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Best fertilizing for healthy plants?

strawchicago z5
9 years ago

I tried many fertilizers for the past 3 years ... made plenty of mistakes. Finally came up with the cheapest, and most healthy for plants:

1) Chickity-doo-doo dried & heated manure at $8 for 25 lbs., NPK 5-3-2 get my vote as the healthiest manure for plants. It's in Espoma Tomato-Tone & Plant-Tone & Rose-Tone. Chicken manure is high in boron, copper, zinc, and calcium ... thanks to the additives to chicken-feed. Boron is vital for plant's growth, and zinc & copper & calcium are anti-fungal agents. Chicken manure is dry and alkaline.

2) Alfalfa gets my 2nd vote, if topped with something dry and alkaline, to prevent fungal and pest germination on its being sticky and acidic, with pH 5.7. Plants get so many lush, shiny, and healthy leaves. Alfalfa NPK is 2-1-2, but it acts like NPK 5-1-2 with tremendous growth. Alfalfa has zero salt, decent calcium, plus growth hormone.

3) Sulafte of potash. It's a mined, natural deposit in the earth. NPK is 0-0-50, high in potassium. Potassium is essential for blooming, disease-prevention, and drought-tolerance. I use that together with chicken manure, or to balance the calcium in gritty lime during prolonged rain.

4) Gypsum. Good to mix in the planting hole and mixed into potting soil, to promote root-growth. My cuttings root best with 1/2 potting soil & 1/2 perlite and some gypsum.

Below is a bouquet next to Annie L. McDowell plant. Annie bloom is fertilized with chicken-manure, with gypsum in the planting hole. It's always clean & lots of leaves. Dark red W.S. 2000 bloom is fertilized with compost, the bloom is lesser size than with chicken manure.

Orange is C.P.Margareta, smallest in bloom, blah-color, fertilized with Milorganite & some red-lava rock for potassium. Milorganite is stinky LONGER than chicken manure ... lasting for 10 days, great to deter animals, including deer and rabbits.

Chicken manure is mighty stinky at first, the smell goes way quickly after a rain, versus Milorganite' sewage odor lingers for more than a week. Dark pink is Frederic Mistral, with cow manure high in phosphorus. There are many 4" blooms of Fred on the bush, which I didn't cut.

Comments (82)

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's a pic of the Double Knockout rose I'll be taking out next Spring so I can put Kordes "Rose of Hope" in its place.
    I'll give the D-KO to someone along with our Thomas Affleck rose ...
    This D-Knockout is in its first season. It got only compost and has not been hand watered by anyone since it was planted in Mid May...
    It is growing and looking good so Rose of Hope should also...

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    enchantedrose,

    Below is a thread I started asking the size of Plum Perfect.
    Judith from Texas wrote she loves her plum perfect and has bought two more...
    You can read her post in the link I posted below...

    Here is a link that might be useful: Plum Perfect Thread

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Now I can't decide whether to get Prarie Harvest or Kordes Golden Fairy Tale...
    I also like Golden Fairy Tale after seeing this bush shot pic...lol

    Since I already ordered Prarie Harvest I'll plant it but if it fails then I'll try Golden Fairy Tale...

    Here is a link that might be useful: Golden Fairy Tale bush pic

    This post was edited by jim1961 on Fri, Aug 8, 14 at 22:28

  • enchantedrose
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim and Strawberry~Nice to see all the beautiful pics. My computer crashed bigtime yesterday so i had to wait for the computer guru, aka my husband, to get home from work to fix it. Hopefully I'm back ;-)

    Jim, your garden is beautiful. I love blue/purple flowers too. I have loads of Nepeta Walker Junior which is shorter than Walker's Low, short Russian sage and New Zealand "Blue Lace" delphiniums. These are supposedly better able to deal with our cold winters but hot, humid summers. I ordered some seeds for this from the company in NZ direct. Hopefully I can get them to sprout, I don't have the best of luck with seeds. A green house would be really nice!! I wonder if the marigolds are doing the trick of repelling bugs? Heirloom Roses has a rose companions article and states "Marigold discourages harmful nematodes, repels pests and is a trap plant for slugs" so it seems that your theory has merit. They also state that Tansy is a JB repellant and other herbs seem to repel other insects. Definitely something to try for a mixed border garden.

    If you ordered your roses from Chamblees you can substitute Golden Lion for Prairie Harvest. I just called and changed my order on Thursday. The sales person couldn't have been any nicer :-) I love my 3 Kordes Fairytale roses Caramella Fairytale, Cinderella and Elegant; good repeat and the flowers last forever plus very little to no blackspot and these get minimal care. I haven't even watered them and we are still seeing abnormally dry conditions according to the MA drought map. Even the weeds are wilting!! What I've noticed about the Kordes roses is that the flowers last a very long time. I would estimate well over a week where as my Folksingers last probably 3-4 days so they shatter relatively quick. Peggy Rockerfeller rose garden grows quite a few Kordes Roses chemical free and has a top rated list. All the Kordes rank at least 8 or higher, Knockout ranks an 8. Cream Veranda is 8.5. The best ranked is Meilland "Easter Basket" rose. It has gotten rave reviews here and at HMF.

    I'm sure that the waxy/glossy leaves observation has some exceptions but it seems to be that most of my least problematic roses for disease have glossy leaves so maybe that's a good feature to look for when choosing a rose variety. The book also mentioned that yellow roses were more susceptible to fungal disease since yellow is not an original species rose color. Again not a hard and fast rule but just her observations and many complain about black spot on their yellow roses but you hear less complaints about the roses that have been bred as disease resistant so it seems that the newer hybrids have been able to meld the best of both worlds. My Caramella Fairytale rose which is a yellow/peach blend has virtually no blackspot and repeats well, but again it has super glossy leaves so this could be the reason it does so well. The ph of the bed it's in is around neutral which I've read is the ideal ph for blackspot and she still has no blackspot. This one also wintered beautifully, little cane damage even though it was a long cold winter.

