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Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on
Fri, Sep 27, 13 at 10:06

The Russian GERDA23 has the best garden in HMF. She has alkaline clay, awesome garden. See link:

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=99.4875364&tab=9

I asked her how she did it, she wrote in Russian, I had to run through 4 translators. GERDA23 wrote:

"Early spring nitrate. After 7 days, 1/2 bucket of cow manure under each bush. Then double-superphosphate, ashes for micronutrients, potassium-sodium humate (80% humic acid). Two times a year top dress with chicken manure. In the fall feed roses with grass and compost.

My Sharifa Asma-2 yrs, good seedlings, blooms profusely with soluble phosphate-potassium. In spring sodium-metabisulfite for fungicide." GERDA23

***** From Strawberryhill:

GERDA is in zone 6, Russia, with alkaline clay. She uses sodium humate (80% humic acid, pH of 9 to 10). It's smart for the Russian to spread sodium humate and wood ash on surface, both very alkaline to prevent fungal diseases.

How do I adopt the Russian's regime to my climate? I already bought compost & cow manure for late fall fertilization right before the ground freezes, per U. of Illinois recommendation.

I need a jump-start for my short summer by raking in leaves, then dump alkaline soil on top. Acidic leaves or alfalfa on top would breed fungi.

Spring time I'll get cow or horse manure. After 1st and 2nd flush I'll top-dress with chicken manure. When we get into hot & dry mid-summer, I'll switch to soluble phosphorus & potassium as in grains, or very diluted MG Bloom Booster.

See below link for GERDA23 amazing Russian garden, tons of blooms, zone 6, alkaline clay.

Below is Sweet Promise hybrid tea in my garden, fertilized with horse manure and chicken manure. Picture taken during last year's drought with high heat at 100 degrees, you can see the burnt grass behind:

Here is a link that might be useful: Russian rose garden in HMF

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Sep 30, 13 at 10:25


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Prickles (Bailey) in Antique roses forum posted a super-loaded Young Lycidas rose with 150+ blooms per spring flush. He fertilized with salmon bits and shrimp shells.

There's more to seafood than just high phosphorus, salmon is high in B vitamins, including B12, B3, tryptophan, vitamin D, Omega-3 fatty acids .... a total of 80 nutrients.

Can't find NPK of shrimp shell, but I found NPK of lobster shell of 4.6 / 3.52 / 0. Fresh fish has NPK 6.5 / 3.75 / 0 ... also high in phosphorus & nitrogen for blooming. Upon further research, I found that phosphorus needs nitrogen and trace-elements to maximize blooming.

There's more to blooming than the high phosphorus number, there's trace elements, such as boron, zinc, copper, etc. Take horse manure with NPK 0.44 / 0.17 / 0.35, quite low in phosphorus but high in trace elements..

Take leaves such as oak with NPK 0.8 / 0. 35 / 0.15. I have a few roses fertilized with leaves, I never water them for the past 6 years, and they are healthy & bloom well.

Take Barley grain with 0.36 % of phosphorus, or oatmeal with 0.35% of phosphorus, compare to alfalfa pellets with 0.23% phosphorus. I get more blooming fertilized with soluble ground-up grains: corn meal, oats, rye, and barley. There's trace-elements, vitamins, and essential fatty acids in grains that give shiny luster to leaves.

Take blood meal, with many amino acids. I got Mirandy as a tiny band, with 3 yellow leaves. I tried chemical nitrogen, didn't work. I tried chicken manure, didn't work. Finally I tried blood meal (has iron) ... Mirandy greened up immediately with new shoot. See amino acids profile of blood meal, amazing!

http://www.ingredients101.com/bloodmeal.htm

Below is a spray of Radio Times rose, fertilized with horse manure and chicken manure last spring. I counted over 40 blooms for a small 2nd-year own-root:

