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rosyjennifer

Cemetery roses

rosyjennifer
17 years ago

Hi. I've taken some photos of 4 roses growing in the Salem Lutheran Church c. 1850. I'd love you experts to take a look and see what you think... : )

If asked, you don't need to sign in at the Kodak gallery, they just want you to think that you do.

"Louisa Yeadaker" 1865

Once-blooming, medium pink, button eye, old rose fragrance, woodsy fragrance on buds, but no moss, numerous needle like thorns, it doesn't appear to sucker, 3 inch blooms

"Uebel Pink" - no date on headstone

light pink with unfading darker reverse, blooms in clusters and singly, fragrant of burnt sugar or corn syrup??? Very sweet but not fresh, rosy, spicy, tea-like or fruity. Nice, but unusual to my nose. Cupped, 3.5 inch, often nodding blooms, 35+ petals, purple new growth, average amt. of thorns

"Annie Maisel" 1953

Deep pinkish red buds, opening to slightly ruffled med. pink flowers that fade to flat, pale pink roses w/ @ 20 petals. Large flowered, @5 inches across, huge, dark green shiny leaves, light to little fragrance, one flower per per stem. The rose has been there awhile as the base is very thick and gnarled

"Salem Purple" this rose is growing around the entrance of the church, but on no grave sites.

Very deep saturated magenta purple 3 inch blooms, don't know if it repeats, fragrant of old rose, matte med green leaves that the bugs seem to love more than the other roses, very lightly suckering

I'd love any ideas or guesses!

Thanks,

Jennifer

Here is a link that might be useful: photos -- no need to give email to view

Comments (32)

  • cecilia_md7a
    17 years ago

    Wow, Jennifer - what a find! The "styles" of roses in the cemetery seem to run from the old-fashioned once-bloomers to the late-20th century HTs. I assume that this is the Old Salem Lutheran Cemetery in Catonsville, Maryland, right? So tea and noisette IDs are OK.

    Is "Ubel Pink" just our old pal Radiance? I don't grow it, so I can't compare, but the photos I've seen show a darker reverse. Actually, it looks like it could be something much more recent (a floribunda?), and the headstone appears to be newer. The darker reverse should be a giveaway, but I'm drawing a blank on pink floribundas.

    I think I'll post a link to this thread on the Antique Roses forum. Some of the OGR mavens there might not think to come here.

  • rosyjennifer
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Hi Cecilia.
    Yep, Salem Lutheran in Catonsville. : )

    The dreaded, impossible pink rose id...

    I thought "Uebel's Pink" might be Radiance, too. I have a baby band from Vintage w/ several buds so I can compare them soon. Foliage on the band is immature, so I need to wait there, too. The fragrance on "U's P" is very distinctive, so I think that will be the clincher also that the reverse doesn't fade is important to note, too.

    The trunks on "Uebel's pink" and "Annie Maisel" appear to be quite old because they are very thick and gnarled so I don't think either has been planted recently although "AM" does seem to be modern.

    I wish my photos could have better captured the delicacy of "Annie Maisel". My photos made her seem slightly garish, but really she was quite elegant.

    I thought about posting this on the Antique forum... not much action over here. : )

    Thanks for your reply!

  • matissesmom
    17 years ago

    Well, I'm here, but feel I've almost fallen down the proverbial rabbit hole, but like Alice, I'll enjoy the ride.

    The church is so beautiful and the flowers are, too. Is that first set possibly La Reine? or her type? I love that purpley one towards the end, or at the end.

    I hope you get some id's, but what a wonderful discovery.
    Sam

  • cecilia_md7a
    17 years ago

    Jennifer - when I talk about the rose (and headstone) being "newer," I mean mid-20th century on. After even 30 years, I would think that a rose's trunk would become gnarly. I know that was the case with the huge specimen of "The Fairy" that came with my house - I just broke that huge gnarly trunklike thing into pieces and ended up with about 5 plants!

  • rosyjennifer
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Cecilia - I love that in rose language "newer" can mean 30 years ago; makes me feel "newer", too. Yes, I also think the headstone appears newer and the trunks could easily be less than 20-30 years old. I left a message w/ the Historic Society for more info on the undated stone.

    As I've been keeping my eye open for Cook/found roses I am astounded by the amount of Dr. Huey I see. I mention this because it seems almost inevitable that it will take over a neglected rose. That Dr. huey has not done so here make me wonder if the roses planted are own-root and perhaps are from cuttings from mother's favorite rose. A Cook rose perhaps??

