I spread homemade compost under and around our roses but that's all I have ever done with compost.

Our main insect problem here is rose slugs (sawfly larvae) in which I tried planting marigold flowers around our roses this year and the rose slug damage is very little this year. So next year I'll try the marigolds again...
Safers Insecticide soap would be the mildest application that works for rose slugs if needed...

As for disease's such as Blackspot and Powdery Mildew in my opinion it is best to plant roses that are more resistant to those diseases if you want a no spray garden with little fuss..

Wish I could be more help... All I can say is try making some aereated compost tea and see how it does for you...

This post was edited by jim1961 on Thu, Sep 25, 14 at 22:21

The best tactic against the disease roses might get is to select roses that tolerate the various diseases. (Total resistance to diseases is rare to non-existent.)

Aerated compost tea didn't do a thing in my garden.

Hi Kousa: Welcome to the Organic Rose forum. Thank you for your honesty and great question !! I wish there are more people like you. I get away from other forums (Rose & Antique Rose), since there are too many control-freaks and ego-freaks who tell people what to do, rather than speaking for themselves, or sharing about their garden.

In my Chicagoland garden with 50+ roses, even disease-susceptible roses like Golden Celebration are clean in their 3rd year when I mulched with horse manure. When rain water, at pH 6 to 5.6 (in the East coast), passes through the composted manure, it's like a compost-tea itself, rich in nutrients and beneficial bacteria. Horse manure is alkaline, at pH above 8, which neutralizes or buffers the acidity of rain-water.

Pathogenic fungi like blackspots and mildew thrive at pH below neutral to acidic, versus beneficial bacteria and earthworms prefer it alkaline. U of Illinois Extension documented that the pH of composted-leaves is slightly alkaline, but the pH of FRESH leaves is acidic, around 6 to 5 (rain water is also acidic). See below link for the Soil Abstract on the acidic range for fungi growth.

When I moved Golden Celebration, it had at least one foot of composted layers of manure ... that fluffy soil helps with root-growth. Instead of having 2 feet-long root, I get 3-feet long root, from the surface root growing into the fluffy manure layer. Bigger and longer the root, means more nutrients & water available to plant. I rarely water that rose, and it doesn't get mildew or black spots.

In contrast, the roses in poor-drainage clay, only have 6 inch. of root, and more susceptible to mildew (from drying out on top), or black spot (from being soaking wet with poor drainage during heavy rain).

Here is a link that might be useful: Contrasting soil pH effects on fungal and bacterial growth

Thank you for everyone's responses. I do not have composted horse manures or access to a cheap source but I do have a lot of leaves. Can I put a layer of leaves on the ground and sprinkle on some lime to counter the leaves' acidity, StrawberryHill? I have read that the fungi and nematodes in aact eat up the larvaes of pests in the soil. I am just wondering if that is true and if anyone's personal observations of aact's use to support that claim.

Hi Kousa: That's a great idea: mulch with leaves, and sprinkle lime on top (pH of lime is 9). That's what my Mom did in Michigan in her 5-acre garden: she mulched with leaves, and sprinkled wood-ash (pH over 10) on top. She let the snow & rain neutralize the wood-ash into the leaves. I didn't see any black spots on her roses ... her soil became fluffy & well-drained with layers of composted organics.

Henry Kuska, professor of chemistry, posted a few articles on how soil bacteria suppress pathogenic fungi. Those beneficial bacteria are plenty in horse manure, if the medium is alkaline.

Lime suppress pathogenic fungi well, but nourishes earthworms. I have hard-well water, pH 8.5, very alkaline ... store those in bottles 5 years, and I don't see any fungi whatsoever, smell fresh too. In contrast, I have a bucket of used kitchen water, which I throw used lemon rinds to lower my tap water's pH. That bucket grows icky mold within a week.

I threw gritty lime around a few roses to neutralize the acidic rain we got this year (over 40" in our short-summer). When I dug under that limy layer, there was tons of earthworms ... same with my alkaline compost-pile. Earthworms HATE acid, the holes which I lowered the pH with sulfur, or put tons of gypsum (calcium sulfate) ... I could NOT find any earthworms when I dug that up.

Straw how low of a ph you talking about with the worms? We have tons of worms here with a 6.5 ph...(slight acid)

I have not had any luck at all applying gritty lime and or garden lime under Thomas Affleck... Both blackspot and powdery mildew coming back with a fury...
I wish I could say different but I can't...