Here is a link that might be useful: NPK chart of Organic fertilizers

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Sep 27, 13 at 11:17


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Here's an excerpt from the below site "Poultry manure (chicken in particular) is the richest animal manure in N-P-K. Chicken manure is considered "hot" and must be composted before adding it to the garden. Otherwise, it will burn any plants it comes in contact with."

http://www.plantea.com/manure.htm

According to NC University, chicken manure has highest nutrients among manures: NPK 1.6 / 1.8 / 2.0 for dry chicken manure, and NPK of 0.9 / 0.5 / 0.5 for fresh chicken manure, vs. horse manure at 0.6 /0.3 /0.5

I get way-more yields on my fruit trees with Lilly Miller NPK 10-5-4 with chicken manure. My fruit trees were stingy with chemical NPK 10-10-10.

Peter Schneider in his book, "Right Roses, Right Place" ... He grows over 1,000 varieties in Ohio. He wrote how horse manure promotes Rose Midge. At first I didn't believe him, but after seeing rust and black spot with this year's new horse manure on an acidic bedding of straw and wet wood shavings .. I should not had gotten that stuff when I saw mushrooms growing in the pile.

University of Colorado does not recommend frequent manure for hot and dry climate, due to the salt content. Chicken manure is highest in salt among all the manures, best applied in cool and wet spring.

Found a link on why chicken manure is awesome as fertilizer: it's high in boron, zinc, and copper .... most deficient in alkaline conditions .. folks put minerals in chicken-feed. Some excerpts from link below:

"She told me that no matter how much home-made compost or cover crops they used, they just couldn't get the growth response and production they wanted without bringing in chicken manure from one of the commercial chicken farms in the area. ....Interestingly, although the Phosphorus and Potassium levels were high, they weren't exceptional. It was the Copper, Zinc, and Boron that were through the roof.

It turns out that commercial livestock growers and feed manufacturers are well aware of the value for minerals in the diet ... I doubt that one could find a cow pasture in the country that doesn't have a mineral block sitting out, and those aren't just 'salt blocks", they have the whole spectrum of trace minerals."

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil minerals for Organic garden and chicken manure

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Sep 30, 13 at 10:52


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

this spring, I used my own fresh chick poo, let it aged for 2 weeks, one big cup of poo in10 gal container, totally mixed well then, applied freely on the rose plants, plenty of hosed water afterward, so not to burn any roots,

please find the attached colourful Honey Perfume, the year before, the 2nd or 3rd flush was yellow instead of this bright apricot color.


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Another example of diluted own chick poo, rescue cl Don Juan $1.99 5gal back in Aug 2004. I am not kidding.


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Close up shot of the cl Don Juan rose


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Hi seaweed: WOW.... that's a lot of blooms on your Don Juan rose, and the colors look great, esp. on deep orange/yellow Honey Perfume rose. I saw Honey Perfume at the alkaline rose park nearby, the color was yellow. Most of their roses are pale, fertilized with chemical high in phosphorus.

I tested chemical high in phosphorus on Stephen Big Purple rose, and it gave me this gaudy red color, rather than purple. See bouquet below:

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Sep 29, 13 at 13:01


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Here's info. on trace elements of manures by University of Wisconsin:

"Average concentrations for 87 dairy, 10 swine and 24 poultry manure samples are in Table 1. Swine and poultry manure contained similar amounts of Zn (zinc), Cu (Copper) and Mn (Manganese) and was approximately 10-100 times higher than in dairy manure ... Swine and poultry manure also contained about 10 times more Selenium than Dairy."

Manganese is least available in my alkaline clay, rather than iron. Chicken manure turned a multiflora rose from bronzy-yellow chlorosis into dark-green and lots of blooms.

Unfortunately that chicken manure was in Lilly Miller 10-5-4, with added sulfur, and chemical nitrogen (high salt). High nitrogen increases soft growth in plant tissue, attracting aphids and mites. The RRD mites don't have penetrating mouth-piece, but they can invade easier if the tissue is made soft with excess nitrogen and acid-fertilizer.