    Maybe "Uebel's Pink" is Radiance, taken from a garden that has some neglected Cook roses...just waiting to be discovered! Or... Annie Maisel died in 1953 at the age of 77. She could have known John Cook and grown his roses. Too bad the rose seems to be a more recent HT and not an earlier lost Cook rose, which was my hope as I waited for it to bloom.

    I need to get back to work and quit dreaming my little rose dreams. : )

    Guesses are welcomed from all!

  • cecilia_md7a
    17 years ago

    A closer look at the last photo in your gallery makes me think that Salem Purple might be a rugosa. There are quite a few fragrant purple ones. And they do tend to sucker. Usually they get quite a bit larger, but this one could have been weed-whacked or something, for all we know. Come to think of it, the true growth habits of all of them could be completely different from what you've photographed.

    Has the church/cemetery given you permission to take cuttings?

  • andrearose
    17 years ago

    I haven't looked at the pics yet, but the first one, "Louisa Y." could be a damask? The needle-like thorns suggested it.

    A

  • oath5
    17 years ago

    That last one looks like my Roserie de L'Hay!

  • seattlesuze
    17 years ago

    Louisa resembles Comte de Chambord. Looks very much like mine.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Comte de Chambord at HMF

  • aliska12000
    17 years ago

    Those are nice photos. I used the slideshow feature which I like. Sorry, but I don't know what any of the roses are. The link didn't work when I tried it earlier today, glad I got to see them.

  • cecilia_md7a
    17 years ago

    If Louisa is a once-bloomer, it's not Comte de Chambord. Jennifer, how do you know it doesn't rebloom? Did somebody at the cemetery say that?

    I referred to some of my rose books for more info on Radiance, to see if the descriptions match that of "Uebel's Pink." Liz Druitt's "The Organic Rose Garden" comes close:

    "This early Hybrid Tea is a terrific garden plant, one of those you can find in the same locations - cemeteries, yards in old neighborhoods - that you find Chinas and Teas. The globular buds open to deeply cupped semi-double flowers of silvery pink with a deep-rose reverse and a full measure of sweet Damask fragrance. The stems are sometimes a bit weak so the flowers tend to nod a little ..." She also says that it produces very large orange hips, so you might want to check for these later on. As far as the fragrance is concerned, I'm pretty familiar with what is called the Damask fragrance - it's my favorite scent of all the old roses. I've never thought of it smelling like corn syrup, though - I've always likened it to the smell of the candy lipsticks we used to buy when I was a kid.

    Re oath5's comment: Roseraie de L'Hay is one of the purple rugosas I mentioned earlier. There's also Hansa. I have a found rugosa from W. PA that is probably one of those two.

  • trospero
    17 years ago

    "Louisa Yeadaker" 1865: definitely a Gallica if it is under 4 feet tall. 5 feet or more and it might be 'Ville de Bruxelles', but I doubt it. (The foliage is wrong for 'Bruxelles') If the fragrance is more "spicy-herbal" then its a Gallica for sure. I suggest 'Ypsilante' as a possibility. Blooms 4" or so? Then thats a possibility, although there are many Gallicas that look like this floating around.

    "Uebel Pink" - no date on headstone : The suggestion of 'Radiance' is a possibility, yes.

    "Annie Maisel" 1953 : Almost 100% certain this is 'Queen Elizabeth'. The date of the headstone makes it fit and the bloom form, color and bud shape are exactly right for "Lizzie". Fragrance should be only slight and mostly notable only on newly opened blooms. No fragrance by day 2.

    "Salem Purple": A Gallica, absolutely no doubt. Not a Rugosa or any relation to the Rugosas. Which Gallica I do not know. Again, there are so many that look a lot like this. Bloom size is average for this class, so that feature gives no clues. It is definitely none of the commonly found varieties in commerce, although 'Conditorum' is a possibility. 'Conditorum' usually opens fully to show stamens, though, so I am not certain.

    Regards,
    Paul

  • rosyjennifer
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Thanks for all your replies. I know pink roses are the toughest to ID and my pics aren't great, so I do appreciate your efforts.

    Some more info:
    "Louisa Yeadaker" is visible from the road and all last year I watched for repeat bloom, checking around once a week, and I never saw any. I guess it could repeat if it wasn't under stress. I'm watering and feeding the roses this year so we'll see what happens. "LY" has a distinct eye, I can't tell if Compte de Chambord has one from the pics at HMF.

    Both Roseraie de L'Hay and Hansa's blooms look like rose #4. I'll have to get a better picture of the leaves. Both are tall growers, and these roses are only 2.5 feet tall, but maybe they were shorn at some point?

