Thanks for sharing this info Strawbhill!

Hi Jim: Since I don't have HMF membership, I am limited to one PM in a few days. I'm praying hard for your wife's MS. We all have our pains in life (mine is hay fever) ... which remind me to be extra-nice to everyone.

Jim, your postings here help me to figure out the easiest approach to keep roses healthy without spraying ... Thank God it's NOT getting horse manure, which is a big nuisance. Each rose has its own pH-level-preference, and trace elements help in coping with stress: be it hot & dry, or extremely humid, or prolong-rain that leaches out nutrients. I have all 3 conditions these past months !!

Every rose is different, can't use the same approach to all. Grafted-on-Dr.Huey likes it alkaline, my neighbor had several GRAFTED hybrid teas, 100% healthy in our pH 7.7 clay, and bloomed lots with our pH 8.3 hard-well-water. In contrast, my own-root Austin roses, bred in England (acidic & rainy climate) prefer lower pH, with pH of rain from 6 in my Chicagoland to more acidic in the East coast.

There's my French Romantica, Frederic Mistral, which doubled the growth, much wider and vigorous, after gritty lime application (pH 9). France has more alkaline clay region, with hotter & drier climate. Below is Frederic Mistral, became vigorous & wider in growth when I supplied calcium via gritty lime. Its last flush was 70+ blooms. Picture take today, humidity over 60%, more rain to come:

I'm very pleased with cracked-corn soaked in water for 24 hours. I soaked various ratios in different buckets, then pH-test with red-cabbage juice as to the ratio with the best pH level. pH of cracked corn is acidic like peatmoss (pH 4), and my tap water pH is 8.3. The best ratio to produce slightly alkaline water is 1/4 cup corn to 1 cup tap water.

Last summer I noticed immediate shiny luster in leaves after corn-tea application. I notice the water above the soaked-corn is a bit greasy, from corn's fatty acids. In % daily value, Corn has 25% iron, 12% fatty acids, high in many B vitamins, 53% magnesium, 35% phosphorus, 14% potassium, 24% zinc, 26% copper, and 37% selenium. The last 3 are antifungal agents.

Cracked corn is cheap, $2.99 per 10 lbs. at the feed store, or $13 for a HUGE bag. Last coldest winter in my zone 5a, I destroyed several plants by too much rock-salt to de-ice my front walkway ... stores ran out of potassium chloride. This winter I'll use cracked-corn to de-ice my front walkway ... much better for plants, and for concrete. NPK of cracked corn is 1.65-0.65-0.4, that's much higher than horse manure at 0.44-0.35-0.3.

Here's Evelyn new leaves, shiny & healthy, 24 hours after application of cracked-corn soaked in tap water. Picture taken after last night rain, very humid weather:

No matter how diseased a rose is, there's hope if a change is made. Take Yves seedling#2. I grew that in pot, always pale & disease-fest. When plant that in ground, I was foolish to throw away my sticky clay with trace elements, and put 100% MG potting soil, pH 6.5, slightly acidic, perfect range for fungal germination. Yves seedling#2 blooms lots, but is a BS-fest.

Gritty lime at pH 9 didn't help. Then I realize that the trace elements might help ... so I topped that with EnCap dry compost granules (pH 7.7), gypsum (for calcium), and watered with cracked-corn-tea. The new growth is 100% clean, with shiny luster. The old leaves are dull with BS. I like the bloom's color better: deeper pink with compost's trace elements, rather than gaudy pink like before.

Previous years I put gypsum & granular potassium in pots with clean roses & vigorous growth, and solid root. This year I forgot to put gypsum in the pots. BIG MISTAKE! The growth is wimpy, the leaves are thin and more susceptible to diseases. To make it worse, rabbits ate the buds from La Reine band, and chipmunks ate all the leaves.