    Strawberry~Thanks for the latest research. You are such a timesaver for me. I love your Evelyn rose. It is so lush and healthy looking and would probably work well in my bed with Darcey Bussell. I might have to order this one from Chamblees next year. Do you prefer them over Roses Unlimited or are both equally good root quality? RU is closer to me so a little less stress for the rose's journey but Chamblee's is a much better price.

    Sharon

    Easter Basket Rose

    Here is a link that might be useful: peggy rockerfeller rose list

    This post was edited by enchantedrose on Sat, Aug 9, 14 at 8:04

  • enchantedrose
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jim~ Another one "Brother's Grimm" fairytale ranked 8.50 and is striking and is supposed to be 3-4 feet. I'm thinking of adding this to my "must haves" too!!

    Sharon

    Kordes "Brothers Grimm"

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pics of the roses you posted are fantastic enchantedrose!
    Brothers Grimm reviews on another thread on Gardenweb are so so... Some people did not like it for different reasons.
    So I'm kinda staying away from it for now until I further investigate.
    But on the Kordes Website its ranked the best of the Fairy Tale series...

    I had to order Praire Harvest off of Roses Unlimited as Chamblees does not have it. I also ordered Earthsong and Easy Does it off of Roses Unlimited.
    The other roses I get will be from Chamblees...

    I found a wonderful way to start seeds...lol
    I ordered a seed starting heating mat last year online.
    I put the seeds in flats or cups and put plastic saran wrap over top then plugged heating mat in and placed seed containers on the heating mat. 99% germination from the seeds I had in 3-5 days... NOW as soon as the seeds start sprouting then the saran wrap needs removed...

    Even though not all glossy leathery type leaves are blackspot resistant I do notice many that are like you said.
    Most of my statements I make I'm referring to here only...
    I have no idea what goes on in other areas of the country or even 1 mile from us...
    When I experience something here I know its possible because I seen it happen...lol

    Yes I've heard about yellow roses being less disease resistant. Our Carefree Sunshine was a single yellow and it did not get blackspot. And there are a select couple others. "Morning has Broken" (Clements)
    I have not tried many yellow roses for the fact you mentioned though...
    But I think the Kordes Fairy Tale yellows might work here...
    My friend who lives 3 miles from me lives near wooded areas and it gets super humid and wet in his location... The Kordes Fairy Tale series blackspots badly in his location...But so does all his other 100+ roses...
    Only Knockout, Homerun do not get blackspot for him...

    But I live more in a open area then he does...

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We have dogwood bushes that get major leaf problems that look like a cross between blackspot and rust on ALL its leaves. (Not much leaf drop) Just very unsightly...lol

    We had these bushes for 20 years... About 12 years ago I was going to take them out because I was so sick of looking at the unsightly fungus on its leaves every year!
    Well I got lazy and instead of digging them out I cut them to the ground thinking it would kill them...

    Low and behold they grew back and were 4ft tall and wide within 3 months and NO fungus!
    AND no fungus for the next 3 years... Then the fungus came back full force again SO I whacked them to the ground again and low and behold we got another 3 years of no fungus... So I've been doing that ever since with great results...

    Dogwoods only bloom once a year in the Spring on old wood with tiny white flowers...
    So I let Morning Glories grow up through them for some extra color...lol

    I cut these bushes to the ground just this past late April:
    They starting sprouting and growing in late May...

    This DOES NOT work for roses! I cut a few roses completely to the ground! It only prolonged the blackspot from coming back anywhere from 1-2 months....

    This post was edited by jim1961 on Sat, Aug 9, 14 at 10:39

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for that peggy rockerfeller rose list...
    I will look over this list for future roses if needed...Cool!

    I see Homerun is only rated 810 (Homerun does very well here in our area)

    Julia Child is rated 835 ( But she blackspots decently bad in our area) (I know where there are two of those planted nearby I've been watching them for a few years now)

    Hummmm - I will check out this list...lol Thanks!

    This post was edited by jim1961 on Sat, Aug 9, 14 at 11:52

  • enchantedrose
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim~
    Your morning glories are stunning! I had some last year but they were totally eaten by some metallic gold beetle so none this year. I don't need to introduce even more chewing insects to my garden, the JB's, Oriental beetles, thrips, rose slug, regular slugs, aphids, lily beetle etc. are enough!!

    I know that what works is so dependent on your personal micro environment. It's pretty humid here in summer we are surrounded by swamp so pretty good black spot pressure. It's been cooler here this year so maybe that's keeping the b.s. at bay a bit plus no rain which contributes to it as well. I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I'll just have to experiment like you and Strawberry until I find the best minimal or no care roses. I don't mind fussing over the Austins a bit since they're fragrance is worth the price of admission but I'd still like the bulk of my garden to be minimal care. I have probably have well over 1500 square feet of garden, maybe more, so it's a lot to tend to. Some is shade so that pretty much takes care of itself but wherever there's sun there's roses which require a bit more attention. The DA's so far seem to be doing really well in the b.s. department, hopefully they'll stay that way.

    I'm not sure about Peggy Rockerfeller garden being completely no spray but I think it was while Peter Kukielski was curator but he had an interview with NY Times on no spray roses. He revamped the garden beginning 2006 and removed hundreds of problematic roses but I don't know if the 2010 list was no spray. He has since left as curator so maybe they have gone back to spraying. He has a book coming out in Feb. 2015 for growing roses without chemicals. I'm probably going to buy it to see what his advice is.

