Return to the Name That Rose Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Posted by Gerry_WyomingPA z5 NEPA (nepagardenguy@aol.com) on
Tue, Jun 7, 05 at 20:21

This is a rose in my neighbors yard, her daughter said it is about 60 years old, but I don't know. I do not detect much scent at all, but that could just be me.

Any Ideas?

Image hosted by Photobucket.comFull bush

Image hosted by Photobucket.comStems, thorns and leaves

Image hosted by Photobucket.com Close up...reverse of petals is darker

Thank you for any information!

Gerry


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

  • Posted by LizzieA z9 CA Sunset 17 (My Page) on
    Tue, Jun 7, 05 at 21:17

It looks like it's got a darker reverse. I did a search on HelpMeFind for darker reverse (see below). Check out "Duet" but it's not as old, maybe 45 years.

Here is a link that might be useful: HelpMeFind darker reverse


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

I will have to talk to the lady that lives here, she would probably know an age better than her daughter, but that does look like it.

Thanks,

Gerry


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

That rose looks exactly like my mystery rose!! The petals that roll back, the wide spacing between the leaves, the nodding blooms, the red new growth and the darker reverse. The fragrance is often of black pepper, but then I'll smell very faint tea at times and often it has no fragrance.

I have posted pictures of the rose on this forum on and off for several years. I always get "Duet" but I've seen and smelled Duet and Duet is not my rose.

I have a very tentative ID as "Le Vesuve". The rose is from 1825, which is a bit odd, especially since my home was built in the 1940's (like your neighbor's!). But many of the homes in my town are older than 200 years so the rose could have easily been rustled and rooted.

There are pictures of Le Vesuve at Help me find. I've linked pictures to my bush below.

Or maybe it is a now extinct rose released in the 1940's?

Hope this helps!

You do not need to sign in at the photo website!! They just want you to... Just click the photos/slide.

Here is a link that might be useful: Le Vesuve - don't sign in - click photos


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Hi folks. Rosyjennifer suggested I join this thread, because I have a mystery-rose that looks very much like Gerry's photo #3 in this thread. Shot #3 is the EXACT color (even including the darker petal-reverse) of my rose's blooms ...at that particular stage of opening.

But because mine has many more petals than Gerry's, "taken as a whole" mine's blooms actually appear more like Rosyjennifer's at the photo website. My rose also has the "nodding blooms," and red new growth. It almost always blooms in singles - indicating it is a Hybrid-Tea. During the "about" 10 years since I planted it, it has reached as much as 7 feet in height.

But there is an important difference between mine and either Gerry's or Rosejennifer's. Mine has really strong fragrance. The blooms tend to have somewhere between 55 and 75 petals - sometimes even more. When the blooms reach the end of their lifespan, they "shatter" (almost all the petals fall off at once) ...ESPECIALLY if they were cut off the bush for a vase.

Gerry and Roseyjennifer, does any part of the description I've given sound like your rose?

It is not my intention to hijack the original rose-poster's thread. So I will post a photo of my mystery-rose in a separate new thread.

Thanks for the referral, Rosyjennifer. : )

Regards to both you and Gerry,
JohnReb <>< zone 7, Richmond VA


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Hi JohnReb and Gerry.

I'm looking at spent roses on my mystery rose and they remain on the plant instead of shattering. We've had an unusual amount of rain so perhaps the roses were spoiled prematurely and are not following the normal bloom cycle...?

I've read different descriptions of Le Vesuve and some say the fragrance is very strong and some say there is no fragrance at all. Perhaps my nose is spoiled from all my Austins and OGR's, but my rose detects very little fragrance.

The vase life is nothing like modern HT's or florist roses, but it will last a day or two.

I can't give you a petal count because all the roses are shot now but there are buds that are a week or two from blooming. I'm pretty sure my rose has around 30 petals, though. so our roses would not be the same. Also my rose blooms singly and in clusters of 2, 3 or 4 flowers unlike your rose.

I've attached a very interesting discussion of a mystery rose that the owner thinks is Le Vesuve. I think the rose is a climbing sport of Le Vesuve, though. This link may help you ID your rose, Gerry because the info is very detailed.

Hope this helps!
Jennifer - Maryland - zone 6/7

Here is a link that might be useful: Mystery rose discussion


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

I will try to chheck out 'my' found rose again tomorrow...I just needed to check in and let you know I have not lost track, just short of time.

Gerry


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Rosyjennifer, if your found rose really is Le Vesuve, it's probably not the same rose as Gerry's. I don't think Le Vesuve would be hardy in Zone 5.


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

PA has areas in zone 5? I know there are micro climates everywhere and there are mountains in PA, but zone 5 is pretty cold for PA... : )

I am outside of Baltimore too and we are zone 6ish/7 here. I had Mrs BR Cant that was hardy in zone 7-10 and she died all the way to the ground every winter. (She happily lives w/ my sis in Charleston now). In the 6 years since I've lived here, this rose has had no winter dieback at all.

