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redsnowflake

Unknown Red... please help ID

redsnowflake
16 years ago

My sister brought this red rose bush to me last fall. She knew nothing about it, and therefore I know nothing about it, other than what I have personally witnessed. It has a faint, but sweet smell. Fairly long vase life. Fully open buds are around 4 or 5 inches (haven't actually measured). It was fairly small last fall. Not unhealthy looking, just small canes. I thought it would be a petite bush, but it has proven me wrong. It has had several canes shoot up, pretty much overnight in most cases, that are 4, 5, and over 6 feet tall. When it first did this, I thought it might be grafted, and perhaps the thicker and taller canes were from the rootstock; however, the blooms and foliage are identical on last year's smaller growth and this years comparably huge growth. It blooms in clusters on the end of the canes: usually anywhere from 4-7 or more blooms to a cluster. Here are several pics of it from earlier this year:

Thanks in advance to anyone who might have any idea what this beautiful rose is called! :)

Comments (24)

  • redsnowflake
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Also, forgot to mention: since it's first bloom started to open in late May (first pic), it has been in constant bloom ever since and currently shows no signs of slowing down.

  • petaloid
    16 years ago

    It could be Mister Lincoln, a fragrant, deep-red hybrid tea rose which has been one of the most beloved varieties since its introduction in the '60s. I'll put a link to the HelpMeFind listing -- click on the "photos" tab to see lots of pictures:

    Here is a link that might be useful: Mister Lincoln

  • redsnowflake
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    I believe you have solved the mystery for me! Judging by the multitude of photos, I'd say that it is indeed a 'Mister Lincoln'. Thank you so very much! :)

  • petaloid
    16 years ago

    You are welcome!

  • michaelg
    16 years ago

    Well, except that Mister Lincoln is extremely fragrant.

  • redsnowflake
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Yeah, that and I read that Mr. Lincoln usually has single blooms per stalk, making an excellent cut flower. Mine blooms in clusters. :( So, the mystery continues...

    As for fragrance, I'm not really familiar with roses, but I'd consider mine to be faintly fragrant. Maybe moderately. You can smell it once you're within about 3 or 4 feet of it, but it is definitely not a strong fragrance.

    I think it may be related to Mr. Lincoln. I'd never noticed this until today, but (at least) one of the blooms does have the small dash of white that I saw in many of the Mr. Lincoln photos.

    I'll take more pics tomorrow. Also, I'm planning to take a bloom and count the petals.

    Thanks again to those assisting me with this ID.

  • diane_nj 6b/7a
    16 years ago

    Don't just go by the "single bloom per stem" info that you read about hybrid teas. Many hybrid teas can and do have multiple blooms per stem. Sometimes weather related sometimes just because. And fragrance can be relative, what is very fragrant to some people is barely fragrant to others. Have a few other people smell it and tell you what they think. Oh, and if you can start smelling it in 3 - 4 feet, then I would call it "very fragrant", just my opinion. I think you have Mr. Lincoln.

  • redsnowflake
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    LOL. Just goes to show how very little I know about roses. :)

    I've been driving myself insane looking on the HelpMeFind website. I have probably looked at well over 100 different roses, and honestly, while some of them looked similar to what I have, none of them was as dead-on as the photos I saw of Mr. Lincoln.

    And as for single vs cluster blooms, when it first began blooming in May, it had more single blooms. It's only been more recently, since it's been warmer, that it only blooms in clusters. Is this normal? Warmer temperatures causing it to bloom in clusters?

    Once again, thank you to all who are helping.

  • redsnowflake
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Below are some additional photos I took this morning. I'd just like to make sure that the general consensus is still that this is Mr. Lincoln.


    Overall bush. Just wanted to show the crazy basal(?) shoots it has thrown up this year. The one on the left is roughly 5' tall with the one on the right being probably a little over 6' tall. My husband keeps saying that it's competitive like me - it's trying to outgrow the crepe myrtle. LOL.





    I wanted to show how it is blooming in clusters(?) rather than single blooms. And in the last photo, you can see on the far left how the bloom has started to fade. They get pretty ugly after they start to fade, so I've been dead-heading religiously. In no time after I cut off a spent bloom, it starts putting on new growth.