    Paul Zimmeran doesn't spray either but he seems to concentrate mostly on KO and other landscape roses. I want to find some roses that are more fragrant and showy than these. The KO's and such have their place and I have a couple but I'm like you and Strawberry I want more variety and fragrance if I can get it! The Kordes don't have much fragrance to speak of but they have some gorgeous blooms. Bolero smells exquisite and has gorgeous white blooms blushed pale pink in the center and has been great so far so has Julia Child with her sunny yellow blooms...but I'll see if they survive winter here as both are grafted. I plan on buying Bolero from RU in the spring, I really like it so far and it has been blooming pretty much non stop. It's a bit of a gamble to order it before it goes through a New England winter but it's supposed to be hardy to zone 5b so I'm hoping I'm safe. Either that or I'll have to winter protect it. At least the own roots will grow back true if they suffer severe winter kill :-)

    Here's a pic of the nasty gold beetle that loved my morning glories~
    Sharon

    Gold tortoise beetle

    Here is a link that might be useful: Peter Kukielski curator

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nasty looking gold beetle! You have a lot of garden space! Awesome!

    Those roses listed on Peggy Rockefeller Rose Garden are probably no spray because you really can not rate a rose sprayed with chemicals...

    Easter Basket will be on my backup list too...

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HI Jim and Sharon:

    Thank you, Sharon, for more pics. of Kordes roses ... that deep orange color is hard to find. Thank you for the link to Peggy Rockefeller DR-rose-list.

    Thanks, Jim, for those fantastic bush-shots, they are hard to find. I hope to see bush-shots of the roses you're buying, esp. Plum Perfect. HMF has too many pics. of blooms only, which don't tell much about a rose. I look over the bush-shot of your Mr. Lincoln in a pot, with rose-slug infestation.

    Rose-slug larvae breed on moist-surface. The potting soil is peat-moss-based, excellent for holding moisture on top. My roses IN THE GROUND don't have rose-slug, because my soil is rock-hard-dry clay. But my rose in a poor-drainage POT, has the most rose-slug, since its surface stay moist longer for larvae to hatch.

    Golden Fairy tale bush-shot is FANTASTIC. Pat Henry of Roses Unlimited is wonderful, I changed my order tons of time on her, and she charged me zero money. Chamblee's charges people $2 per change. Jim, Prairie Harvest has strong fragrance, plus light yellow, plus LESS PETALS ... very much like my Honey Bouquet. Both Honey Bouquet and dark-red Firefighter are Japanese-B-magnets. JB like fragrance and less petals.

    Yesterday I killed 2 JB on Frederic Mistral (fragrant light pink, but more petals than Prairie Harvest). None of my other roses have JB, only Fred. Only 5 JB for this year, thanks for last brutal winter. I notice with the warmer the winter, more JB. 2010 cold-winter, 2011 summer: less JB, they left my zillion-petals Austin roses alone, only single-petal Knock-outs got devoured. 2011 warmer & wetter winter & 2012 summer: tons of JB, my red-Firefighter rose was worst-affected, due to the strong fragrance & less petals. 2012 cold winter & 2013 summer: 1/2 the amount of JB compared to last year, but Honey Bouquet was still badly devoured. 2013 brutal winter & 2014 summer: only 5 JB so far on the fragrant & less-petals like Frederic Mistral, and NONE on white Bolero nor white Mary Mag. since these have zillion of tight petals.

    Below is a bouquet in July, you can see upper left light-pink Frederic Mistral with less petals, thus a JB-magnet, The fragrance also attracts JB. HMF is NOT accurate on their petal-count, David Austin catalog has the most accurate petal-counts.

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dr. Roush compiled a long list of Buck roses, with disease-resistant rating. He gave Earth Song a 0, means no BS, and Prairie Harvest and Distant Drums a 1, means little BS. Dr. Roush has acidic & loamy soil, since he grows Rugosa, with very dark-green leaves.

    The vigor of the root determines the disease-resistant. My 2 most clean roses now are: multiflora Blue Mist (solid 2-gallon-rootball), Radio Times (big root like a tree). The Kordes Golden Fairy Tale has very vigorous root, which does well in Jean Marion's alkaline & dry Idaho soil. I should had bought that instead of Honey Bouquet ... although someone warned me that Honey Bouquet barely survived her zone 6b winter.

    Paul in CT informed me of how stingy own-root Eglantyne is, but I bought it anyway (I like to experiment). Paul raved about Golden Fairy tale in HMF: paul_zone5ct - "Buy this rose! Ironclad, no disease, winter-hardy, putting out huge candelabras of blooms. As the bud opens, it looks like the finest exhibition hybrid tea, then becomes quartered when open. Can't go wrong here." Bloom of Golden Fairy tale is 4 1/2" with lots of petals.

    Blue Mist root is spreading, typical of multiflora. It's 100% clean in both drought and soaking wet. I had a Kordes Rose, Deep Purple, with a wimpy root that can't acid-phosphatase. It was stingy in blooms, came down with B.S. when my clay became rock-hard (thanks to the calcium hydroxide in tap). Deep Purple died this past winter. The vigor of the root determines both disease-resistance and winter-survival. Below is my Deep Purple, it was tiny, like 1.5' x 1' even in 2nd year ... compare that to the vigorous reported size of Kordes Golden Fairy tale, 4' to 5' tall with tons of blooms.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Dr. Roush's rating of Buck roses in DR

    This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Aug 9, 14 at 13:22

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ok I just read a post from Kate in Kansas that her Easter Basket got hit hard last winter and its still recovering but so is a lot of her other roses. And it did get some blackspot...

    enchantedrose & Strawbhill, Blooms only average 2 3/4 inches on Easter Basket if that matters to anyone...