I made the mistake of applying that stuff the 2nd time in hot June ... Last year we had a drought, that rose came down with RRD. It was next to a tree. I learn my lesson to use dry chicken manure alone, NPK 1.6 / 1.8 / 2.0, less salt.

See Grandma's Blessing rose before it came down with RRD. That's the only rose with RRD in my garden.

Here is a link that might be useful: University of Wisconsin and trace elements in manures

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Sep 30, 13 at 11:15


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Have you used Mills Magic Rose Mix on your roses or know anything about it?

Here is a link that might be useful: Mills Magic Rose Mix


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Hi Jessica: Thank you for the above link. Karl Bapst gave this recipe for Mills Magic Rose Mix:

"Equal amounts of Alfalfa Meal, Fish Meal, Cottonseed Meal, Blood Meal, Bone meal, Milorganite or an activated sewage sludge." Karl Bapst

Mills Magic Mix with fish meal is rich in nutrients, except it's best for sandy or loamy soil, but not for heavy clay. The salt in sewage sludge are not good for clay soil (already high in salt).

Bone meal as a source of phosphorus doesn't travel down much in heavy clay. One study showed that phosphorus moved maximum of 1 inch per year, and much less for heavy clay. Bone meal can't be utilized when the pH is above 7, according to U. of Colorado Extension.

Someone in the Roses Forum reported killing a dozen of her roses by fertilizing with Mills Magic Mix every month. I got curious and looked up the ingredients: it has sewage sludge (bio-solids), which is high in salt. If you have clay soil, it's best to choose less salt organics. Diane in Southwest Idaho (dry & alkaline clay) has good results with Rose-Tone.

I once posted a thread comparing the ingredients of Lily Miller for Roses and Rose-Tone: Rose-Tone is lower-in salt, less chemical. Both Lily Miller and Rose-Tone has dry-chicken manure. Dry chicken-manure is cheap & effective and sold everywhere. I used that last year and my roses were much healthier than this year with my chemical experiments.

I like organics since it's lower in salt ... the salt in chemical fertilizer can destroy soil microbes necessary for nitrogen-fixation, and the suppressing of pathogenic fungi. Roses do best with frequent, but low-dose fertilizer as in manures. Below is Marie Pavie, fertilized with horse manure (on wood-chips bedding) mixed with alfalfa meal:


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Thanks Strawberry! I don't think I have clay soil but it can become packed and hard to dig but its also loose.

Bio sludge sounds toxic and not good for anything!

Fertilizing with so which do you like better Lilly's or rose tone?

Composted chicken poo is expensive where I found it.


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Hi Jessica: Here's the ingredients in Lilly Miller for roses: Chicken manure, alfalfa meal, ammonium sulfate, ammonium phosphate, sulfate of potash, calcium and sodium borate, Ferrous, Manganese and zinc oxides, sodium molybdate. NPK 5-8-4, with 4% calcium, 4% sulfur, and 0.1% iron.

Here's the ingredients in RoseTone: Feather meal, chicken manure, cocoa meal, bone meal, aflafa meal, green sand, humates, sulfate of potash, plus beneficial bacteria. NPK 4-3-2. Personally I think Epsoma Tomatoe tone at NPK 3-4-6 is better for roses: more of potassium via greensand, plus more phosphorus for alkaline clay.

Jessica, it depends on your soil. My soil is rock-hard alkaline clay, pH 7.7, with phosphorus deficiency, so I prefer Lily Miller with trace elements to sprinkle on top. I had bad luck using Jobes Organics with bone meal, the bone meal gunked up on top, and burnt my Deep Purple rose.

For the planting hole, I prefer Jobes Organics (bone meal & beneficial microbes NPK 2-7-4). I used RoseTone in the planting hole and its NPK 4-3-2 is mild, no burning whatsoever. Phosphorus mobility is a 1, doesn't move much, so bone meal high in phosphorus is best in the planting hole.

