Hey Steve!!

Those USDA maps use a broad brush, don't they? Well, if the minimum for the entire winter isn't likely to drop below a -10F, you should still be in a zone 6.

What are you doin' - planning to buy some trees? If you are just thinking about annual gardening - wait, I know you! You are thinking ALL kinds of perennials for the yard!

Anyway . . . the annual garden (for those who like looking at dirt 6 months out of the year) - the University of Utah has frost/freeze dates for Draper of 06-Jun and 23-Sep.

http://climate.usurf.usu.edu/reports/freezeDates.php

If you go back to their weather reports page and click on "North Central Utah" - UofU has daily averages for Draper but they claim it is at 4,500 feet . . ?

http://climate.usurf.usu.edu/reports/static.php

U of U has quite a climate department. You know what I'd do? I'd call them and say, "What is my hardiness zone, I'm at 6,200 feet?"

Steve

Hi Steve,

Welcome home to RMG --- and welcome home to your own new home--and your own dirt! Is there a Big Signing Day scheduled yet? Really glad to hear it's all coming together for you! Will you have a BIG yard for me to envy?

The site linked below is a wonderful interactive zone map I found the beginning of this year. Go to the link and then, from the U. S. map, zoom in on your area and then click on the different zone colors around the edges of the map and they will show up on the map. It's a lot more detailed than the "standard" USDA zone map. Don't start out by putting your zip in! That will limit you to a much smaller map which makes it harder to check the zones in surrounding areas!

When you zoom in, it shows Draper as z6a, and it shows Alpine, Highland, and American Fork as z5b, COLDER than Draper. (I've been stalking you on FB! Went looking for a zip code to see what that would show, and found your post on the SunCrest site!) When I zoomed into Draper, I think I may have even found the "ridge" you're talking about! Do you have a great view???

After you find you on the bigger map, put in your zip code (I used the one on the SunCrest site) and it'll take you to a smaller, and more "zoomed out" map that has lots of "other" information, and includes a bunch of links on the right side to things like first and last frost dates, and more!

This is the best zone map I've ever found, and I'm glad you asked about your zone, 'cause I lost all my links when my hard drive crashed a couple months ago, and I hadn't thought about searching for this site again till I saw your post! Now I have it back in my bookmarks again--where it belongs!

Tell us more about your new house and YARD, and what some of your early plans are for your new garden--for the two of you!

Skybird

Here is a link that might be useful: Interactive USDA Zone Map

I'm at 6,400 feet, a few degrees latitude to the south -

I think what you'll notice isn't so much the extreme cold temps, but just the generally cooler temperatures in the summer. I'm pretty much always 5 degrees cooler in the summer than the town 5 miles away, 500 feet lower.

In the winter, you have the cold air drifting off the hills down to the valleys, so the daytimes can actually be slightly warmer.

A lot of your micro-climate will depend on the aspect of the land - are you facing east/west/south/north?

So nice to see three of my old RMG friends answer so soon! Thanks guys! OK, so here's the skinny: We actually are near final approval on two short sales, both on top of this ridge at 6000 to 6200 feet. Both have awesome views of the valley below. I'm going to focus on the one that seems closest to approval, which is fortunately the nicer of the two.

This ridge is 1700 feet above the valley, so yes, Steve, the weather stations for Draper aren't really accurate, being at 4500 feet. It's good to know, David, that your experience is just that the summer temps are a little lower. I've noticed that here, too, and the extreme winter lows so far haven't seemed much different than the valley. We do have some later freezes in the spring, which would delay planting some veggies and annuals.

This house has an east-facing backyard and west-facing front. It's got a killer view of the Wasatch Mountains, including Mt. Timpanogos, from the backyard, with nice twinkling city lights down below in Utah Valley at night.

Skybird, it's a small yard. Most of the houses up here have small yards, because people are buying the great views. But I'm actually fine with that (never mind my "half acre of paradise" blog, huh?). The grass areas are small enough that I can get a push-reel mower and not have to make lots of noise and emissions. I'm looking forward to that. The previous owner put in a lot of brick pavers in the back, and we'll probably pull out some of them to expand the flowerbeds that border the grass. It has some nice, young trees, and some good hardscape, but I need to figure out where I can put a few fruit trees and a veggie garden. Maybe I can post a pic tomorrow if you'd like to see the backyard.

