Gardening is one of the live-and-learn sort of things.

So, why don't you just get rid of those roses, then plant healthy barreroots in the correct site?

Much easier, less stress, much safer.

Well, you've learned that roses really don't tolerate shade. Certain varieties are said to be "shade tolerant", but they still require at least half a day of sun, preferably in the morning. (Hybrid musks, for example).

Get both of your roses into the sun and they should grow new leaves. Then just RELAX! Gardening is not about constantly applying products, organic or otherwise, to your plants.

The most important part of growing roses organically is choosing BS resistant varieties - rugosas, many antiques (especially albas and gallicas), many shrub roses). You will have to experiment to see which roses are happy in your environment.

With anything that is sprayed, goggles, gloves and a mask should be worn. Even Greencure and Serenade can be irritants to eyes and the respiratory system, take a look at the Material Saftey Data Sheet (MSDS) for the products.

Diane, I actually have both products and have already read their label warnings. Serenade has quite a lot more irritants and problems than Greencure. Greencure is so safe; there may be minimal skin irritation at the very most! especially in its water solution. There are no warnings to wear a mask in Greencure. You just don't want to be inhaling it like a glue-sniffing addict or rinsing your eyes with Greencure, lol! Now it's a good idea to wear at least some vinyl disposable gloves just for sanitation's sake, but I still believe those 2 organic fungicides are not the heavy duty intensity thing like synthetic fungicides. I mean that stuff does not smell normal! I made the bad mistake of using a regular mask and not an actual respirator, Idiot me! and got a headache afterwards in the process. At the opposite end of the spectrum, I've never! gotten any headaches from either Greencure and Serenade and in the past I've never worn any masks. At least Serenade smells natural, like ordinary vinegar. Greencure is odorless.

Maureen, I've already potted up my dear Freddie in its sunny spot as I wrote earlier, --it is doing so much better because now not only does it have sunshine but also it has been freed from the stranglehold of plum tree roots and poor drainage soil. Being potted I can finally feed it Gardenville sea tea every week instead of just once every 5-6 weeks. Before when it was in that horrible spot, I couldn't do any special liquid feed because the soil was constantly soggy and too wet. And what a huge difference the Gardenville Tea has made for Frederick Mistral. It is finally becoming a normal rose again.

Jean, I decided not to winter protect one of my shade-growing roses Queen Elizabeth, except for mulching. I don't care about QE because she has got awful fragrance. She may be pretty but that scent is the ultimate Yuck!!! If QE dies, I'm going to replace her with invasive ground plants like heather and bee balm and maybe throw in some ornamental honeysuckle... Then I will take a potted rose, such as your suggested rugosa, and place it in that area. I will take the potted rose and leave it there on weekdays and on the weekends, I'll carry it to the sunny spot where Frederick Mistral will always be grown. That way the rose can enjoy its weekends of full sun and start storing more energy for blooms.

Maureen and Jean it's also a painful lesson that hybrid teas desperately need a lot of sunlight. At least Kansas sun is very good against blackspot. It's the autumn now that I really have to worry about. I only grow hybrid teas, but for the shaded area, I am forced to consider other options. And horrors of horrors I forgot! how rainy Kansas autumns are because I've never! gardened ever! in my life and never observed weather until March of 2009. Those roses are sure teaching me a big lesson!

What is your soil like? For an organic gardener the soil is the most important part of the garden and you need a soil well endowed with organic matter that is evenly moist but well drained and then you need to site the plant properly. You also need to know what the soils pH is and what the level of the major nutrients are from a good, reliable soil test.

Kimmsr,as I wrote earlier, I am entirely to blame for my shade-growing roses. Tree-roots (from an ornamental plum and seems to steal all the nutrients from the soil anyway), the worst possible drainage, no sunlight. As soon as I transplanted one of them, it is sprouting like crazy and making a wonderful comeback. It loves that Gardenville Sea Tea (it's organic).

But really Maureen says it all. I have to find a different kind of rose if I want to stay true to organics.

Karl the expert rosarian was adamant in saying that organics is completely useless in fighting blackspot if one is growing hybrid teas. It doesn't matter how good your soil is, how much sunlight, eventually it will get to one's roses if you get intense rains like we do in the fall. Milk, baking soda, potassium carbonate, it doesn't work!!! He does all the composting, the alfalfa teas, the soil balancing, etc. etc and he grows hundreds of roses. He says he hasn't used synthetic fungicides for about 7 years now, but lol! he says there are times that he is about ready to haul out the power chemicals that he still has stored away-- that yes, that dreaded blackspot will completely strip many of those hybrid teas. And that if one doesn't have blackspot it will eventually hit and hit hard! But if it's got good soil and nutrients it will survive the winter regardless, it just will be not be a very attractive rose in terms of foliage and naked stems, but it will survive.

Again, I think it is a sad fact but I'm realizing that in order to have hybrid teas there are seasons when we will have very ugly rose foliage and when our roses will struggle.

I too fight the Black Spot war and as it is I also tend to know it is one in which none of us will win BS control tho is a battle our alies are Sun, cooler air temps, and even then it still shows up.

Even when it came down to picking out HT's I read about the person who got it to be such a rose and this is what I got in return.

Oneday someone wanted a real big rose blossum that was strong in fragerance they also wanted to use this rose for cuttings for there very nice vase and call there friends to visit just to get a view of these HT's

What little did did they know back then has caught up to anyone who wants an HT

There very life like in a sence Roses make trades as a plant You want fragerance the Hybrids have to give up something you want flower size again it gives up something Yes BS is a tuff war iof we think in a sence of what the Rose had to give up to become what we wanted then already damage done

Try not to be fooled when you read or pick out a rose they say disease resistant or tolerant if a rose is a hybryd it will have a problem somewhere else and yes even the winter hardy disease tolerant carpet rose is not exempt from this

Is there any real hope for HT's well we will have to wait and see as the folks at Cornell University attept to get a HT with out BS I would take bets that we get Blue roses befor the BS is a thing of the past

LOL! that is so funny Wes! Yup the BS war and yes your logic makes the ultimate sense!!!!

I love it when you say we are more likely to get a blue rose than we are to let BS be a thing of the past.

And your theory that roses always give up something in the process is so ON!! Sometimes its petal shape and petal count that is sacrificed, sometimes its the fragrance that is sacrificed, always something goes by the wayside.

For me my 2 requirements, exceptional fragrance and the classical Hybrid Tea form is just asking for trouble, LOL! The only rule breaking/exception to my hybrid teas is trying to find a rose that is very attractive to bees! hahaha! now that is super tough requirement, there was only one rose that fit that description and whaddya know, it is a very rare and almost impossible rose to get in the U.S.--the Heidesommer Rose.

Wes, I wish ARS would breed for the ultimate Bee-Rose LOL!

Anyway, "honeybee-bumblebee roses" are the only kinds that I would make exceptions for instead of getting just hybrid teas, and perhaps 2 rugosas if they were very attractive to bees and were prolific, very fragrant bloomers. But other than Heidesommer and the mystery-yet-to be found rugosas, I have to deal with the headaches of wanting to grow Hybrid Teas exclusively...

Pushed up on top so that you could see yourself today
Read your thread
Last question: What else grew besides them roses ?
No need to answer someone may already know.

Bonsai
P.S. Watch them fingers LOL

Thank-You