I have problems with in-house growing and that may be related to my experience in a greenhouse. Perhaps, I have expectations that are difficult for plants to live up to. The little backyard greenhouse just represents too much expense for winter growing, however.

What we learned in the greenhouses was that available light could be balanced against heat: The less light meant less heat. When supplemental light was available, the thermostats could be turned up. In most homes, temperatures are a good deal higher than in greenhouses thru the winter. With warmth but without adequate light, plants will stretch . . .

You may be curious about the Kewalo tomato, Kenny (I see that Tomatofest has it but probably just passed over the description in the past) but, I am curious about New Big Dwarf! What can you tell us about your experiences with that one - indoors or out?

Steve

That relationship between light needed and temperature makes sense. All tho I never though of it till you brought it up. Thanks.
This is my one, first time, new big dwarf, so all I can say is it a fine looking plant, very sturdy stem and has a couple of small fruits started.
Like I said, I just did a search of every where for smaller, early red varieties. If I had wanted smaller, I would plant stupice and never look back.
KennyP, who is 10 below this morning in Kersey (East of Greeley).

I like tomato plants that don't require much space (not that they are going to grow all that much in my garden anyway ;o). Sprawling doesn't help.

The "New" in the name kind of throws me. Here's what Jeff Casey says about New Big Dwarf: "New Big Dwarf was found by the S.M. Isabell Seed Co. growing in a field of a variety called Ponderosa (large fruited pink) but it had the growing habit of Dwarf Champion (tree-type). In 1915, Isabell released this variety. This tomato is an excellent variety for growing in pots due to its short stature."

Steve

Hey guys - you're wondering what a San Diegan is doing in this forum. I'm researching tomato varieties and season extending techniques for my brother in ID. I'm retired and have the time, he doesn't. So can any of you help in this effort? [1] First as to varieties ... I would assume short season, but some names, please. That Big Dwarf sounds interesting. Would determinant plants get down to the business of fruiting earlier than the indeterminant?
[2] Second - as to season extending. In another thread for UT I saw comments about using Wall O Water etc. for early protection. Have you folks had any experience with late season protection devices and/or techniques? Thanks for any help. :)

Where in ID, BorderBarb?

I garden and grow tomatoes, uh, on the Border.

I'll check back and make some suggestions on varieties but not on season-extension . . . others should be able to help on that.

Steve

WOW ! That was fast .... My sister works in Soda Springs. Their home is near there above the Cub River [I think] It is just beautiful. When I look at the weather stats for Soda Springs it makes me feel almost guilty about my nearly endless growing season.[inland San Diego county] But when I read the posts on the Soil & Compost Garden Web from people in Manitoba and other cold places, it is obvious that being passionate about gardening can't be sifled by a little [?] sub-zero weather. ..... So .... back to the subject of which tomatoes might do well for my brother. And any "tricks" that can be used to mitigate for the short season. Thanks ... barb

That is on a different Idaho border, Barb. Soda Springs is right up against Wyoming and, probably, about 500 miles and 4 or 5 degrees of latitude from here. Think San Diego to Sacramento . . .

Also, that's real high country. When I lived at a higher elevation up here, the only tomatoes I could get to ripen seemed to be Sub-Arctics. That was many years ago and there are other choices available now. I would recommend Bloody Butcher, for sure.

I don't like determinants. Half of their crop seem to ripen nicely and then the 2nd half always becomes blighted and is lost. The exception was Legend and I think that may also be early enough and grow well enough in cool weather to be a good choice for a larger slicer. It is supposed to be a determinant with special resistance to blight.

I have a small greenhouse and start my plants. I really think that I could grow most any variety if I used supplemental lighting and heat and started the plants 9 to 12 weeks before the weather would allow them to go out into the garden. The problem there is that I'd have another 30 days of heat bills and difficulty find the room for 8" or 10" pots.