Again, it may not be Le Vesuve, but it sure looks like Gerry's rose.


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

As the pictures show, this one blooms in singles and in smaller, loose groups. The petals fall free from the plant.

As for a zone here, I have 5/6 because that is the majority of the PA area, but I feel more like a 6/7 most years, as I am in a valley and have not had temps in my immideate area below zero in the 4 years I have been here, and have had several 'out of zone' plants survive.

As the plot thickens, I have found out, to the best of her memory, this rose was in place when she moved in in the mid/late 40's and has survived on nothing but an annual pruning. It is on a south/east facing wall so it gets alot if sun, and the benefit of winter heating from the foundation, so perhaps it is a tea.

Gerry


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Jennifer, my in-laws are from Somerset, PA, located on the highest point in PA, and it's a Zone 5b. Some of the northeastern parts of the state - I assume near where Gerry lives - are even colder (Zone 5a). As a Marylander, I tend to forget that a lot of states are MUCH larger than ours and have a wider variety of climates.

OK, so Gerry's rose dates back at least to the 1940s. I wonder if the original owners placed that rose against a warm wall and coddled it all these years because it WAS a tender tea?

BTW, Jennifer - Where do you live? Bawlmer County? Which side, Hon? I'm on the SW (warm) side of the city.


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Interesting, Gerry. I'm sure that my rose has been here since the 40's too.

An aside, this rose is the first (and really only) rose in my garden that gets powdery mildew. Nothing too bad, just powdery stems and buds.

There is a very old stone cemetery nearby that has a rose planted on a grave site and it looks like my/your rose. I'll go by and check it out and take some pictures.

Cecilia - Hey Hon! I'm in Bawlmer county - Catonsville to be 'zact. Where are you?


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

the dates don't jive, but check out the link

Here is a link that might be useful: maybe?


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Gerry, that really looks like it but the description says "resistant to mildew" and my rose gets mildew every spring. It also says "very fragrant" and mine is not.

Hmmmm....


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Jennifer - I'm right downa rade (down the road) from you - in Lansdowne. Do you know Cynthia W or Janet M from the GW boards? They live in Catonsville, too.

Oops, didn't mean to hijack the thread. I've got several books and catalogs of roses from the early 1900s through the 1940s at home (I'm writing this at work, as I haven't got a home computer at the moment). I will look through the photos in these publications and see if there are any similarities. One promising source is the group of Dingee & Conard catalogs I have - D&C was located outside of Philadelphia (Zone 6), but they raised and sold a large group of own-root teas, claiming that this made them hardier.


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Jennifer,

Not sure of the mildew factor, but I know the smell can vary from climate to climate and person to person, my SO and I have different opinions on the same rose almost everytime.

I am going to try asking in the Antique Rose Forum and see if we can get anymore help.

Gerry


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Has anyone tried Queen Elizabeth? I can't tell how big this rose is, and she's from 1956, so maybe not? I have her, but I just transplanted her and haven't seen a bloom, but the bush reminds me of pics I've seen of her and of the one I have outside. She has little to no scent either....just a thought.

Stef


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

  • Posted by Jean Zone 7/TN (My Page) on
    Thu, Jun 16, 05 at 23:53

Jennifer -

If your rose looks exactly like this one, it's not Le Vesuve. Le Vesuve is not a rose that holds its blooms upright. This is Le Vesuve:

and

One of the dead giveaways is the maroon colored new foliage and canes and the darker pink veining on the petals. Very china type growth, twiggy and delicate.

From the picture above, given the growth habit as upright and vase shaped, I'd say it's a hybrid tea.

Jean


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

I have a Not Blue Girl from J&P that looks like the mystery rose of this thread, but I have been calling her Queen Elizabeth. The photos of QE on HMF are quite varied, but many resemble my rose, which tends to have a darker reverse, blooms singly or in loose groups of 2,3, or 4. Mine gets fungus, doesn't care, has thick petals, purple new growth, and gets 6-7 ft tall and needs to be pruned back at that point. Also not meaning to hijack - just thanking everyone for the information that I am finding helpful. =)


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Thank you for posting you pictures, Jean. I've attached the link to my mystery rose below. Does it look like your rose?

I looked at the pics at HMF of Queen Elizabeth and some do look like my rose. But the blooms on my rose nod and QE's look upright. My roses's new growth is purple and the growth is twiggy, but I don't recall my flowers having the veining that your photo of Le Vesuve has.

I read that QE has 38 petals and levesuve has 22-28, if that helps anyone ID their rose. Mine have no blooms, so I'll have to wait to count.

QE makes more sense because it is a more commonly found rose.

