Considering
(1) the bloom-color in your photos
(2) the bloom-form
(3) "strong" petal-quilling
(4) strong fragrance
(5) leaf-color
and *especially* (6), the thin-stemmed "nodding" blooms,
my guess is Mirandy.

Regards,
JohnReb

my guess is your right having looked at some shots of Mirandy

Patricia has been growing Papa Meilland for awhile. Perhaps she will see this and offer an opinion.

JohnReb, can you specify the differences among Papa Meilland, Oklahoma, and Mirandy? I'm not sure I can tell them apart.

Rosetom, please pardon the delay in replying. Sunday was my marital Anniversery, so I had very little time for GardenWeb reading & posting. ;-)

You asked me to to "specify the differences among Papa Meilland, Oklahoma, and Mirandy."

I don't grow Papa Meilland - unless it is one of my 3 remaining unidentified mis-labeled bodybag mystery red roses. So, what I know about Papa is just from reading about it. But I do grow both Mirandy and Oklahoma in my yard, and therefore can give you my "eyeball" observations about their respective blooms.

In this year's uncommon weather-conditions, I too have a lot of difficulty in distinguishing between Oklahoma and Mirandy blooms. I've never previously seen their blooms look SO much alike. Ordinarily, Mirandy's blooms are garnet-red (which I have sometimes called a "wine-red") ...and Oklahoma's blooms are more in the classic "dark-red" color-category.

But in this year's uncommonly very-hot transition from quite-cool Spring weather (at least in zone 7 Virginia), to distinguish between Oklahoma and Mirandy blooms, I've had to rely almost entirely on genetically-set characteristics. In this case, I'm referring to Bloom-Form. Mirandy's blooms have "globular" form - and its blooms tend to keep that form as they open further and further.

Also, Mirandy's fully-opened appearnce is "looser" than Oklahoma - which tends to remain much more uniform as it opens to the final stage.

Furthermore, Mirandy's fully-opened bloom tends to contain a multitude of hues ...and Oklahoma's tends to stay comparatively single-colored.

A rose's "Cut-flower Behavior" is an area of rose-ID characteristics that doesn't seem to get much attention in this forum.

As a cut-flower, Oklahoma's petals reflex strongly. Three other roses which behave that way distinctively - AS A CUT-FLOWER - are Electron, Bob Hope. and Fragrant Cloud. Their bloom-form as a fully-opened cut-flower is noticeably different from the form that results if the bloom is left on the bush. My point is, as a cut-flower, Mirandy's petals do not reflex nearly as strongly as Oklahoma's do.

So, if your rosegarden contains both Oklahoma and Mirandy, you can do an on-the-bush comparison of their bloom-form ...and also compare their respective behavior as cut-flowers.

In summary...
(1) On-the-bush: Mirandy's form stays more globular, and Mirandy's petal-arrangement becomes looser (less "well-ordered") than Oklahoma's. Also, Mirandy's bloom becomes more "multi-hued" as it ages than Oklahoma's does.
(2) As a cut-flower: Oklahoma's petals reflex much more than Oklahoma's.

Please test this info and let me know whether the results you get are the same as mine - or not. : )

Regards,
JohnReb

JohnReb, thank you for posting a reply. I hope we are not hijacking LaBrea's thread, but it seems on point. I have a "mystery red" - typical bodybag Walmart special labeled Angel Face (what a laugh!).

In my mind it goes back and forth each year from a "mystery" to a "definite." Depending on my frame of mind, I guess, it's either Oklahoma or Mirandy. Huge blooms, 50+ petals, almost black buds, incomparable scent, color tending toward wine and then purple under cool or hot conditions. Sometimes nods, sometimes not.

I see pics of Oklahoma, especially of the shiny petal backs, and the form, and I think no question, that's it. Then I see descriptions such as in this thread - nodding necks, non-descript, plain bush, and I think Mirandy - but the nodding is very inconsistent. This sounds like bragging, but vigor and height qualities are unreliable indicators in my garden - everything gets to 7-8 ft or more.

If I had to pick one quality that I don't see described much it would be the petal form when a petal reflexes - but before it's completely open or spent - large arrowheads.

If this helps any ... my two Mirandy bushes produce blooms which "nod" often enough that they don't escape my notice. (ESPECIALLY when raindrops weigh down the blooms.) On the other hand, my two Oklahoma bushes' production of nodding blooms is "infrequent" in comparison to Mirandy's frequency.

I should mention that my roses are planted in long rows along my yard's property-lines ...and a neighbor's weed-whacker seriously damaged the canes of my only Oklahoma bush that came with a metal ID-tag. So I'm reduced to a VERY small number of 100%-certain Oklahoma blooms for "real-life" examination this summer. :-/

I think I know exactly the shape you mean when you say "arrowheads." It's a petal with two quill-points on it, instead of one. You're right, not many roses do *that*. The shape is kinda like the back-end of a (real) Native-American (or Neolithic) stone arrowhead.

For what it's worth... one particular characteristic you mentioned about your mystery-red (in combination with the other characteristics you mentioned) makes me feel pretty certain you've got an Oklahoma. You said "almost black buds." That's a characteristic of Oklahoma, but not for Mirandy (mine's buds are dark purple-red).

Oh... this is just my opinion... but since LaBrea seems satisfied that he has found his mystery-rose's identity, it's probably okay with him for this thread to diverge into a "related subject." LaBrea, would you prefer this conversation (if it continues) to be moved into a new thread?

Regards,
JohnReb

It sounds like I definitely have Oklahoma. Tell you what: to be polite, I'll post this as a separate thread.

Looks like papa meiland to me