I did see that plantmaps.com site yesterday, and it's nice to zoom into that level of detail, but I just wasn't sure if it's accurate for low temps up on this ridge. Not sure there's ever been much monitoring up here.

So, David, are you saying that your winter lows are really not any worse than land that is nearby but lower elevation? With this place being almost 2000 feet higher than the valley, I'm thinking there has got to be some difference in zone, but my main concern is that I want to be sure I can grow some fruit trees. My space for them is limited, too, so I may have to try some columnar varieties or something very compact. And if my zone were really different, I might have to look for some really cold-hardy varieties.

Anyway, I think that's enough rambling for tonight!

Steve, my area is heavily influenced by plateaus and mountains around, so we get currents of air at different temperatures going this way and that way - but generally, yes, its about the same winter temperature as 500 feet below, and cooler in the summer.

As for fruit trees - oh boy. This area was once a major apple growing region, and there are active and abandoned orchards at a whole range of altitudes - and again generally speaking, I get a an apple crop every year. Apricot, once in 5 years, plums 1:5, peaches, 1:3, pie cherries, most years. The big sweet cherries - I've yet to get a crop in 8 years - and the trees are an aphid magnet.

I can drive 1/2 a mile down the hill, maybe 50' lower, and there is an orchard with assorted fruit trees that blooms a steady week ahead of my trees.

Let me recommend a stunningly delicious apple - Almata - that has given fruit every year I've had it planted. Its a red/pink -fleshed apple, they are supposed to be ripe in September/October, but here they ripen up in early August - what the heck. This is tart, great eaten fresh, makes great pies, dried apples, apple sauce, apple butter/jelly. I'd plant it in the east facing yard, which should help retard blooming in the spring.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to source for Almata apple tree

Wonderful, David! I'll make a note to check out Almata as I start tree shopping. Sounds great.

So, even with peaches, you lose your crop most years? Because of blooming too early and late freezes? I was reading something about peaches and apples for cold climates and saw some recommendations for late-blooming varieties. What peach varieties do you have?

Oh, and Skybird, here is a glimpse of the view from the deck, which is attached to the main floor but above the level of the backyard, since the ground slopes down for a walk-out basement. The backyard is small, but it borders on wild land, as that hill slopes down to grass and scrub oak below. I love the setting!

Beautiful view!!

I don't recall off hand what varieties of peach I've got now - but I just ordered Red Haven and July Elberta which are good to zone 5 -

Yes, its a question of warm springs and late frosts - or more accurately hard freezes. I'm far from an expert, but I'd try plant a tree where the spring sun isn't going to warm up the tree or the soil as much - but thats going on local folk lore, nothing scientific.

Anyway, look for the latest blooming ones you can find for Zone 5, but take all that with a grain of salt, because it seems that most fruit tree data/info comes from milder, or more 'regular' seasonal climates.

I have been doing some thinking about this, Steve, and realize that I have nothing much to add other than observations. First, THAT is a Utah view!!

Something I like most about Utah - vistas that can go on for miles!

Here was an observation from looking at that data on Draper climate: the community is a little warmer overnight and a lot warmer thru the day, than up here - on average. Altho' the annual and even monthly precipitation totals are about the same - rarefied air (isn't that what we call it) must make all the difference. I'm only at about 2,000 feet.

Steve, you have good reason to be thinking about hardiness zones for the safety of your trees. Most people think they can explain their "growing" climate by referencing hardiness zone. Makes no sense - especially when you realize, for example, that parts of Louisiana and Washington State fall in the same hardiness zone.

Even if we focus just on the growing season - and frost-free period - we are going to miss a lot of clarity. Witness the fact that it will be a lot warmer at the end of an average day for you, than for me. By the next morning, we will be in about the same place - thermometer speaking, that is.

Fruit tree choices? I think paying close attention to what another RMG'er has at 6,400 feet is a very good idea. Here, I notice that Washington State University has its designated fruit-growing areas. Northeast Washington is in the "Other" category. Sharing "Other" is western Washington! Riiightt!