    I do think "Uebel's Pink" sounds like Radiance although there were no orange hips on it this winter/spring. There were black, shriveled ones, but no orange ones.

    Damask is my favorite scent, too but I always think of Damask fragrance as smelling like Gertrude Jekyll and "Ubel's Pink" does not have that fragrance. It could be damask plus something else and my nose is smelling the something else. I'll just have to wait for my Radiance to bloom so I can compare.

    No guesses on "Annie Maisel"? I'll try to get some closer/better pictures today.

    Thanks again!

  • rosyjennifer
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Thanks for your reply, Paul. I didn't see it until after I posted.

    The leaves of "LY" are rounded, but in photos of Ipsilante, the leaves seem more pointed. Both "Salem Purple" and "Louise Yeadaker" look like Gallica pictures in "Roses" by Phillips and Rix.

    I thought about "Annie Maisel" being "QE" but I ruled her out because I thought "QE" only bloomed in clusters, like a floribunda, and each of "Annie Maisel's" blooms are one to a stem. I checked HMF and saw that "QE" quite often blooms one to a stem. Many of the pictures do look like "Annie Maisel". I'll keep my eye out for cluster blooming. I think we have an ID here. : )

    If "Annie" is "QE" then the mystery rose in my yard with a tentative ID of "QE" is something else. I've posted photos here several times in years past, but never had a positive ID. I found the rose growing in weeds on my property. My house was built in 1946, but could have been planted at any time after that. Care to take a look at my mystery rose, Paul - and anyone else for that matter! : ) Thanks!

    Here is a link that might be useful: HMF

  • uofagirl
    17 years ago

    HI rosy,

    I'm Marilyn/Uofagirl. I haven't been on GardenWeb in about a year. I transplanted some roots of wild rambling roses from Railroad Property in NorthEast Ohio, Orrville, that hasn't been habitated since middle to late 1850's. I waited three years for these to bloom, and I went on GardenWeb to identify them and found your post. What a coincidence! These are my first roses and they smell soooo wonderful. Lets see if ours is the same! I believe they are antiques! PS. My roses are exactly 2" across and are single time bloomers. I do remember this because I go to the Woods/Railroad property with my husband and daughter to hike most weekends in the spring. I'd watched the roses for a year before I borrowed just a few small roots. Sorry if I offended anyone by coveting. I'm posting pics to the "NAME THAT PLANT" forum, because I don't have a link to my roses yet....

    My email to use is MN3@UAkron.edu I'll send you some pics of them.

    Thanks

    Marilyn

  • rosyjennifer
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Marilyn's rose really looks like "Louisa Yeadaker", flowers, buds, leaves and all.

    Let me see if I can make a link...

    Here is a link that might be useful: Marilyn's rose

  • uofagirl
    17 years ago

    My tallest is 4' 8" but they are in between 8 foot tall arbor vitae since I found them in dappled shade. They fall over at a height about 3 feet in the middle from having the flowers pull them down. But I twisty tied them to the arbor vitae...I compared flowers that were named in the previous post. Here's what I have:
    La Reine is thornless so its not that...

    Ypsilante is too short.

    Bruxelle is a shrub so no.

    How about Gallica Belle Isis?

    I think in the fall the leaves go red, but I'm not sure...

    Marilyn

    Oh and Comte's baby buds are different.

  • uofagirl
    17 years ago

    RosyJen,

    Where do I find a picture of Louisa Yeadaker? I can't find her?

  • rosyjennifer
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Uofagirl (I first thought you were ufo girl...) If you go to my original post and click on the link you should see a church. Scroll down a bit and you'll see pics to click. Or, you can go to the right and click slideshow and see all the roses.

    Hope that helps.

  • joan_m
    17 years ago

    Taking a fairly wild guess on Uebel Pink, you might try Duet, which is a florabunda. I don't grow it, but your plant sort-of looks like what I remember in a friends yard.

  • olga_6b
    17 years ago

    Louisa looks like Gallica or Damask to me. Definitely one of the Old European once-bloomers.
    Olga

  • cecilia_md7a
    17 years ago

    joan m - I too had thought about Duet, for Uebel Pink, because of the darker reverse. Duet isn't supposed to be very fragrant, though. I had assumed that because Jennifer was able to describe Uebel Pink's fragrance in such detail, that it was very strong. Is this the case, Jennifer?