    Speaking of new growth, here is a pic of what it looks like.


    Just a bud pic for reference.




    It has some of the most gorgeous blooms, IMHO. I haven't cut any for a vase since it first bloomed in late May, but at that time even though the blooms were lovely and had what I'd consider a good vase life, they were the world's worse about drooping. Not the leaves or petals, but the bloom itself on the stalk. Like it was hanging it's head in shame. :(

    Also, I counted the petals on a couple of blooms yesterday and came to the conclusion that it has roughly 30 petals per bloom. Although, it may actually be a little higher, because those were blooms that were a little past their prime, and as such may have dropped a few petals. Or maybe not. I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think they had. I just couldn't bring myself to destroy a bloom in it's prime.

    Well, I suppose that's all for now. ;)

  • altorama Ray
    16 years ago

    Have you considered that it may be a climber?
    It looks & sounds very similar to a rose I have
    called 'Jazz'-faint fragrance, cluster & single
    bloom, new foliage dark red, but especially the
    part about it throwing up new canes which seem to
    grow inches a day.
    I have some pics on HMF, here is the link.
    alida

    Here is a link that might be useful: Jazz (poulsen's)at HMF

  • rainbow_2007
    16 years ago

    Don Juan - a climber

  • redsnowflake
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    I don't think it's a climber, as many of the main canes are bigger around than my thumb. And they are that big when they first come up. That's another thing - it's not inches a day - I'm talking about a 3 or 4 foot stalk will come out of nowhere, literally overnight. It truly shocked me the very first time it happened.

    One last thing - I'd said that I could smell it about 3-4 feet away. Well, it is planted next to one of my crepe myrtles, and I've figured out that it is the crepe myrtle I'm smelling when I first approach. Not the rose. Or maybe it's a combination of the two. They smell very similar - a nice sweet smell. Only way I can describe it.

    I don't know that I'll ever know for certain what it is - but thank you to those trying to help. No matter what it is, it sure is beautiful!

  • buford
    16 years ago

    I don't think it's either Mister Lincoln or Don Juan. The bush form is wrong for Mr. Lincoln. Mr. Lincoln is upright and the canes get very tall, up to 7 feet. And, at least in my yard, the blooms are more of a bluish red. And the scent is unmistakeable.

    Ditto Don Juan, has a very strong scent and the bloom form is different.

  • petaloid
    16 years ago

    If Mister Lincoln is grown on its own roots the plant is bushier and fuller. My friend has one like that, of which I am envious. On another thread redsnowflake said she couldn't locate a bud union for this plant, which makes me think it may be an own-root plant.

    I have the grafted, leggy version and wish mine were on its own roots. (I love it anyway!)

  • redsnowflake
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    That's the really odd thing about this rosebush - it's form. When it first bloomed, it was on last year's growth and mostly (if not all) in single blooms. Last year's growth is rather short, bushy, with much thinner canes.

    More recently however, it has put on growth that shoots straight up 4, 5, and over 6 feet in the air on stalks that are incredibly thick. The blooms on this newer growth are in clusters.

    This led me to believe it might be grafted and I had stalks coming up from the rootstock. But that's just the thing - these newer, taller and thicker stalks are growing from the lower portion of last year's growth. Not even right down at the bottom, so that I might confuse it with rootstock growth. It is from a few inches up on last year's growth. Plus, as has been mentioned, there is no visible graft. Of course, it could be buried, but I honestly don't think so.

    The only thing I could think of is the fact that it is growing in different conditions now than it was previously. My sister had it in poor soil and never feed it - probably never supplemented water either. Whereas I've given it Bayer a couple times and worm castings numerous times this season. I also water it pretty often. Some might say too much (for instance, my husband when he sees the water bill... lol).

    I wish I had a way of knowing more about it's history, but my sister rescued it from an old abandoned house that was to be torn down. When she moved in with me for a brief period, she brought it with her, and when she moved out she left it here for me.

    I will try to get pics of where the new growth is coming up from last year's. It is very peculiar. At least in my opinion.