    I'm hoping 2 light colored roses still does not attract Jb's...
    I'm only planting 2 light colored roses the rest will be darker...
    Another thing that may work to our advantage is that hardly anybody in our neighbor plants flowers, etc. anymore...
    Sure a flower here or a rose there but that's about it...

    Just hoping....LOL

    They say fragrance draws JB's also... Might be something to it as we have had mostly non fragrant flowers (darker colored) for years and have hardly seen any Jb's in that time period ...

    This post was edited by jim1961 on Sat, Aug 9, 14 at 13:20

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I lean more toward other theorys on blackspot since that's what my own experiences are telling me...

    But we all have our own opinions and I respect them all...
    Cause who knows? lol

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    (Report from New Jersey on Plum Perfect Rose:)

    Posted by farmerduck NJ (My Page) on Sat, Aug 9, 14 at 8:31
    Jim -- I planted it as a band this spring. I haven't seen a bloom yet, but the bush so far is fast growing and very, very disease resistant. It is about 2 or 3 feet tall now, and has maintained all its leaves even though I do not spray. It is competing with various perennials, and my observation is that this one has great vigor on its own root.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Plum Perfect thread

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim: I'm testing the theory of blackspot strain, by NOT SCRAPING ANY COW MANURE OFF. I simply will top that with either composted horse manure, or my own clay, let's see if they improve.

    Last year I mulched my roses with acidic cocoa mulch, pH 5.6, which stays wet after watering. Cocoa mulch is the dry & flaky husks of cocoa bean pods. Even DR & vigorous Christopher Marlowe broke out in BS with that acidic & wet stuff on top. So I threw my alkaline clay on top of Christopher Marlowe, and he became 100% clean. I posted both before, and after pics. in an old thread.

    Blackspots will occur if the conditions are right: humid night, prolonged rain, or topped with acidic stuff that stays wet long. BS will occur if the plant is under stress: poor-drainage clay that hurt root-growth, or salty fertilizer gunking on top, or too much phosphorus, too much fungal promoter like iron and manganese, and not enough potassium.

    My Comte de Chambord go in cycles: was a BS fest when it was in a poor-drainage pot. Became clean in alkaline clay. Clean again when I moved it. Broke out in B.S. after its 1st flush. Gave it potassium ... grew new leaves & plus a heavy-2nd-flush. Broke out in B.S. again after the flush ends. What I see is a depletion of nutrients, esp. potassium, after end-of-flush, or caused by roots' inability to absorb nutrients due to wimpy root, or poor drainage.

    Lynn in Northern CA with thin soil on top of NO-drainage mountain granite, reported that folks there use calcium nitrate. Why? I notice that roses on poor-drainage clay are more susceptible to diseases. They don't grow new leaves as fast ... nitrogen is needed. Calcium is need to strengthen roots.

    Roses on a raised bed are much more vigorous with tons of leaves. Below is Scepter'd Isle rose when it was a 1-gallon own-root from Chamblee's. It became taller than me at the end of summer, 100% clean. It's in a raised bed, good drainage which promotes best root-growth.

  • enchantedrose
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim~thanks for the link on Plum Perfect rose and clearing up the height. It seems that there are a few errors at HMF. They list Brother's Grimm as under 2 feet but everywhere else it's listed as 3-4 ft. Maybe it depends where it's growing and whether it's own root or not so I guess the great experiment will continue. I just hope we don't wind up in the poor house by the time we're done, lol!!

    Strawberry~Thanks for the info on your rose rooting with willow branches. I'm going to try the rooting hormone and see if it helps promote rooting.
    I repotted the worst Munstead Wood, completely rinsing the soil from the roots, rinsing the pot, stripping the leaves and potting in the Vigoro Organic soil with some lime, compost and a bit of wood ash sprinkled on top. Hopefully this will do the trick. I put some lime on the other 2 and compost but they weren't as bad as the third one. I bought these from 2 different vendors but I don't know if the worst one was from the same vendor as the better one or not.
    I'll keep you and Jim posted on how this works out.
    Sharon

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My guess is there are many factors that help kickstart blackspot in roses.

    No two roses are alike even though they are the same type... (Like two Easy Does It roses)
    They can both grow different (Vigor of plant) (One could be blackspot resistant and one not in the same location...)

    I have personally seen roses of the same type have much different vigor compared to the other ones.

    BUT I have never personally seen two of the same rose with one being very disease resistant and another one not.

    I have 7 Double Knockouts and all of them are resistant to blackspot.

    I had 5 Sunrise at Heirlooms... ALL got severe blackspot and lost 90% of there leaves.

    I had 2 Courageous roses that both fell to BS.

    So something I just never seen yet...

    On and on I could go...lol

    So many things to consider it makes my head swim...lol

    I have so many questions on every theory there is about Blackspot.... lol

    So instead of driving myself crazy trying to figure out all the answers I'll just hopefully locate blackspot resistant roses...lol

    As long as a rose keeps 80+% of its leaves I'd be happy.

    Do you realize that every rose I tried growing here dropped 90+% of its leaves by the end of August?
    Some before that... Actually Thomas Afflecks doing good compared to all the other ones TA has only lost 30%- 40% of its leaves so far....lol
    (Excluding Double Knockout, Carefree Sunshine, Mister Lincoln...)

    Strawberryhill, do you know Kim Rupert? On gardenweb he is known as Roseseek? His name is also on these blackspot papers I have here from David.

    This post was edited by jim1961 on Sat, Aug 9, 14 at 22:37

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I dug up at least 15 roses in my garden ... either to give them away, or to fix the soil. I notice that the roses that got the most tap-water, also have soil that's like concrete ... despite being previously fluffy. Then I researched on calcium hydroxide added to tap water, and found that it's the same ingredient to make concrete. Calcium hydroxide is UNSTABLE and binds with nutrients in soil, plus making soil more sticky.