I have what is probably a "Blushing Star" white peach. It is a young tree and has had only a few seasons, bearing fruit. One season was excellent! Did you know that there is a Suncrest variety? Don't be too influenced by names, okay. Utah State has a list of common choices for peaches in your state - I've linked it below. I am hoping that the higher elevations in Carbon County may be more similar than other areas closer to you.

Steve

Here is a link that might be useful: Utah State peach varieties

Here's something thats fun - linked is the NOAA site for Draper - you can use the google map in the lower right to zoom in and you can move the 'bulls eye' to pretty darn close to exactly where your new house is - the forecast temps should adjust -

Here is a link that might be useful: link

Steve, that USU link was great! Thanks everyone, for the comments and tips!

Here's an important question prompted by something David said:

This house has a small backyard, and I don't want any of the trees to block that amazing view. The best place to plant a few trees would actually be next to the south facing wall of the house. Now, would that be good for something like a peach tree because it might protect the blossoms from freezing? Or would it be bad, because it might promote earlier blooming, because the trees are warmer than they should be, making the blossoms more susceptible to freeze damage by blooming too early?

I'd bet on the earlier blooming. Now if the micro-climate is protective enough so that they don't freeze, thats another issue all together. I bet you could do something to influence that, though, like put a blanket over it.

Your higher elevation than the valley means you will get a wider swing in temperatures during the day--so it may be 75 during the day and freeze at night when it doesn't freeze in the valleys. This makes the spring and fall a riskier time and likely a shorter growing season because of the wider daily temperature swings. At the same time, being higher up than the surrounding valleys, the winter lows and summer highs will probably be milder than in the lower elevations.

Not sure how all this translates into gardening selections, other than select trees that are late bloomers and/or plant them on a north facing slope where they will come out of dormancy later in the spring. Ripening times will be a little later than in the valleys due to the lower heat units at your elevation, and you will need to cover your tomatoes a bit earlier than they do in the valleys in the fall.

We got the house! The bank finally approved our offer on the short sale, and we'll be closing at the end of January. High-altitude gardening, here I come!!!! :)

Happy New Year, Everyone!

And especially for you, Steve . . .

. . . Happy New Year!

digitSteve

Congratulations on the new dirt, Steve! Glad it's all working out for you! I never got back here to say: I Hate You! Your view is absolutely miraculous! I got a bunch of pics of those mountains one time when we were on our descent into SLC. That's what I figured you were lookin' at! That is definitely a good tradeoff for a smaller yard---and--well--since you border on vacant land, you could always start planting some xeric, native-looking stuff there too! I believe in "improvising" when the situation calls for it! ;-)

Happy, happy New year to the two of you!

Happy, happy New Year to our Steve (with) Digits!

and Happy, happy New Year to all our good friends here on RMG!

Skybird

Thanks, guys. And Skybird, I know when you say "I hate you" you're really saying you're happy for me! :)

Great pic from a plane, Skybird! You actually got the location just right. Here's a pic that shows where the house is. It's hard to tell, but if you look close, there are a bunch of tiny houses up on top of the ridge there. This location is on a part of the ridge where the mountain drops down to the east, giving us that fantastic east view of the Wasatch Front range and the valley below.

I am so happy to hear that you are back! I was kinda sad when I read your post a couple years ago that you were not longer in your home. I enjoyed your post so much loved your yard you had made and followed your advise on gardening in utah. I am so happy things are going well for you now. Your new view is out of this world! And I know your yard will be just as beautiful. Glad things are going well for you and yours! Happy new year!

Thanks, Mary! One thing I'm actually relieved about is that it's a small yard, which means I can focus on some great, high-quality plants without having to buy 30 of each. Plus, I'm married now (to a wonderful, amazing woman I dated when I was 22), and the two of us are dividing our time between our Utah home and our California home. When her kids are off to college in three years, she'll be here full-time. In the mean-time, with all the travel back and forth, I wouldn't have time for a half-acre yard. The big yard was nice for a while, but I'm going to enjoy this.