You didn't say anything about major ID-clues like the bush's size, its form (growth-habit), leaf color & glossiness, bloom-size, etc. But from the clues you did give (main petal color, petal-tip color, petal-count, bush age, fragrance, mixed single & cluster-blooming) ...the name which first comes to mind is Dr. Huey, for two reasons.

(1) The original bush's Dr. Huey (a 1914 rose) rootstock is what MOST-OFTEN "comes back" when a bush has been (literally) moved down to the ground.
(2) Dr. Huey's characteristics match the ID-clues given in your description.

Additional information from you (such as the missing ID-clues I mentioned) would enable other readers to either nullify or confirm my "first thought" guess. Most especially, a bloom-size report can indicate whether it's Dr. Huey, or not.

Hoping this info is helpful,
JohnReb

Thanks JohnReb. I was hoping you'd reply.

I forgot to mention that the bush is in bloom now, so that would rule out Dr. Huey which is a once blooming spring rose, right?

The blooms are about 4 inches across and lighter than Dr. Huey.

The plant is small now, about 1.5 feet high because it is coming back from being mown almost to the ground.

I'll go back to his house and see if I can get more clues.

Well, it's a little difficult to run two identical threads on different forums. Nevertheless, since you seem to be paying attention to this one, this is what I posted over there:

The red one may be Crimson Glory. It was THE red before the 60's. If a fresh bloom is extremely fragrant, then that's the one. Even today, despite a tendency to BS, Crimson Glory is surprisingly survivable. It doesn't get much press these days because it's habit is very bush-like, and the blooms have short stems with nodding necks. Although, the British considered that an advantage: a self-preservation against rain.

The bloom's fragrance on a healthy bush may exceed Fragrant Cloud's. Also more potent than Mister Lincoln, CG will almost cover itself with blooms during a flush (something Mister Lincoln finds impossible). It was the first rose to win the James Alexander Gamble Fragrance Award.

Looks like JohnReb has your answer. I thought Dr. Huey was a single, but was surprised to see HelpMeFind list it as 15 petals. I was also surprised to see Crimson Glory as 35 petals. I didn't think CG had that many. According to the numbers, though, I think he's right.

One last caveat - perhaps someone will post about when the practice of grafting with Dr. Huey started. For some reason, pre-1950 seems a little early for Dr. Huey grafts.

Thanks for your replies.

My other thread was mistakenly posted on the wrong forum, I thought I posted an "oops" reply, but I messed up on that, too.

I don't think it is Dr. Huey because it is blooming now and Dr. H blooms only once in the spring. Also the blooms are larger than Dr. H and not as dark.

Could plant stress reduce petal count?

I did take some pictures of the blooms, but the blooms are almost spent so I don't know how useful the photos will be.

You don't need to give your email to view the photos, just click on the slide.

Here is a link that might be useful: Don't give email, just click slide

Back to Crimson Glory. That is not a Dr. Huey, and yes - petal count may be highly variable, depending on the variety and the amount of stress.

Crimson Glory loves heat, but if stressed, petal count will be reduced significantly. It is not unusual that fragrance will be reduced, too - and there may be little from spent, fried blooms in the middle of summer (as in your picture).

Being now informed with a key piece of missing information (bloom diameter is 4 inches), my "first thought" guess is canceled.

Yes, stress can reduce petal-count ...but I haven't personally seen stress reduce a "normally 40 petals" rose into producing nothing but 14-to-16 petal blooms. Maybe some blooms would have that few, but not all of 'em. Seems like at least *some* blooms would have 25, if it normally produces 40. Therefore, I'd check older red rose-varieties that normally produce 20, 25, or 30 petals.

Then again, perhaps other people here *have* seen stress push a 40-petal rose into producing nothing but 15-petal blooms.

Also, you said the bush produces blooms as both singles and clusters. That is generally the definition of a grandiflora, so I'd check reds in that class along with the hybrid-tea class.

Regards,
JohnReb

JohnReb,
I'm not sure if you're rebutting the suggestion of Crimson Glory, because you're referring to 40 petals, which was actually not mentioned. As referenced above, HelpMeFind lists it as 35 petals, not 40. As also stated, it was a little surprising to see it listed that way. Mine can reduce its petal count significantly under certain circumstances.

Traits such as petal count on roses that old are not as consistent as more modern roses. Even so, the ARS official AEN says 30-35 petals. So, we could be talking about a rose with 30 petals under ideal conditions, not 40. I was actually surprised to see a petal count even listed with ARS. Most roses that old are only listed as "single", "semi-double", or "double." It may be that ARS adopted a much more detailed description because the rose was so poplular in earlier years, and served as the source for so many other modern reds.

Interestingly, the ARS Encyclopedia of Roses lists the bloom size as 3.9 inches (10 cm).

Obviously, it is all just a guess. I just wanted to debate a little that CG may still be a valid suggestion. Except for the fact that a rose as old as CG has more anomalies, your logic - as always - is flawless. :)

Rosetom, no, I did not intend my post to be a rebuttal of the suggestion of Crimson Glory.

In fact, when I began typing it I had planned to include something like the following as a closing statement:
"Rosetom's suggestion of Crimson Glory is worth investigating, given his reputation for on-target guesses, so you (Rosyjennifer) might want to check CG's other characteristics to see if it matches your neighbor's mystery-rose. I don't grow CG and I'm unfamiliar with its characteristics."