I once posted a thread in Antique Roses forum entitled: "RoseTone, greensand, kelp, and sulfate of potash" ... here are some useful info. regarding organic sources of potassium:

•Posted by plantloverkat 9a north Houston (My Page) on
Wed, Apr 18, 12 at 12:23

"Strawberryhill, my soil also tests "very low" in potassium. I have used greensand when I prepare new beds. Here, some stores will sell a 40 pound bag for about the same price as the tiny 5 pound bags sold elsewhere. Just recently, I saw granite dust (40 LB. bag) being sold for the very first time. It is also on your list of sources of potassium.

I have used kelp meal also. I have just scattered it on the surface and watered it in. It does leave a lingering kelp odor for several days." PlantloverKat in Houston, TX

**** From Straw: I saw Alaska dry fish fertilizer at Menards $7 for a 3 lb. bag, with NPK 4-6-6. It has alfalfa meal, fish meal, cottonseedmeal, and kelp meal. Then I saw a bag of chicken manure, 25 lbs. for $8.99, with NPK 5-3-2.5

I chose Chickity-Do-Do manure since it's cheaper,, although stinkier. Lowe's also sells chicken manure for $3.99 for a smaller bag, and HomeDepot sells the same brand of chicken-manure. I'll put chicken manure for fall-fertilization before the ground freeze in Thanksgiving, then cover with dirt to winterize my roses in zone 5a.

Below link is a previous thread that I posted on organic sources of potassium:

Here is a link that might be useful: RoseTone, greensand, kelp, and sulfate of potash

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, May 14, 14 at 10:01


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Superphosphate vs. triple superphosphate

I spent hours researching why chemical phosphorus is bad for plant, and found that little is utilized by plants, the rest is quickly bound up with soil elements (calcium or magnesium) under alkaline conditions.

Superphosphate has a higher % of sulfur, and can be utilized by plants ... unfortunately I can't find that stuff. Triple-superphosphate is widely available, Hi-Yield product is triple-superphosphate, has less % of sulfur, and less utilized under alkaline conditions.

Here's an excerpt from the link below, by Malcolm Beck:

"When I started farming in the mid 50s, South East of San Antonio, The Texas A&M Ag and animal experts both recommended using super phosphate (0-20-0) or bone meal. Tests showed the soil low in phosphorus. Their recommendations proved beneficial to the plants and the grazing animals.

Then, some time during the 70s lawns, shrubs, trees, vegetables and flowers in San Antonio started yellowing from the lack of micronutrients. The problem was found to be iron, zinc and manganese being tied up by phosphate. The extension service started putting out bulletins telling everyone to stop using phosphate.

I never experienced these problems. But then, I had never used the new triple super phosphate that was now on the market. I asked one of the agricultural extension agents if the new 0-46-0 triple super phosphate could be causing all the problems .....

To make 0-20-0, rock phosphate is treated with sulfuric acid to make calcium phosphate (0-20-0) and calcium sulphate (gypsum); these are two natural products that seldom caused any problems.

To make 0-46-0, rock phosphate is treated with phosphoric acid. With this, much higher phosphate content, much higher N-P-K fertilizer formulas can be made. Less needs to be used. And it sells for a higher price with much better profits. " Malcolm Beck, Texas.

**** From Straw: I have the same problem as Malcolm Beck when I put triple super-phosphate in the planting hole , roses are still pale with chlorosis! Soluble triple-super-phosphate DID NOT green up roses either.... what greened up my roses were solubles with sulfur, either gypsum (calcium sulfate), or sulfate of potash (potassium sulfate).