Steve

Steve -- Thanks so much. I'll send those varieties to Doug. When I saw the average temps for that area it looked pretty dismal. I know he can grow other vegetables. The elevation thing is probably the kicker. I don't think that folks who live in Julian or on Palomar Mt. can grow tomatoes, right here in San Diego County. On the bright side, they can grow great apples and I can't....soooo maybe tomatoes are a will o the wisp that lures optimistic gardeners. In the Compost & Soils forum I see many comments from folks whose compost piles heat up, even when covered with snow. Which led me to think that some 'trick' might help to extend the season. Thanks again Steve. Merry Christmas and happy gardening.

I looked at the avg summer temps for Soda Springs, and they are very similar to where I live. We refer to these places as "'mater challenged". :-)

A couple of notes - ignore days to maturity. They all start to ripen up in the 2nd - 4th week of August, the shorter DTM the earliest, but thats by a few days at best. Then it gets cool at night in Sept, so everything slows down again. The big harvest is mid-September.

I try to grow the largest plants I can with the biggest root system, and bury a lot of the stem, all in soil with a lot of compost. The plants don't really start to grow until July when the soil warms up.

I always lose lots of plants to this and that, late and early frosts, disease, and so on. But I also get lots of tomatoes as well.

I'd ignore all that stuff about subtle flavor differences that the catalogs talk about, occasionally the conditions are right for this to develop, but nothing like in other parts of the country with warm nights.

David -- Thanks for the input. I'll pass along to my brother. I think he'll appreciate the "mater challenged" thought. No kidding! The lust for a perfect tomato sounds perfect for a wacky movie ... like the one about the guy who went crazy trying to kill a gopher... can't think of the name.

One question re: "soil warming up". Would black plastic help to hurry the warmth up? Or maybe "hot" fresh manure? Or piping in some of that hot air from DC? [or is that manure from DC?] [grin]

I use black weed barrier in all my vegetable garden, but it actually works to insulate the soil and keeps it cool - One year I tried burying a 5 gal bucket of fresh horse manure under each plant - they grew significantly better, but not enough to justify all that work - but then I do 50 - 60 plants. Most people who sell tomatoes at the market raise them both inside a greenhouse and outside as well - but the prices we get don't justify going to all that much trouble.

It all depends on how much time and trouble someone wants to go to. And on this forum, they're are all kinds of good ideas.

Now, this is exactly what KennyP will be interested in for his tomatoes there in the bay window: a manure-heated hotbed!

In such a hotbed: the fresh manure is 12 to 18 inches deep with plants growing on top in 4 to 6 inches of soil (Figure 3). The plants would be started in a coldframe set over such a hotbed. Later, they would be transplanted elsewhere in the garden. To leave even a "nitrogen hungry" plant like a tomato sitting on a bed of fresh manure 12-18 inches deep seems risky.

There's an old "rule of thumb" that 50 pounds of manure can go under each tomato plant. But, that doesn't sound to me like it would provide anywhere near the necessary amount to heat a coldframe.

Many tomato gardeners use wire cages to support their plants and cover the cages with plastic during the early weeks of the growing season. I think that these may be a reasonably efficient coldframes over a hotbed. They could move about the garden with the transplanted 'mater, later.

. . . don't know, haven't dun it.

Steve

Here is a link that might be useful: Hotbeds and Coldframes - University of Missouri

**Now, this is exactly what KennyP will be interested in for his tomatoes there in the bay window: a manure-heated hotbed! **
Think I will pass on that one. Got enough s,,, in my house all ready.
First ripe tomato-bush beefsteak is about 1.75 inches diameter (measured). Will eat it on Christmas. My tests don't really mean much because I keep changing lights and such around. I have only one or two fruits on each plant. Still getting flowers tho. Very slow, I think because of the cold temperature. Like I said, the new big dwarf is the best looking plant. Nice stalk.

Hey guys ... I thought this thread in the Soils & Compost forum might interest you. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/organic/msg1205150723547.html?2
You will note that a man from Austria was asking about organic fertilizers for tomato plants.