  • redsnowflake
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Okay, I had taken a few pics of the base the other day. I didn't think they'd turned out at all, and while they're not the best pics, they at least show this year's huge growth coming off of last year's smaller growth. And with the heat index being over 100 and me 9 months pregnant, I'm not going outside today just to get pictures.

    Anyway, this photo (pardon the mess of leaves and debris) shows where the new growth (green) is coming off the side of the old growth (brown):

    Now, below is a photo of the bush earlier this year. It is almost exclusively last year's growth. You can see a bit of newer red growth in the back right area, but otherwise all last year's growth:


    Finally, another full bush shot that shows the taller new growth versus the shorter, bushier growth from last year. The tall stalk reaching toward the road is the same thick green stalk under the date-stamp in the first photo:

    And the end of one of this year's crazy long (compared to last year, anyway) stalks:

    I hope my post makes sense, and that the photos and descriptions work together to clarify, rather than confuse. If anyone would like clarification on anything, please let me know.

  • altorama Ray
    16 years ago

    If it was rootstock, the foliage would look different than
    the other. Just watch it for a while, anyway, you will be
    too busy to watch it soon! Congrats and best of luck with
    your new baby!
    Alida

  • redsnowflake
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Yeah - I certainly don't think it's rootstock, judging by where it is growing from and that both the blooms and the foliage are the same. It was just the unusually vigorous growth that made me wonder. But, as I previously stated (I think I did anyway), it could very well have to do with it being in better growing conditions than it was last year.

    I'll keep my eye on it and see what it does. I've pruned two of the tall canes back to be more in line with the rest of the plant. As soon as the other longer canes finish blooming, I'll be trimming them back, too.

    With the crazy weather we've had this year (late freeze followed by a long drought), and the fact that it is still doing as well as it is, I simply cannot wait to see what it does next year!

    At least I know it will fair well if I end up neglecting it some once the new baby arrives. Because very soon, I likely won't have time to 'stop and smell the roses' let alone keep up the maintenance on them.

  • rainbow_2007
    16 years ago

    Trust me this is Don Juan - a climber BUT if you keep cutting the stems back to be in line with the rest of the bush, it won't be! This is the first rose I purchased...I bought two of them 2 years ago and they are huge enough to cover 2 trellis'. Even if you don't believe, just cut the blooms to deadhead, don't cut the stems down.

    Blooms
    {{gwi:1227403}}

    Bud
    {{gwi:1227404}}

    Leaves
    {{gwi:1227405}}

  • redsnowflake
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Maybe it is Don Juan, but when it sends up canes as big around or bigger than my thumb, and they are 4+ feet tall when they shoot up, I don't see how I'd ever be able to train this thing to climb anything. Either way, in it's current location, I have no need nor use for a climber. As a matter of fact, if I cannot train it to a somewhat reasonable sized bush, I'll have to find somewhere else to put it. And I already have a New Dawn, and cuttings of Seven Sisters, Climbing Blaze, and this mystery / Mr. Lincoln / Don Juan / whatever it is rose. LOL. So, for right now I already have more climbers than I know what to do with.

    Once I have an actual rooted cutting of my mystery rose, I'll see about training it as a climber. But so far, it hasn't grown past about 6 or 7 feet and only blooms at the very ends, so I'm not sure that it would make a very good climber. But as my grandmother frequently says, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."

    I appreciate everyone's input. ;)

  • rainbow_2007
    16 years ago

    You're right, the canes are stiff... we just pull the canes as close as we can and tie it to the trellis. You could put a pillar right next it, I've seen pics of it climbing on arbors. The first year it didn't bloom that much but now it reblooms so well my neighbor has come over to commment on it. I've been away on vacation and haven't taken care of it for a few weeks so it's looking shabby right now. But that is one rose you want to keep.

  • redsnowflake
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Oh, no matter what it is, be it Don Juan, Mr. Lincoln, or something else altogether, I will most definitely be keeping it. In my opinion, it has some of the most beautiful blooms! I'm hoping my cuttings take, and with the way this thing grows, I suspect they will. (*^_^*)

  • petaloid
    16 years ago

    I'm willing to believe it could be Don Juan, but if it is ... I need one too!

  • buffbeauty
    16 years ago

    don juan, again.