    That's why roses are healthier when 1st planted in neutral potting soil, but they become stressed out later: gunking of salty fertilizer on top, or nutrients-tied-up, thanks to alkaline-tap-water. So I e-mailed my observation to Predfern, a Ph.D. in Quantum Chemistry in my Chicagoland.

    He agreed, and sent me this link on the difference between calcium carbonate and calcium hydroxide in tap water. Here's an excerpt from the below link:
    "The calcium carbonate behaves like fine-grained limestone, a natural material that buffers groundwater pH and has a LOW solubility, causing water hardness. Calcium hydroxide has a higher solubility and pH .... Calcium hydroxide reacts with a wide variety of finely divided siliceous materials (pozzolans) to form cement compounds ... Mixing a lime material with a soil can start the pozzolanic reactions. This will convert the clays (and other pozzolanic materials) in the soil to a cement type compound. "

    I tested the above by spreading gritty lime around Radio Times. Unlike calcium-hydroxide in tap water, that lime didn't hurt its blooming. Radio Times is both clean, bloom lots, and when I dumped a bucket on water, it drained FAST, rather than float over.

    One week of being dry & hot. Today I watered my roses by dumping 5-gallon bucket on top (fixed with sulfate of potash & molasses). The cleanest roses: Blue Mist, Radio Times, Duchess de Rohan, Evelyn, Pat Austin, Christopher Marlowe ... they all drain fast, zero water-loss via flooding-over.

    The BS-fest roses: the water flood over, didn't sink in. That's from poor-drainage underneath, or top-soil being HARDENED by alkaline tap. Last year I dug up a few of those roses, and found concrete on top, that's where the tap-water glued my clay together. From that time on, I always lower my tap-water pH with sulfate of potash The first thing that alkaline tap-water binds up is potassium. That's why folks soften their hard-water with potassium chloride (high salt index of 116.2, versus 43 for sulfate of potash).

    The advantage of layers of horse manure & alfalfa meal on top: 1) balance of calcium & potassium to buffer acidic rain water 2) layers of such are fluffy & great for drainage 3) such low-dose fertilizer are gentle for plants, and won't stress them like salty sewage sludge gunking on top ... Milorganite made a few of my roses into BS fest.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Environmental effects of lime

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our soils is wet but still drains well... No standing water at all...
    And since I removed a lot of mulch the soil actually is drying up a bit...I did not realize it but I had some areas 4-5 inches thick with shredded wood much... :-/

    When we moved here that mystery rose was growing in bare soil. I just left it like that and it grew and bloomed good without any help from me.

    I knew little about pruning then so I would wait until it leafed out then just cut off what looked dead...lol
    Sometimes that would be in June...lol
    Mystery rose had little winterkill on its canes most years.
    Maybe had to prune off 10 inches or less...
    Other than that we did nothing.

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm glad you experiment Strawberryhill! Without experiments new things would never be found... :-)

    I like the idea of hopefully having Mycorrhizae colonize our rose roots some day and that requires I go back to my old ways of taking care of plants/roses...

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim: Thanks for the encouraging words. I experiment enough, will stick to what worked in the past: horse manure & alfalfa & sulfate of potash, plus gypsum in the planting hole.

    I checked my few roses mulched with bagged COW MANURE from Menards: they show salt-burn, in addition to leaf-loss. I would have to scrape all the manure off, before the next rain comes.

    The roses in the front which I dug at least 2 feet down, and removed the bottom layer of sticky clay & big rocks ... they are clean & lush foliage in my alkaline soil. If I dump a 5-gallon bucket on those roses, the water drain IMMEDIATELY. The composition of soil has a lot to do with disease-resistance.

    In contrast, Yves seedling rose which I DID NOT dig deep enough ... I got nervous about the electric cables & Comcast wire buried nearby. So I dug only 1 feet, and dumped the entire huge bag of MG-moisture-control potting soil, 55 qt. It loses 90% of its leaves during last month heavy rain, blood meal and Milorganite only made it worse. Picture taken today.

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim: I look at your "mystery rose" again, with its small leaves and cluster-blooms ... definitely has multiflora parentage like my Blue Mist. Multiflora-parentage like "Easy Elegance" series are cluster-root, and can handle prolonged wetness well. NOT so with straight-stick-down root, like Dr. Huey or Honey Bouquet.

    Yesterday I dug up my clean Duchess of Rohan, to move to a sunnier spot. It has cluster root, very much like Blue Mist. Jim, in your rainy climate, and wet clay, multiflora would be best. Multiflora is a cluster & spreading root, rather than a straight long stick down like Dr. Huey. Deep-root like Dr. Huey would be best for well-drained soil and dry climate.

    My Carding Mill bloomed today. I got it from Heirloom-free-shipping sale, July 18, or 3 weeks ago. For trees, there's a saying, "spend more money on the planting hole, than the tree itself." True, many of my neighbors spend $$$ for big trees, then they die in heavy rain and poor-drainage wet clay. Or else they die during hot & dry drought. Same with roses, I would rather buy band-size, then dig a good hole with the right stuff for disease-prevention.

    Roses Unlimited is right in recommending these for the planting hole: gypsum, lime, alfalfa meal, and organic-slow-released fertilizer.

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our Double Knockouts do not mind wet soil either...
    Wonder what there root system is like?

    Our soil has dried out a lot since I removed a lot of our excess mulch...

    Those tiny shredded pieces of wood were matted to the ground... Our soil can breathe now...lol

    I placed all the excess mulch up under our Viburnum Bush which seems to love moist soil....
    Been putting grass, small sticks, leaves etc. under that bush for years. It loves it!