One response from KIMMSR was something I want to ponder .... as I've never tested my soil, so am flying blind, so-to-speak. Which might not be such a big deal here in the Land Of The Endless Summer [well, almost], but maybe for you guys whose growing season is counted in days... his comments about which nutrients are needed for good tomato growth might make a world of difference.

""It is better to prepare the soil in the fall with those nutrients that may be needed and adjust the soil pH because it can take some time for the soil bacteria to make those nutrients available to the plants. What needs to be put into your soil depends on what is needed and the only way to know that is with a good, reliable soil test. Simply throwing some "stonemeal", "hornmeal", or anything else could create as many problems as it might solve. Most soils do need more organic matter, compost and other vegetative waste and these things will supply nutrients to the plants. ......... Too much Nitrogen can grow lush, green plants that produce very little fruit. Too much Potash can interfere with Nitrogen uptake. If the Calcium and Magnesium are not in balance many problems qwill appear. Putting that mulch on your garden may well be the best thing you did.""

You've met Kimmsr, a 'character' whose mantra is 'test your soil'. :-) .

Where I am, if I took a soil sample every 20 feet around the place, say 30 samples, I'd have 30 completely different results.

In my experience, what limits tomato growth at higher altitudes is temperature, not minute measures of nutrient level / balance.

Unless you live in an old river bed, the higher up you go in altitude, soils are generally pretty awful, and you need to seriously and pretty constantly amend your soil for growing vegetables. The best tomatoes I can grow, I need a foot thick layer of rotten horse manure over the soil I've amended the last 10 years with compost, manure, grass clippings, etc. There isn't much point in measuring nutrient levels in that.

David .... yeah, Kimmsr does beat the OM/test,test,test drum, but though he is a bit dogmatic, I think he has something to add to the discussions.

To the rest of you 'Mater-guys' ... I found a link to a blog from North Sweden about constructing a hotbed and using HOT horse manure. You will note that they had a tomato plant and got quite a harvest from one plant. BTW is Sweden far enough north to have very long summer days? That could be the secret, right? But anyway, thought you might find this interesting/useful. Scroll down to see the tomato plants and harvest pictues.
http://www.holon.se/garden/howto/hotbed_en.shtml

Nice discussions. Just noticed after all this time that I miss spelled indoor.
Here we go again with the cold weather. I will pick my tomato and dream of spring.
Idea from here. I have and old claw-foot bath tub. How about a foot of manure in the bottom and soil on top. If it will fit into my bay window. One tomato plant and one melon plant???? Did I say I was tired of winter?
KennyP

Well, Barb, that shows some success.

Lund is in the very south of Sweden but at nearly 56° north latitude, it is very far north. It is nearly as far north as Juneau Alaska. So, it would have about 19 hours of sunlight on the spring solstice.

The advice on the amount of soil to cover the manure is the same: 4 to 6 inches (10 to 15 cm). I wonder how a self-sown tomato seed could survive the heat sitting on top of a large composting pile of fresh horse manure.

Steve

Black plastic to warm soil, walls of water or 6 liter soda bottles filled with water placed around the plant to keep plant from being touched with frost and with the liter bottles you do not have to remove them and they keep reflecting the heat back for a while at night. Woven wire cages with plastic wrapped around them to help reduce wind damage. South side of the house or garage up against a wall for heat mass. Even zip lock bags filled with water placed around the base of the plants gives limited help. Row covers in the spring and tarps and blankets in the fall. Just a few of the things we do to have vine ripened tomatoes!

KennyP ... your bathtub idea belongs under the heading of "You know you are tired of winter...when...."

BTW ... many thanks for all helpful ideas.

Hi Barb,

Ive meant a couple times to post hereÂand havenÂt gotten it done. This time I will!

First of all, I agree with almost all of the recommendations youÂve already gotten hereÂand enjoyed reading and laughed at many of the comments! Just not too sure about a bathtub full of manure in a bay window!!!