Here is a link that might be useful: The hidden truth about commercial fertilizers

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Dec 8, 13 at 13:18


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

I had been using Scott's weed & feed for dandelions on my lawn for the past decade. I didn't realize how bad it was until Organic Gardening posted a petition to ban 2,4-D (it's a herbicide), which increased cancer, see below from eHow:

"Scotts Weed and Feed uses a combination of 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2-(2-Methyl-4-chlorophenoxy)propionic acid (mecoprop) for weed control. While 2,4-D breaks down relatively quickly, having a half-life of seven to 10 days, the slower-acting mecoprop may remain active for two months or more and is water soluble, making it a groundwater contamination risk, according to the Extension Toxicology Network

http://www.ehow.com/list_7587788_ingredients-scotts-weed-feed.html#ixzz2qfvqknqx

Another excerpt from link below: "Pesticides in weed and feed also end up inside. A study found that the 2,4-D levels inside homes were about ten times higher after it was applied to the lawn than before application."

http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/health/ehcsg/weed_feed.html

The cancer report is alarming for the herbicide 2,4-D, see below:

"The lawn pesticides, mancozeb and chlorothalonil have been classified by the EPA as "probable" cancer causing chemicals in humans, as they have been found to cause cancer in animals. Mancozeb has also been found to react with sunlight to form a new compound the EPA categorizes as a "known" human carcinogen.

The common lawn pesticide 2,4-D has been shown to increase the risk of lymphatic cancer in farmers six times the normal rate, according to a National Cancer Institute report.

Scientists believe that the use of lawn chemicals such as 2,4-D has been a significant factor in the 50% rise in non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma over the past 20 years in the American population. (World health Organization. 2,4-D Environmental Aspects. Geneva, Switzerland, 1989.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Pesticides and cancer

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, Jan 17, 14 at 13:36


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Do you guys use milky spore for Japanese beetle larvae?


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Hi vabyvlue: I checked into milky spores in the past, and after reading U. of Illinois Extension of the many variables which impede the success of milky spores, I decided against it. Some of the variables are:

" Ingestion of the bacteria does not always produce infection as spores may pass through the gut and be discharged with fecal matter ... In the 1980s, it turned out that a different but related bacteria was actually being produced, which had little activity on Japanese beetle grubs. As a result, products were withdrawn from the marketplace."

"Successful use of milky spore disease requires attention to environmental conditions, including temperature, moisture, soil structure, pH, and soil type. Efficacy of the disease may vary in cold temperatures; the spores are very cold-sensitive."

Second, milky spore affects only one species of white grubs; and, in some situations, the Japanese beetle may not be the only or the predominant species. Third, results may take several seasons, 3 to 5 years in cooler climates, so several years may lapse before adequate control of grubs is achieved. "

*** From Straw: U. of Illinois also cited the cost-prohibitive factor of milky spore. So for the fast years I spent my money feeding the birds. Birds are fast with eating the grubs.

I also did extensive research on the pros & cons of JB-traps. I tested one method of setting the traps FAR AWAY from my rose garden to trap beetles, then stomping on the bag with my feet, and dumping zillion of dead beetles out to feed the birds. It reduced my JB-infestation to less than 10 a day, which I can kill easily with my fingers.

Here is a link that might be useful: U. of Illinois Extension on milky spores

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Fri, May 2, 14 at 10:42


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Thanks! I've always stayed away from JB traps b/c I've heard that you'll attract more than your fair share but I might give them a try.

BTW, I'm going to try watering with molasses to enhance the pink color in roses. When do you begin watering with molasses? Once the plant sets buds? How often? Do you use powder or liquid molasses?

thanks again!


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Hi vabyvlue: Blackstrap molasses are high in potassium, calcium, and iron ... NPK of molasses is 3-1-5. I feed roses molasses when they develop tiny buds. Here's my rating of liquid molasses (edible for humans, with no preservative):

The molasses I used in my pots experiment was Brer Rabbit, inferior brand with 30 mg sodium, 10% potassium, 2% calcium, and 6% iron. I DON'T RECOMMEND THIS.

Much better-tasting for plants & recipes is Wholesome Organic Molasses, highest at 20% potassium (730 mg), 15% iron, 15% calcium, 0 sodium, and 10% B6. It's thicker than Plantation Molasses (600 mg) of potassium, 20% calcium, and 10 mg of sodium.

Tree of Life brand has 15 mg of sodium, 500 potassium, 20% iron .... That's the one that gave brownish spots on Gina's Rose. Could be from the high iron .. not impressed with the result.