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm excited about next Spring and trying those new roses
    I ordered.... :-)

    Gee it's going to be a long winter...lol

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim: Like you, I'm after quality, rather than quantity. I killed two roses today: Arthur Bell and Mirandy. Arthur Bell because it becomes single-petal yellow in hot weather, plus I'm allergic to its open stamens, can't sniff ... the scent is inferior compared to Golden Celebration. Arthur Bell root is tiny (about 5"), but woody.

    I also killed Mirandy, can't stand its thorny canes. My kid is having a playmate over weekly, they like to walk through my garden. Mirandy would be a hazard for them since it's next to the walk-way. I don't care for dark-red bloom. Mirandy is a straight woody stick down, more than foot long ... I don't see any clustering-root like Blue Mist or Duchess de Rohan.

    I spent 1/2 hour scraping off the cow manure from my roses. I'm going back to what I had been doing for the past 3 years: mulch with alfalfa and horse manure, plus watering with a bit of sulfate of potash. Alfalfa and horse manure both are high in calcium, thus no need for gritty lime (pH over 9).

    I notice a break-out in rose-slugs in the pots watered with molasses & sulfate of potash ... so I'll skip the molasses for pots. Wet and sugary only attracts insects.

    Found the pounds of nutrient per ton of cow-compost: 17.6 Nitrogen, 19.7 total phosphate, 36 calcium, 4 sodium, 37 iron, 22.8 aluminum, 1.1 manganese, less than 0.1 copper, and 0.2 zinc. You can see that the phosphorus number is high, iron is even higher than calcium, and aluminum is high. The government document on plant physiology stated: "The inhibition of root growth by Al (aluminum) is well established, yet a unifying mechanism for aluminum toxicity remains unclear."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1080602/

    **** From Straw: Aluminum is also high in pine bark, another fungal promoter.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Cow manure nutrients in lb. per ton

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You sound like me killing off roses...lol

    Scraping off cow manure sounds like loads of fun. Do you use the already composted cow manure or fresh...

    I'm not sure what all attracts Sawflies ( tiny wasps) which then lay eggs on roses. Sawfly larvae hatches and those darn rose slugs munch away. I have studied them a lot in the past few years but still have questions on my mind...lol

    I have roses that get rose slugs that have not even been fertilized and the blooms are not scented or anything.
    Does the sawfly look down and say ohhhh that looks like a good meal for my hungry larvae... ;-O

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I study the habits of rose slugs here a lot.
    I got lucky to get the below pics...lol
    I was taking pics of our curled rose slugs when a Yellow Jacket landed on the leaf down from where the rose slug was located. I started snapping pics and got these...

    {{gwi:293294}}

    {{gwi:293295}}

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim: that's awesome pics. of a wasp jumping on its prey, a rose slug. You are blessed with fantastic photography skill. Those are amazing pics.

    I scraped off bagged COMPOSTED cow manure bought from Menards. I threw my clay soil on top. Hopefully it rains tonight.

    Hubby bought for me $8 bale of alfalfa hay. That stuff is tough like strings, COULD NOT mix into the planting hole. I tried cutting with a clipper, but gave up. I put a wad of alfalfa hay on top of Yves-seedling rose (that lost 90% of its leaves). Let's see if that improve. The feed store doesn't have no-salt alfalfa-pellets ... that would be my top choice.

    Alfalfa hay have zero smell, quite clean. It's longer strands, and harder to break than straw even. My goal now has changed: fewer roses, but healthier. I get rid of the ones I don't like, and keep only some that I can take good care of. Roses demand lots of water to stay healthy. My goal is no longer acquiring more roses .. keeping them healthy makes more sense.

    This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Aug 10, 14 at 19:55

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our feed store does not carry salt free Alfalfa pellets either.
    Nor does it carry Alfalfa Meal.
    When I was experimenting with Alfalfa Meal I had to buy Dr Earths brand online.
    I never tried pellets...

    I would also rather have fewer healthy roses...

    I think you mentioned you had 50 roses... I'd be insane here with that many...lol

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thought I'd try something different tonight. Nite-time shot of Mister Lincolns flower buds can't wait till they open...
    (It takes so longgggg for ML buds to open) lol

    Anyhow you can really see Rose Slug damage too so not a good idea for a pic...lol... And after looking at pic I see Rose Slugs eating... :-O (on the left side)

    After spotting that Rose Slug in the pic I went outside under lights to look at ML leaves. I found two different types of rose slugs. (The Curled Rose Slug and the Common Rose Slug) way to many to pick off so I sprayed ML down with safers insecticide soap.

    Mister Lincoln is in a large container with regular MG potting soil and he gets fed weekly with 1 TBS of Gardenville Sea-tea into 1 gallon of water. I did lay banana peels under ML as a experiment to see if they got rid of Aphids but it did not work. The peels are still on top of the soil. Other than that nothing...

    This post was edited by jim1961 on Sun, Aug 10, 14 at 23:52

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim: I'm pretty sure that Molasses is the culprit, it happens EVERYTIME I use molasses as soluble-fertilizer. They use molasses to bait garden slugs. So rose slugs love that stuff. Plus potting soil is peat-based, and holds moisture on the surface LONG for slug-larvae to hatch.

    Here's the ingredients in Gardenville Fertilizer, listed from most to least %: "Compost Tea, Omega Protein Refined Fish Emulsion, Feed-Grade Molasses, Humic Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Nutri Leaf Soluble Fertilizer (Potassium Nitrate, Urea, Ammonium Phosphate, Potassium Phosphate, Copper EDTA, Iron EDTA, Manganese EDTA, Zinc EDTA, Sodium Borate, Ammonium Molybdate), Acadian Seaweed Extract."