I agree with David, and I finally conceded the point this year, that when the temps get cold in late summer or early fall, the plants pretty much just stop developing. For years I covered and uncovered and covered and uncovered trying to give them "a little more time," but IÂve decided itÂs really not worth the effort. I leave them out as long as possible until weÂre getting freezing temps, and if we get a nite or two of anomalous freezing temps, when itÂs pretty certain itÂs gonna get warm for a while again, IÂll cover them, but when the temps are clearly getting cold every nite and staying fairly cool/cold during the day, I now call it quits!

I think youÂre far better off trying to "extend the season" in spring by starting them inside really early and gradually potting them up into gallonÂor biggerÂpots until itÂs warm enough to put them outside. To do that successfully, youÂd (your brother!) probably need to have a lite setup, and if he considers doing that, florescent lites work very well. If you hang them on chains, you can adjust them to keep them just a couple inches above the plantsÂwhich will keep them from getting all weirded out (a technical gardening term!), and the foliage can even grow up "into" the lites and it wonÂt be burned with florescent like it would be with incandescent gro-lites. So if he has a place to do that, he can be planting relatively large plants outside for a head start. If they start to bloom inside, they can easily be hand pollinated with a small (childÂs) paintbrush, and any tomatoes already on the plant should easily survive transplantation. Also, as David mentioned above somewhere, you want to bury as much stem as possible when you plant them outÂor even when youÂre transplanting them into larger and larger pots. Tomatoes are one of the few plants that will root all along the stem, so the more deeply you bury them the better root systems they develop and theyÂll be able to support the foliage and fruit better. When planting up to a bigger pot or outside, remove a few of the lower leaves and bury the plant all the way up to the lowest remaining leaves.

IÂve never used them, but know people who use and swear by Walls-O-Water. I bought some a couple years ago but just never got around to using them! My bad! But I really do believe they can work wellÂtho if he grows plants pretty big inside, they may already be too big to fit in a WOW.

I also agree that itÂs best to pretty much ignore comments about the flavor of different varieties. As near as I can tell by reading yearly reports around hereÂand from my own experienceÂthe flavor you get from the same variety can vary widely depending on the growing conditions in any particular yearÂand can also vary widely from location to location, a/k/a differing soil conditions. Pick some varieties that seem like they might do well in his area, and see how they work outÂand if theyÂre really, really good one year, donÂt be real surprised if theyÂre NOT really, really good the next year! Whatever you/he gets, home grown tomatoes are going to be SO much better than anything you can buy in a store, that the subtle differences arenÂt going to really make much difference!

One thing I think he might tryÂthat I donÂt think anybody else has recommendedÂis to grow some cherry tomatoes. In my experience you get ripe tomatoes much more quickly than with the big varieties, and most cherry tomatoes produce a LOT of tomatoes!

I also agree with DavidÂthis seems to be my nite to be agreeing with David!Âthat soil testingÂunless he seems to have some sort of a catastrophic conditionÂis pretty much a waste of time. As he said, the soil for most of us varies so much that you can test it in one corner (even in a small yard) and get completely different results in another corner. As has already been suggested, just keep adding more and more organic matter each year. Our soils are mostly some combination of clay/sand/gravel, and lots of organic matter will help any soil composed of those things. Then, if things arenÂt developing properlyÂfor reasons other than the coldÂpossibly a soil test in a particular area would be called for. But when it gets right down to it, most plants seem to be able to find what they need in the soil theyÂre planted in. IÂve been growing tomatoes for several years now in pretty heavy clay, and as long as I keep them well watered in the summer, they do ok. Soil testing at this point might just get him worrying about something he doesnÂt need to worry aboutÂand get him spending a lot of money "correcting" something that doesnÂt really need to be corrected.

One suggestion I do have for "extending the season" is in how you store the tomatoes when it finally does get "too" cold out. If he has a garage or out building (or possibly a basement) that stays cold but doesnÂt freeze the tomatoes can be cut down, still on the vine, and hung where they will ripen slowly over a couple months.