Due to our month-long rain, I tried gritty lime, didn't help with its high pH 9. I tried corn meal, didn't help with its low pH below 4. Finally I gave it Milorganite (with antifungal trace elements zinc and copper) and NPK 5-2-0, plus Encap compost, plus red lava rock to keep chipmunks away, plus to supply potassium. Also topped with gypsum. Here's the new growth 100% clean in our months long of rain and humidity. Picture taken today.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Jul 23, 14 at 14:21

Leaves on Evelyn look great! Thanks for all the info!
Much appreciated Strawberryhill!

Here we get heavy dews outside. So around 10pm the leaves on our roses are getting wet as if it rained. They dry off early to late morning so perfect breeding grounds for BS etc almost every day.

Now I'm still trying to figure BS out... lol
I notice some roses like our Mister Lincoln does not get much BS here BUT roses that are suppose to be very disease resistant fail here with major leaf loss.

Just got questions on my mind like why are some roses extemely disease resistant in one location but not in another? That's what leads me to believe that their may be different strains of BS and certain roses are more immune to certain strain of BS in our areas. (Of course their are other factors involved such as the things you mention)
I've planted roses in the same conditions time after time and most of them have failed (lost all leaves) except for a very select few...
Something is making Mister Lincoln, Double Knockout, Carefree Sunshine etc. more disease resistant to BS in the same conditions...
Because their leaves are also constantly wet, and they live through the same conditions but BS never develops.

Remember these are just thoughts rolling in my head...lol

I want to try "Easy Does it" again here and a couple others next year to see how they do. Was thinking of maybe Country Dancer (Buck) and I'm not sure what else.

My son once lived in DeKalb Illinois... I visited him in 2012. I took a train from my town here in Pa to Chicago then caught a train in Chicago to about a half hour from DeKalb... My son picked me up at the last train stop.
Very flat and windy out there....lol
We are surrounded by mountains here in PA.

This post was edited by jim1961 on Wed, Jul 23, 14 at 19:17

I forget to tell you our soil test came back and the results were that our PH is 6.5 in the location I took the soil from and I do not need to add any fertilizer to grow roses at the present time.
Topdressing with compost is fine but not to over-do it...

Our neighbors have had roses for many years and they never fertilize and their roses still grow and bloom decent year after year. They do prune in the Spring though but bsides that they do nothing. No deadheading either...

I'll have to try some of your ideas Strawberryhill with the roses I will grow next year in large containers.

I really do not want to add anything to our in ground roses in native soil since the soil test came back good.
But I will if it would make a difference mostly with BS resistance.
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Did you ever hear the story on the knockout rose?

"The Rigorous evaluation To ensure the disease resistance of his roses William has developed a rigorous evaluation. He creates an environment that guarantees diseases have ideal conditions to survive and thrive.

William collects diseased leaves early in the season and dries them on sheets of newspaper. The dried leaves are put into a kitchen blender to create a powder. Large quantities of this powder are sprinkled over the entire rose garden while the rose leaves are wet. The overhead watering adds additional moisture and creates an ideal environment for infection.

"Diseases like blackspot usually show themselves within two weeks of this inoculation. In any case, before the current growing season ends, a high level of disease resistance is easy to spot among the devastation in my garden." A friend of mine has called this practice "benign neglect!""
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This post was edited by jim1961 on Wed, Jul 23, 14 at 21:51

Hi Jim: thanks for the picture of the mountains in your PA area ... that's so beautiful !! I live 1/2 hour northeast from DeKalb, IL. You are right that DeKalb is flat, mostly corn fields. I have more trees & and varied scenery here.

My heavy clay is fertile too. I don't need to fertilize much, but I need to add trace elements for disease-resistance. This is my first year WITHOUT horse manure, and it's the most black spots, and disappointing year !! Horse manure NPK is low, but high in trace elements, thanks to its being a good source of bacteria. Plus zinc and copper vitamins added to the feed.

Even if the soil is tested sufficient in NPK, with constant rain, and after heavy blooming .. nitrogen and potassium are leached out. Nitrogen can be re-supplied again with nitrogen-fixing bacteria, which is abundant in organic matter like composted manure. But potassium has to be supplied via fertilizer.