    You can see that Molasses is the 3rd ingredient in Gardenville. Here's an excerpt from the below link: "Molasses may be added to some baits to attract slugs and snails."

    Here is a link that might be useful: Molasses as bati for slugs

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That very well could be Strawberryhill on the Molasses. I was going to use another fertilizer next year anyhow.
    I'm not sure what kind yet though... So I will make the change for sure...

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mister Lincolns getting there...lol

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I thought the yellow Marigolds I planted around our Double Knockout rose bed were just to bright...lol
    It seemed to take the focus off the red rose blooms.
    My eyes went straight to the bright yellow and I kinda got sick of the in your face brightness...lol

    I wish they had blue Marigolds...lol

    Anyhow I found these more softer colored Marigolds.
    I'll order some seeds and try them next year...

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I will not be getting Kordes "Rose of Hope" rose. Chamblees said the bloom size is only 1"-2". Too small!
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Its going to storm so I'm putting Mister Lincolns container on the porch so winds/rain do not ruin his bloom...lol
    I've waited so longggg!

    24 hours later:

    Found this pic from 2010 I think... Our new Roses Unlimited roses arrived and the cats were curious...lol
    (left to right: Outta the Blue, Distant Drums, & Livin Easy.)

    {{gwi:317988}}

    This post was edited by jim1961 on Tue, Aug 12, 14 at 9:41

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Farmerduck Plum Perfect rose is growing but he had no blooms this entire season. I suggested he look for Rose Midge. Well looks like he does have Rose Midge in his garden.

    How can we protect ourselves when we get new potted roses from rose midge being in the soil of the pot or on the rose itself?

    I hope enchantedrose computer did not go out again...

    Soak everything underwater for awhile?

    This post was edited by jim1961 on Tue, Aug 12, 14 at 9:44

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim: I love the light-yellow color of those marigolds, and your Mr. Lincoln has the red-color that I like. Mr. Lincoln was my favorite at the rose park, until they replaced that with Chrysler Imperial (blah-scent in cold weather & much shorter ... fall short of Mr. Lincoln in bush-beauty).

    I agree about soaking the entire plant from head to toe, to drown any eggs hidden in the top-growth of the plant.

  • enchantedrose
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim and Strawberry~ I'm finally back, using my husband's computer again. He got my computer to work with a different operating system, LINUX, but I need a windows computer for my jewelry business so we had to save everything from my old computer to the new. Right after we were done windows died!! but at least I was able to save all my files, folders, pics, etc to an external hard drive. Such a huge pain and so frustrating!!

    Jim~Your Mr. Lincoln is gorgeous and I love the soft colored marigolds. Good luck growing them. Too bad about the Rose of Hope blooms being so small. It seems like a lot of Kordes blooms are small. One I considered is Larissa but her flowers are tiny too.
    Rose midge~ugh!! I think your idea of soaking the roses to kill any insects is a really good idea. It would seem that 24 hours would be long enough without drowning the rose too. Growing these is hard enough without the plague of insects on top of the fungal diseases!! Too much.
    Strawberry~Congrats on your first "Carding Mill" bloom!! I'm still waiting for all of my bands to at least bloom once. Some are showing some black spot, Belinda's Dream, Carding Mill and Honey Bouquet. The potting soil has lime, should I sprinkle some on top of the pot too? Other than this set-back they are growing nicely and have at least one bud apiece. Princess Alexander of Kent has pm, should I be concerned about this too or is it just more of a cosmetic, unsightly issue? It has been humid here, cool but no rain so far although we're supposed to get a deluge tomorrow 1-2 inches of heavy rain.
    Any advice is always appreciated.
    Sharon

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Sharon: Powdery Mildew is a 1st sign of soil being too acidic or too salty for root to handle. I saw grafted-Perfume-Delight with bad PM in a pot at the store, after 1-week of rain. My Barcelona and Rose du Roi both got PM in potting soil, after 1-week of rain. I gave them gritty lime plus sulfate of potash, and PM went away.

    Belinda's Dream, Carding Mill and Honey Bouquet like it alkaline. My Honey Bouquet was clean for 2 years in my rock-hard alkaline clay, until I want it to bloom more: so I dug it up, and fixed the soil with acidic pine bark, plus gypsum. Big decline in health: it became wimpy and BS-fest. If there's too much calcium from gypsum or gritty lime, that will drive down potassium. Wimpy roots like Honey Bouquet need more potassium than normal.

    If there's too much phosphorus, iron, and aluminum like cow-manure, that will drive down potassium. My Marie Pavie is in worst shape in 3 years, lower leaves are all yellowish, from the cow manure. Phosphorus stresses plants, so does salt. See link below for pictures of how phosphorus stress alfalfa plants. Best ratios are 4 potassium to 1 phosphorus, and even less with roots which secret acids.

    Some blood meal to balance the potassium would help. I have been using blood meal for 3 years, no ill-effects whatsoever. I used blood meal on Rugosa-heritage Eglantyne, with good result. (Rugosa hates chemical fertilizer). I used blood meal on zero-leaves band-size Mirandy, with good result.

    The key to health is BALANCED, low-dose fertilizer, and horse manure with alfalfa meal is the best approach ... that would make it slightly alkaline, and less harsh than gritty lime at pH 9. Horse manure has balanced nutrients: potassium, iron, calcium, plus anti-fungal trace elements which were added to horse' feed. Another way is top-dress with Encap compost: I put lots inside tiny Sharifa Asma's planting hole, and it's clean & blooms lots, see picture below, taken today August 12, after transplanted.