Conclusion: Wholesome Organic Molasses is thickest so you'll get your money's worth. It has zero salt, and highest in potassium (730 mg), plus vitamin B6. It's sold for $6 per 16 fl. oz., one dollar more than Plantation brand at $5.

Health food aisle in local grocery store has both. The rose grower Seaweed in CA doesn't use molasses, but she uses compost (high in potassium & trace elements), plus chicken-manure (has trace elements), and her blooms are deep pink.

But I can't add more compost to my over-flowing ground, so molasses is a cheaper alternative for potassium, calcium, iron and trace elements. How often, and what dose for molasses with NPK 3-1-5 (potassium of 5)?

In U. of Kentucky research on Organic Fertilizers & Composts in tomato and pepper seedlings. Their conclusion: Fish emulsion NPK 5-1-1 and Omega 6-6-6 (blood meal, bone meal, sulfate of potash) are effective fertilizers, coming second to chemical fertilizer with higher nutrients NPK 20-10-20. High nitrogen was used due to leaching out from pots.

The best growth was achieved by using Peter's 20-10-20 at 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of water, 3 times a week. This was done in pots & greenhouse environment.

Since it's best to water roses in-ground only once a week, I would use 1 Tablespoon of molasses per 2-gallon of water, once the tiny buds are seen. Keep doing that until the blooms are done. Then start again when the buds are really tiny.

Below is a link that lists the vitamins and trace elements in blackstrap molasses.

Here is a link that might be useful: Blackstrap molasses nutritional profile

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, May 3, 14 at 13:39


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Thank you very much for your words of wisdom! I'm going to try watering down my pink roses with molasses! :)


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Strawberryhill,

I got my sulfate of potash from kelp4less. How much do I use for a 2 gallon watering can? How frequently?

Thank you!


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Hi vabyvlue: Thanks for a great question!

Most municipals add quicklime (calcium oxide) to tap water to prevent corrosion of pipes. According to Wikipedia, quicklime is made by heating limestone to above 1, 517 F degree, to produce a VERY UNSTABLE product. Calcium oxide is a key ingredient for making cement.

That's why my roses watered with tap water, have this calcified "concrete" soil on top, which I have to poke holes frequently. My tap water pH is over 8, very alkaline.

Potassium chloride, with salt index of 116.2, is used to soften HARD water. Sulfate of potash NPK 0-0-50 has a lower salt index, at 43, high potassium, plus 23% sulfur. The sulfur part will offset the calcium hydroxide in tap water.

How much to use for 2-gallon, and how frequently? In U. of Kentucky experiment with vegetable seedlings, organic Omega 6-6-6 (blood meal, bone meal, and sulfate of potash) BEAT Fish emulsion performance. The chart for increase in dry weight showed for tomato seedlings: 332 increase with fish emulsion, 502 increase with Omega, and 732 with chemical 20-10-20.

Chemical has the upper edge in pots, due to high nitrogen, with that leaching out of pots. But high chemical nitrogen isn't good for plants in-ground, due to accumulation of salt. Plus the bacteria in soil & compost can fix nitrogen for plants.

Peter's NPK 20-10-20 has sulfate of potash at 20, is used at 1/2 teaspoon per gallon at 3 times a week .. but that's for pots that leach out nutrients. Kelp4Less sulfate of potash NPK is 0-0-50, more than double, I would use only 1 teaspoon per week mixed with 2 gallon of water.

That would offset the calcium hydroxide in tap water. I used sulfate of potash last fall, with IMMEDIATE dark-green & glossy leaves, and tons of buds. See link below for U. of Kentucky experiment, you see how big the seedlings & dark green leaves with chemical 20-10-20 (sulfate of potash at 20) ... next best is package manure (cow manure), then worm casting, and worst is thoroughbred horse manure (tiny yellowish plants).

Here is a link that might be useful: U. of Kentucky organics and vegetable seedlings


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RE: Fertilizing: your success and why organics?

Great information! Thank you!! :)


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