Henry Kuska, professor of chemistry and once had a garden of over 1,000 roses, made an excellent observation that perhaps roses become depleted of potassium after a bloom cycle, esp. late fall. I agree, I gave Comte de Chambord a big-dose of potassium at the start of its 2nd flush ... it gave many petals-bloom, and the bulk of the blooms are heavier than the leaves plus the wimpy root. Now at the end of its flush, it's breaking out in B.S.

To make zillion-petals bloom, a lot of potassium and calcium are needed prior to each flush. Less-petals like Knock-out are more disease-resistant, because the bulk of its roots is more than the bulk of the blooms ... the roots can easily fetch more nutrients. So for wimpy-root roses like Comte de Chambord and Jude the Obscure, immediate soluble fertilizer is needed for blooms & disease-protection.

Why Mr. Lincoln is more disease-resistant for your soil than else where? Perhaps Mr. Lincoln root is most vigorous in your particular soil to fetch the nutrients needed to fight against diseases. Romanticas are clean in my alkaline soil, since their roots are very vigorous at my soil pH, with plenty of dolomitic lime for them.

Your pic. shows the mountains in PA, which means less air-flow than my open Chicagoland. Plus I don't get dew, as you stated, "Here we get heavy dews outside. So around 10pm the leaves on our roses are getting wet as if it rained. They dry off early to late morning so perfect breeding grounds for BS."

I find that dry & leathery leaves like Crimson Glory (prone to mildew in dry climate) tolerate wetness on its leaves. Crimson Glory is my top-clean rose, even after 1-week of constant rain. Same with shiny leaves like Pat Austin ... that one is known as a water-hog & loves the rain, but become droopy in hot & dry weather. Christopher Marlow has thick & shiny & rain-resistant leaves.

It's the thin-leaves like Comte de Chambord that can't take the humidity nor wetness. I have to give that SOLUBLE calcium & potassium to make its leaves thicker. Same with Gruss an Teplitz, leaves can't take wetness, and he's the parent of Dr. Huey rootstock.

Zinc and copper are the 2 strongest antifungal agents, and some soil are more deficient in those. That's why this year without horse manure, my roses are the worst ever. Calcium is a weaker antifungal agent, but it still works. That's why my Duchess de Rohan planted in my clay fixed with tons of gypsum, is 100% clean despite being a shady, perpetually wet spot where other perennials are mildewed, and other roses with BS.

My clay is dolomitic lime, and I'm next to a limestone quarry, yet my soil is tested barely adequate in calcium. One hundred plus-petals bloom like Austin roses require lots of calcium and potassium, versus less-petal Knock-out. Below is a bouquet picked today, July 23, showing the many petals roses. The firm-petal one like Stephen Big Purple which lasts long in the vase, also requires an ungodly amount of calcium. It does very well next to my limestone-based patio, and doubled in growth after application of gritty lime. Pink is Sonia Rykiel, yellow is Golden Celebration, small beige Mary Magdalene, big peachy pink are Evelyn.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Jul 23, 14 at 22:56

Thanks for the info and suggestions! Great looking bouquet Strawberry hill!

I'll be adding more micronutrients to our compost for next year.
I was thinking about going with bare soil next year but the leaves look so much better topdressing with the compost and the roses are blooming very good so I do not think I'll change that.

I'll experiment more with the Brewers Yeast but so far I see no advantage of using it here...

Hi JIm: I agree that the compost around roses look much better than bare soil. pH of Encap dry compost ($2 per 18 lb. bag, sold at Menards) is alkaline, at pH 7.7 (same as my clay). That particular compost stays dry & fluffy, even after watering, thus prevent fungi from germination on the ground, to be splashed up to leaves.

I will test Brewers Yeast on my most stingy rose, and report the result end of summer. Brewers Yeast is acidic at pH 5, that will help with my pH 7.7 alkaline clay.