    I'm going to take off the red lava rocks, I notice that my neighbor's roses with lava-rocks have more blooms, but less foliage. I prefer more foliage, since I have enough blooms already after fixing my hard-well water.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Purdue U. Extension research on phosphorus & potassium

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    enchantedrose, may I ask what size the pots were on the new roses? I mean were they HR baby bands or 1 gallon bands?
    (Belinda's Dream, Carding Mill and Honey Bouquet)

    Belindas Dream is suppose to be really BS resistant but no rose is BS resistant everywhere.... hummm

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I would take care of Powdery Mildew fairly quickly with maybe some sort of organic spray because it can spread to other roses. Or maybe keep it away from your other roses while you experiment with soil, etc....

    I regret NOT spraying Thomas Affleck awhile back as he has been fighting bad PM mostly since I planted him.
    Some leaves curled so bad they died and fell off of TA...
    And TA is getting worse and worse SO I have given up on him... To late for me to spray now and I do not know what I'd even spray with... This is the first rose I ever seen with PM on here...
    .
    Sorry to hear your computer died enchantedrose...

    This post was edited by jim1961 on Tue, Aug 12, 14 at 22:33

  • enchantedrose
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim and Strawberry~Hope all is well in your little corner of the gardening world.
    Strawberry~thanks for the info. on powdery mildew. Another battle to wage! My grafted Zephrine Drouhin has a very bad case of PM right now, Princess Alex., grafted also, isn't as bad but still some. It has been very humid here but also cool, so optimum conditions for PM and BS. We finally got some rain though, about 2 inches worth, so that is good!

    Jim~Carding Mill, Belinda's Dream and Honey Bouquet are all HR bands. There is not a lot of BS, just a few leaves here and there, Carding Mill being the worst and only one of the two has it so kind of odd. I sprinkled some powdered lime on the pot soil to see if this would help. I have looked at liquid lime, I don't know if spraying the leaves with a diluted solution of it would help or cause some other damage since it's caustic. I'll just have to see how it looks in a few days to see if the bs is clearing up. Environment seems to be so key to disease susceptibility. I guess we just need to experiment to find what works best in our own garden. This method gets kind of expensive though! On the plus side all of my other roses look good and my Buck "Folksinger" is covered with her second flush of buds. This is the one that was cut to the ground late spring because of severe winter damage. No bs at all. I hope your Buck roses do as well for you as this one is doing for me.
    Thanks for your computer "condolences" ;-) My husband switched all of my files over to his computer and is using mine with LINUX. Of course now it's running flawlessly!! but at least I'm back on line and have access to all my files.
    Here are a few pics of what's blooming right now. I have buds on almost everything, I can't wait till I get the very first bloom from my little baby bands.
    Sharon

    Folksinger Shrub shot.

  • enchantedrose
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Climbing Compassion

  • enchantedrose
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First flower on Clair Matin

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, Sharon, for the blooms in your garden. Clair Martin, Ambridge, and Compassion are lovely. I'm glad for the info. about the scent of Ambridge ... I'm grow roses for scents alone.

    Recently I place an order through local feedstore for Standlee alfalfa pellets, hubby will pick that up next Friday. I'm very impressed with growth from mulching with alfalfa hay ... looks messy on top, but no diseases nor rose slugs. NPK of alfalfa hay is 2.45 / 0.5 / 2.1 ... It's quite dry and fluffy like straw. Topping with greens like that promote earthworms and nitrogen-fixing bacteria.

    Alfalfa hay doesn't mat down like grass clippings (smaller-size). The hay I got was $8 for a bale, and it's fluffy & stringy .. looks like a bird's nest, rather than wet-grass-gunking-on-top. Last fall I trimmed my tomatoes, and put their branches around roses. When I dug that spot, there was lots of earthworms underneath. A few of my roses did nothing with blood meal, broke out B.S. with Milorganite, and finally gave clean-growth with alfalfa hay.

    The verdict: I like alfalfa hay better than alfalfa meal for mulching. But for putting in the hole, alfalfa hay is a disaster ... already tried that, and won't recommend that. Alfalfa meal is GREAT for the planting hole, Rose Unlimited recommended 2 cups of alfalfa meal, 1 cup of lime, 1 cup of gypsum, 2 gallons compost, 2 gallons peat moss, 2 gallons top soil, and 2 gallons clay.

    For my 1st year pots, I mixed 2 cups of alfalfa meal per 2 gallon of potting soil. I got the best quality 1st blooms: see Arthur Bell below. Once Arthur Bell is in my clay, it produced single-petals, rather than fabulous double-petals like the alfalfa meal & potting soil combo. See pic. below:

  • jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gee Strawberryhill those yellow blooms look show-room new! :-) Wow!

    Did you get your Alfalfa Hay from a feed-store Strawberryhill? Thanks!

    enchantedrose, great pics of your roses! Yep lots of buds is what we all want! :-)

  • enchantedrose
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jim and Strawberry~
    Strawberry, I second Jim. What a stunning rose. Does it repeat for you? HMF lists it as only occasionally repeating but it sure is gorgeous!
    Thanks for the info on alfalfa hay and pellets. I can get both locally, the only thing I can't find locally is alfalfa meal.

    Jim~Lots of blooms is right. Requiring little care is def. a plus. Now if they only had scent they'd be perfect.
    Sharon

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Sharon: Arthur Bell is drought-tolerant, disease-resistant, fast-repeat, but I killed it since I can't cut for the vase, the open-stamens make me sneeze. Golden Celebration gives more petals & better scent, plus no open-stamens. Below is how Arthur Bell floribunda looks like in my clay, less petals than its 1st year in potting soil mixed with alfalfa meal.

  • strawchicago z5
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    bump up to note that Annie L. McDowell likes gypsum in the planting hole for calcium.

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