    Helpmefind.com lists Duet as a Hybrid Tea, BTW.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Duet

  • playinmud
    17 years ago

    Hi Rosyjennifer and all, I can't believe I stumbled onto this post. My mother took a piece of her grandmother's rose and it is growing in her yard. My great-grandmother lived in western PA, was born in the 1870's. I've been trying to id it, its just like Louisa Yeadaker...I know this is an old rose. Its a single bloomer, about three feet tall, very fragrant, like rose scented toilet water. Here's are pics. PIM

    {{gwi:1220535}}

    {{gwi:1220536}}

  • rosyjennifer
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Hi all. Isn't the internet wonderful: connecting rose people from around the world? : )

    Playinmud, from what I can see, your rose looks like "Louise Yeadaker"!

    The photos of Duet on HMF don't look like the "Ubel's Pink", but photos elsewhere do. Regarding "Duet's" fragrance, several years ago while visiting gardens in CA, I made a notation in my journal which read, " Duet - fragrance YUCK." I remember nothing else about the rose aside from the fact that I detected an unpleasant smell. I don't find "Uebel's Pink" to be unpleasant, but must say, that chemical/burnt sweet smell could have caught me off-guard several years ago. Who knows?

    I'm at least a week from my first bloom of "Radiance." One sniff and we'll be able to ID "UP" as "Radiance", or not.

    Thanks again for your help.
    Jen.

  • uofagirl
    17 years ago

    Jen,

    I thought Louisa Yeadaker was a patented rose!!!! OMG, you were naming the unnamed roses after the headstone names... NO wonder I couldn't find the cultivar anywhere! If they aren't Belle Isis roses than maybe some damask or gallica for sure...

    PlayInMud,
    beautiful pics! They do smell like rose eu de toilet water. I can smell them now! How cool!

  • luanne
    17 years ago

    Some Radiance roses:
    {{gwi:1220537}}
    Mrs. Charles Bell, the blush sport
    {{gwi:1220538}}
    Red Radiance
    {{gwi:1220539}}
    Careless Love
    {{gwi:1220540}}
    one last RR.I think the bush style is very similar, it repeats all season and has a lovely deep rose and berry scent to my nose.
    la

  • rosyjennifer
    Original Author
    17 years ago

    Well, my Radiance bloomed and I am almost certain it is not "Uebel's Pink". The color of Radiance is darker than "U.P." although both have darker reverses, Radiance's fragrance is lighter and cooler than the rich fragrance of "UP" and Radiance's petal count is less than Uebel's Pink. I said "almost certain" vs 100% certain because I know first blooms can differ from later blooms. I'll wait and see.

    Thanks for the Radiance family pictures, Luanne, they are lovely!

    uofagirl, Sorry for the confusion about "LY's" name. I thought you couldn't access my link's pictures. :)

    Still thinking...

  • heikerose
    17 years ago

    Hello,

    Uebel Pink looks like Mme Caroline Testout or La France. I had a friend who's maiden name was Uebel, I'm sure she did not know to have ancestor int the U.S !

  • buffbeauty
    16 years ago

    The last rose reminds me of Charles de Mills.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Charles de Mills

  • olga_6b
    16 years ago

    The last is definitely Gallica, but NOT Charles de Mills. I grow many different gallicas and I am in MD. So if you want I can try to identify them in spring when they are in bloom.
    Olga

  • theroselvr
    16 years ago

    Last rose is not Roserie de L'Hay. Grows totally wrong to be her.

    It reminds me of Sophys Rose or Rose de Rescht which might fit as HMF says this:
    Damask, Portland, Shrub.
    Bred (before 1900)
    Deep pink [dp], Purple-red blooms. Moderate, strong, damask fragrance. Average diameter 2.5". Double (17-25 petals) bloom form. Continuous (perpetual) bloom throughout the season, Spring/Summer flush with scattered later bloom.
    Habit: Compact, dense, suckers on its own roots growth habit.
    Height of 36" to 4' (90 to 120 cm). Width of up to 30". (up to 75 cm).

    You also have to take into account that relatives may be taking care of these roses and that although the stones are old, the roses may not be. My hubby's grandpa's grave will end up getting a redo as soon as we have time.

    Do you have any newer photos?

  • countrygirlsc, Upstate SC
    15 years ago

    I bought a mislabeled rose that was supposed to be Honey Bouquet but the blooms were light pink with a dark pink/red reverse. At first I thought it was Duet. I eventually discovered it was Aloha, which is climber but I keep mine cut back as a shrub rose. Very fragrant. I don't have any photos on this computer, but check out help me find

    http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=153&tab=1

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