Thanks all for your info - and sorry too about the hijack - I try not to start new threads if a topic is being discussed in another thread - I don't want to bump anyone off the forum...

Here is a link that might be useful: don't sign in, just click slide to view photos


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

  • Posted by Jean Zone 7/TN (My Page) on
    Fri, Jun 17, 05 at 9:30

Jennifer -

I am almost certain you are not growing Le Vesuve. The growth habit of the plant is too upright and the new canes visible in your picture are just too stout. This rose really is a china and it really behaves like one - lots of tiny, delicate and twiggy canes. Whatever you are growing, it is definitely a hybrid tea and probably an early one.

Jean


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Thanks so much Jean! I'm going to keep looking into QE and see if that is my rose.

Gerry, I'm pretty sure our rose is the same rose. If I find out anything that I think is a positive ID, I'll post back.

Cecilia - I did not know that there were garden webbers from Catonsville! I've spent most of the past 2 years on the kitchen forum during my remodel. I'm finished my remodel and thankfully can now talk about roses instead of faucets. : )


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

It looks just like my QE.

Ginni


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

If not Duet, how about Pink Parfait. From 1960. Or, to go further back, a very old hybrid tea, Betty Uprichard. it too has the light pink upper petal and darker pink reverse.


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Check out Lady Mary Fitzwilliam on helpmefind(the 2nd and 3rd pics are NOT her.)
Also check out Mrs.Wakefield Christie Miller-for a lot of years these two roses were interchangeable.
They are both very old hybrid teas-more inclined to the tea side.
The only other one I can think of is Mme Abel Chatenay.She has the same colouring.
regards
sandie


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

sandie,
Lady Mary fitzwilliam really looks like her in some pics, but the fragrance is listed as strong, and in my climate I can barely detect a fragrance, mostly a mild pepper fragrance in the am on mine. Thanks for the info!


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

I find it difficult to detect a perfume on my LMF also.
regards
sandie


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Listen to Jean. It is definitely a Hybrid Tea. However, it is not Queen Elizabeth (a GF, anyway).

You know ... I try to go for the easy answers ... especially when it's an abandoned or inherited rose that's been around for awhile. Something like Miss AAB, Electron, Mirandy, Peace, Crimson Glory, etc.

About 65 years ago (1940) a pink Hybrid Tea was introduced that proceeded to make history as one of the two or three most influential roses of the 20th Century:
Charlotte Armstrong


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

P.S. The darker petal reverse is the clincher. (I think - don't have one, but wish I did.)


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

No, not Charlotte Armstrong which I remember well and is a darker pink. I still think maybe Betty Uprichard - very famous rose in its day (introduced 1922). Or how about Radiance, a real toughie.
Definitely NOT Queen Elizabeth - wrong shape, wrong color. And not La Vesuve either. Blossomtime has more petals.


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Blossomtime has wich blood, the mystery plant here has no shiny leaves. I am sure no expert on teas, but have looked at teas and chinas in Fla when we go to visit my folks. What I notice about the photos above is that the stems to the flowers are quite long and slender. The flowers do tend to droop, and would droop even more if they didn't have so few petals. The slender drooping flower stems are traits that the HT breeders worked hard to get rid of. I have to agree with Jean that there's none of the twigs sprouting every which way look of a china. But I am very suspicious that this plant has a LOT of tea in it. I get the feeling from photo 1, feels like the plants I've seen in Fla, but photo 2 is more specific. Ann says that a tea changes direction at every leaf node, giving a zigzag effect. You can clearly see that in photo 2. I can tell you that this plant has no wichurana and no multiflora in it. It's nothing modern. It has none of the little prickly stuff you find on many of the European roses. It's either a tea, or it's a very early HT, back before they got the strong upright flower stems. Ann says that the gawky upright look of the whole HT plant is directly due to the breeding for a strong upright flower stem. In losing the droopy flowers, they lost the charm of the whole bush. This mystery rose has that charming, delicate look that I remember from the teas and chinas in Fla. And it is true that some older teas that have never been exposed to mosaic virus, on their own roots, could do quite well in Z5, despite the occasional freezing to the ground. I note this bush is not a monster, which many hardy roses would be given it's age. Donna


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Interesting comments!

My rose really looks like Lady Mary Fitzwilliam, Mrs. Wakefield Christie-Miller AND Betty Uprichard!!

An interesting tidbit... I was looking at color plates in the "Old Rose Adventurer" and saw a picture that looked a lot like my rose called "My Maryland" (I live in Baltimore, MD!) bred by John Cook of Baltimore in 1908 (hybridizer of Radiance) and his home and nursery were about 1 mile from my home. My Maryland is "extinct" and there is little information on it but perhaps that is my rose?

I've some old (pre 1940) rose books being transferred from an old library in Baltimore, perhaps I'll get some ID info in there.