These are the few I grew this year hanging in the garage the day I cut them down. In November it got TOO cold outÂthey were going to freeze even in the garageÂso I cut them off the vines, put them in layers of newspaper in a styrofoam cooler "to keep them warm," and am still eating them.

When hung, all but the smallest, undeveloped ones will eventually ripen, and while they may not be quite as good at the ones that ripen outside, theyÂre still way, way better than store bought ones!

This is one plant from last year that was also hung sometime in September, but this pic was taken on November 11, and I was able to keep them "hanging" until they were gone.

And this is some of last yearÂs cherry tomatoesÂalso on November 11.

Here are a couple reference sites he might find interesting. The first is a Cornell site which gives you lists of tomatoes by different qualities. I have it set on the list that shows them by days to maturity, starting with the shortest season ones first (you need to scroll down past the ones marked "NA" which are varieties for which they donÂt have a DTM.) Down a little ways you get to Polar Gem which says itÂs 40-50 days. I didnÂt make up the list! DonÂt shoot the messenger!!! The first few are determinate, which I never grow! And I donÂt know anything about 99.9999999% of these varieties!

The second siteÂoriginally posted by JaliÂis a list of nine hundred and twenty seven kazillion different varieties where you can look up a bunch of information by variety name. When I first saw this list I almost fell over in a state of apoplexy! I never, in my wildest dreams, would have thought there were THAT many varieties of tomatoes!!! This listÂonce you get over the shock!Âalso gives you sources for seed of the various varieties.

Yeah, some of us might be mater challenged, but I donÂt know of anybody around here whoÂs gonna give up on trying to grow them. As a matter of fact I think the more mater challenged somebody is, the better they taste for the ones that do ripen all the way on the vine! No Fear! Never give up! Full speed ahead!

Kenny, maybe if growing stuff in your manure filled bathtub doesnÂt work, you could just add water and take a bath in it. Bet that hot man-your-ay would keep the water nice and warm!

You know youÂre tired of winter when...... youÂre out in the yard weeding in shortsÂand you suddenly realize itÂs snowing out!

IÂm SURE itÂll get warm out againÂsometime,
Skybird

Skybird ..... what a great font of tricks and techniques you are! I've been cooking and wrapping and cleaning all day and thought I was too tired to take a peek at this forum. SO GLAD I DID! Funny, I don't get this tired when digging or hauling soil or sifting mulch .... maybe because cleaning house is WORK and putzing in the garden is not. Anyway, your message is a wonderful treat ... I'll send it to my sister tomorrow as a Christmas gift.

Merry Christmas to all of you mountain men and gals. And BTW if you start to feel antsy about your cold weather ... I'll tell you as a native Californian that a population that triples every 30-40 years is a warm-weather trade-off. ..... well, that's a whole 'nother rant .... barb v.

So glad you joined us Skybird.
I try to keep a little humor in every thing to help out a long winter
A few added comment:
Soil testing is needed on large corn fields where the goal is 230 bu/acre instead of 180..with GPS to adjust to different spots. Most of us all ready know how bad our garden soil is.
Wall-o-waters work. I once had a wall o water freeze solid and the tomato plant inside was OK. Only thing is here in Colorado they blow over with the wind, YES! they blow over, I surly could use some help when filling them, what a wet mess.
I have once consider running a heat tape down a row, buried a couple of inches deep to warm the soil.
My personal likes with tomatoes, is it needs to be red and as large as possible.
Agree with the comment on taste. The worst taste, a real spitter for me, once was a purple cherokee, considerd one of the best. Maybe its roots found a lump of the afor mentioned manure.
My indoor tomatoes look good but just not producing. I shake them every morning, Guess I will get out a small brush and see if I can help with that. One bush beefsteak is ripe at 1.75 inches and 1 and 3/4 oz. Will eat it tomorrow. Doesn't take much to make and old man happy..a full stomach and good friends like i have here.
Have a good one, KennyP