The top one has the foliage of a Rosa Wichurana derivative such as 'Dorothy Perkins', the bottom picture seems to be showing something else, with different leaves.

thanks
the bottom one is in the garden, sorry I didn't make that one clear ;^D
pot ghettos interspersed in the garden doesn't help ID ing

this one is too large a bloom and too smelly for Dorothy Perkins (rofl) I just hacked back a jungle of it at my other house
thank you for giving me more info, though...if it's a oncebloomer it may be my only shot

What I meant was it had the same kind of foliage, not that it was that same variety.

got it - it gives me an excuse to pore over rosepic encyclopedias...thank you again for looking and thinking about it

it looks too pale to be Russelliana, could it be Tausendschon?
lilac pink to blush to white, with white centers, nearly thornless?