the water rights will already be part of the package and nothing youll need to worry aboutbut I think everybody here just wants to be sure you know what to ask about before you give anybody any money!

On the pro side, we dont have hurricanes, we dont have earthquakes, we dont have humidity, and we DO have some of the most beautiful mountains in the world, some wonderful National Parks, wonderful weather (most of the time), and mostly upbeat, happy people! From what youve said above, I think youre going to fit right in and love it out here!

Ill be really, really interested to hear what you think about the different areas you go to when you come out here. I think well all be looking forward to a report after your trip!

Dont let us scare you off!
Skybird

P.S. Jennifer, love your Water Wars picture! :-)