But I was writing that post at nearly 1:00 AM (very tired) and to speed my head toward the pillow I decided Rosyjennifer would follow your advice without me including a suggestion that she do so.

Now re-reading my post I see that it can be interpreted as disputing Crimson Glory. Sorry about that. I assure you it wasn't my intention.

When I mentioned "40-petal roses" I was thinking about very-widely-sold older reds like Chrysler Imperial (which I do grow and thus I easily remember its 40+ petal-count).

All I knew about Crimson Glory is what you yourself said in a past thread about fragrant red HTs - specifically, that CG's blooms blow fast ...and because I greatly prefer long-lasting blooms, I was uninterested in CG's other characteristics (like its petal-count).

By the way, I had not noticed that a lot of older HTs are ARS-listed only as sinlge or double, etc, with no petal-count given. Thank you for pointing that out.

Regards,
JohnReb

Such useful info, thanks!

Crimson Glory does seem like a good guess although a rose called Carrousel came up at HMF and it looks close, too. I've never heard of Carrousel so I'm guessing it wasn't as widely available as CG, so that reduces the odds.

I got a bloom today off of a heat stressed Papa Meilland and the petal count was way down - about 18 from 35. There was only one bloom, unlike the 3 blooms on the mystery red, though.

Thank you again for your help.

Here is a link that might be useful: Carrousel

Hmm - JohnReb, I thought our posts on CG led you to dismiss it because it has short stems. I'm not sure it really blows fast if healthy and established. On the contrary, a healthy one loves heat and humidity.

Rosyjennifer's rose is probably something neither of us have ever heard about, though. ;-)

hmm, hard to tell from the photos but what you have there MIGHT be Black Rose of Sangerhausen, it's been available since the 30s

I know we've pretty much ruled out Dr. Huey, but for future reference, Jennifer, the good Doctor has been known to occasionally have a second flush here in Maryland. I've only observed a few fall blooms here and there on some of the older, larger Huey bushes in my neighborhood, though.

Rosyjennifer my rose looks very much like the one you posted that rosetom also identified as Crimson Glory & mine only has about 15 petals at present, & the leaves are like those in your photo too.
It does seem to open quicker in the heat also, ....
I'm seeing if I can add photos here of it fully open,
Cheers, Yvonne F.

{{gwi:1230430}} {{gwi:1230431}}

Here are the young leaves,
Cheers, Yvonne

{{gwi:1230432}}

Thanks for your photos, Yvonne. They were very helpful, especially the foliage ones. My flower looks a lot like your CG flower but your foliage looks very different from my mystery rose's foliage. Granted my photos are terrible, but from what I can see it looks like your CG's leaves are rounder than my roses' with serated, darker colored edges. My leaves seem more elongiated and pointed with smoother edges.

I'm noy ruling out CG, but now I'm not so sure that is what it is.

Thanks again for your useful photos.
Jennifer

Hi Jennifer,
It's very difficult isn't it,
my leaves lose the dark edges as they mature, the reddish tinge is only on the newer growth, but yours do look a bit narrower, mine seem to be a bit larger after feeding & a good shower of rain this time also.
CG sounds the most likely for mine (apart from the petal count), as mine is from a cutting I was wondering if CG is normally grafted & if that might affect the petal count also.
Hope you get a confirmation soon,
Cheers, Yvonne

Hi again,
I found a site that has a lot of photos of old HT roses,
it may be of some help,
Cheers, Yvonne

http://www.rogersroses.com/gallery/default~gid~157.asp

Hi again Rosyjennifer if you're still around :-),
I have posted a few more pics of my Crimson Glory & one of the whole bush, you may find all the leaves aren't as round as others.
Here's the link to HMF below

Cheers Yvonne

Here is a link that might be useful: Help Me Find

Hi Yvonne. : ) I would have posted back sooner but I've been drooling over the Roger's roses webpage for the last few days. : ) Thanks for that link!

You know... I think the rose is CG. afterall. The leaves are quite different in the photos at HMF and some do look like my rose. Other good news is that the rose shows no sign of RMV which I understand many of the old roses have.

As always, thank you so much for your kind help and useful info.
Jennifer

Hi Rosyjennifer,
Glad you're enjoying Roger's Roses :-),
I have never had RMV on any of my roses thankfully, but I do get the usual Black Spot on some varieties.
I thought your rose looked like CG also, mine has just been lovely at present, but alas the wind & rain have spoilt them a bit prematurely.

I'm only too pleased to help if possible, although I'm no expert.

Cheers, Yvonne

You mentioned moving them. I have moved badly stressed roses before. I cut off all of the blooms and prune if the time is right. Dig a hole and put a palmfull of rose food in the bottom, plant the rose. I then sprinkle epsom salt on top of the soil and water thoroughly. No fertilizer until the rose is putting out new growth. (someone else recommended the no fertilizer thing) The epsom salt promoted good root development and provides magnesium. I transplanted two badly bushogged roses this way from an old property and they have done very well for me. Weather can change a rose blooms color slightly, so the same rose can look different as far as blooms depending on the weather. Whatever they are, good luck with them.
Amanda