I've added a few more photos with the last being the flower fully open. You don't need to "sign in" to see the photos, just click the photo to view.

Thanks again!
Jennifer

Here is a link that might be useful: Don't sign in! Just click on the photo


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Jennifer -

Ah, yes - the elusive My Maryland ... I've fantasized about rediscovering that one ever since I got into antique roses.

I own some old rose books and catalogs that have photos or drawings of MM - I have to remember to bring them into work where I can scan them for you to compare your rose to.

But MM is supposed to have a strong fragrance and you said yours wasn't very fragrant.

Now you've got me thinking ... there is a large, fragrant pink shrub growing next to an early 20th century house in my neighborhood. The place was unoccupied for a while and during that time I unsuccessfully tried to root some cuttings of it. I should get up the courage to knock on the door and ask the owner whether I can get some more cuttings. Perhaps if I wait til spring I can offer to trim the bush. Maybe THAT one will end up being My Maryland!


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Cecelia - We need to hook up! : )

Have you tried to find any other John Cook roses? Of his 24 or so roses it seems like Radiance and her sports and Enchantress(e) at ARE are the only ones not "extinct". I made DH drive while I peered in yards and weeds where John Cook lived and where he supposedly landscaped the yards of some of the big, old homes in Baltimore hoping to discover some of his roses, but all I got was depressed. : )

Linked below is a bit of info about a garden planted with John Cook's roses in 1941 which was later moved to Druid Hill, Balt. in 1989. There are gardens planted by the zoo in Druid Hill but the woman I spoke with said all the Cook roses died and they just have a few OGR's there now. Sad.

Regarding fragrance... Lady Mary Fitzwilliam, Mrs. Wakefield Christie-Miller and Betty Uprichard all are supposedly fragrant. I smelled my rose the other day and there is a fragrance, but it is light and perhaps a bit sweet, but most often it smells of black pepper. My nose is used to smelling roses known for their fragrance so perhaps I'm expecting too much.

Good luck getting cuttings from the old rose, I'd love to see some pics of it.

Here is a link that might be useful: John Cook info


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Jennifer - Someone else on one of these forums did a bunch of research on John Cook's roses and came up emptyhanded. I think they got in touch with the folks at "Droodle Park" and (don't quote me because I'm not sure this is accurate) found that Sean McCann's info on the Cook rose garden was incorrect, and such a garden never existed there. I don't remember the details - Once again, I'll have to check my files at home. It's tough being without a home computer. Ours got fried in an electrical storm last year (yes, we did have a surge protector), and DH and I still haven't replaced it.


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

I've got a new Lady Mary Fitzwilliam in the garden, added this year.

Your rose does remind me of it...

Even though LMF is said to be fragrant, I detected practically no scent.

I'll have to go outside and check the foliage on it.


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Your rose looks very much like an old hybrid tea Pink Radiance. There also is a Red Radiance. My mother grew both back in the 1940's and I have one of each that I've had for 40 years. Mine do have a pleasant "rose" scent, though.


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Ditto what talisman said... that's the first thing I thought when I saw that picture.


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose called a blue rose

I was looking on ebay and this person in Turkey is selling blue rose seeds. Since I have never heard of a real blue rose, I am thinking that this person is selling a hoax. The web address for this so called blue rose is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:77&item=250009457936&id=

I read the feed back for this person in Turkey, and saw he/she was has previously sold antiquites items, saying they were from 500 bc and the person who bought them gave a feed back as phoney and the seller was a theif.

Obviously if there is no such thing as a true blue rose, this person is is charging $1.00 and selling 1065 packages of 10 blue rose seeds.

Here is a link that might be useful: ebays blue rose seeds


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

Windowboxgrower, the normal procedure here is to post your own question separately. Please look at the bottom of the main "Find That Rose" page and type in your question there so that it will be noticed, read and answered more quickly. Rose seeds, except for wild species varieties, will not grow into the same rose bushes as the parent plant. Even if they did, that eBay seller's photo is fake. No true blue roses are available at any price, the closest being purple/indigo.

Gerry, I can't see the photos you posted, just a message saying they are no longer available, but I put a link below to the HelpMeFind photos for 'Pink Radiance' that was suggested (click on Main for more information):

Here is a link that might be useful: Pink Radiance


 o
RE: Can you ID this found rose 1 of 3 (large files)

It has been awhile but I thought I'd post an update... I ordered Pink Radiance and my rose it is not. (Radiance is a fantastic, fragrant, clean rose, btw.) The color, fragrance and form are completely different.

My next step is to order Mrs. Wakefield Christie Miller and Lady Mary Fitzwilliam and compare them to my rose.

Supposedly LMF was very puny and weak and my rose is about 4 feet tall which is not what I'd consider to be puny, so I'm still guessing.

Any other ideas? : )


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Name That Rose Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here