So a person needs to experiment within there own garden to see what works and what doesn't for them...

Hi Jim: The place where there's no earthworms: I mixed crack-corn (pH below 4), and pine bark (pH 4), plus gypsum (calcium sulfate) for my acid-plants: rhododendrons & azaleas. It's so acidic that I see green-moss growing on top. See info. from eHow:

"Moss on your lawn doesn't actually kill grass; it merely occupies soil left vacant by dead or dying grass. Consequently, conditions that harm grass favor the spread of moss. Grass prefers pH levels in the six to 7.5 range, so it's best to keep pH within these margins. Soil pH below six is too acidic and may promote moss growth. "

**** From Straw: eHow is right that grass prefers alkaline range. My grass is super thick & dense in a drought with my pH 7.7. But when there's too much rain (at pH 6 and below), more weeds growing. The place where I made the soil fluffy & acidic to the point of moss growing on top, that Comte de Chambord rose is a black-spot fest.

Throwing gritty lime works well against black spots with pots, in good drainage & fluffy soil. But it doesn't work whatsoever with roses in poor-drainage clay. In contrast, gritty lime works well with roses in EXCELLENT drainage clay, near the trees, such as Radio Times, Crimson Glory (no mildew despite being mildew-prone).

Two factors essential for clean roses: How deep and fluffy the soil is, and is the soil alkaline enough to suppress pathogenic fungi? If there isn't 2 feet deep of fluffy & well-drained soil, roses' root can't grow big enough to handle heavy rain, over-watering, or drought.

I like Heirloom roses' instruction of mixing lots of wood-chips or peat moss into the hole. Wood-chips is best for clay, and peat moss (pH 4) is best for sandy & alkaline soil. Both helps with drainage (for black spots) and moisture-retention (for mildew). Most wood-chips are less acidic than pine-bark (pH 4), and birch-bark (pH 4 to 5). I already did that with 3 roses in the ground: mixing 1/2 wood chips with my rock-hard-clay. No black spots whatsoever on Barcelona, Madame Isaac Periere, and Souv. du President Lincoln. They get a bit of mildew since I don't water them.

For my birthday, hubby got me a free load of wood-chips nearby. My village grinds the trees, and offer free wood-chips (or mulch) to the public.

Here is a link that might be useful: pH level of moss

Thank you very much, Strawberry Hill for sharing your tips on growing roses organically. I will definitely use your information to apply to my rose beds. Right now, my soil is good only the top 12 inches. Below it is clay and rocks. I will just top dress with leaves and hopefully build up the soil below.

Thanks for clearing things up Straw on the gritty lime/lime! Ph below 4... That's low and real acid...lol

I got to get more wood chips next year and spread it lightly so our pets do not get muddy feet...lol

Strawberry Hill, can I use dehydrated cow manure in place of horse manure? I just found a source for this and I can get enough to put on my rose beds.

Hi Kousa: I'm glad you ask me about cow manure. I tested 2 types of cow manure this year: 1) Menards' bagged cow manure, pH above 7.5, really black ... most likely they put wood-ash for the color. BIG DISASTER on the few roses I tested: disease-resistant Bolero broke out in Blackspot for the 1st time in 3 years. Frederic Mistral, Mary Magdalene ... my 2 squeaky-clean roses, became BS-fest. Fred gets the most cow manure and leaves became yellowish and pale (chlorosis).

I researched on cow-manure and found that cattle-feed is inferior to horse feed. Besides a GM-corn diet, phosphorus and iron are added to cattle feed, both are fungal-promoter. In contrast, horses are fed oats, alfalfa & Timothy hay, Omega-3, zinc, and copper (2 strongest anti-fungal nutrients) ... to keep their hair shiny. Horse pellets also has acidophilus (beneficial bacteria) and vitamins added. Horse have better diet, since they are raised for beloved pets, showcase or racing.

I also tested dry chicken manure (Chickity-doo-doo) only $8 for 25 lbs. at Menards. More blooms than horse manure & alfalfa, but can't achieve 100% clean roses like previous years with horse manure & alfalfa.

I take more blooms with chicken over perfectly clean foliage. When horse stable limes their stall, that raise the pH of manure to a range that fungi can't grow ... such high pH also suppress blooming, with less phosphorus & potassium available.

Chicken feed has zinc, copper, and calcium added .... strong anti-fungal agents. Some has fish meal and flax meal added, good source of Omega-3.

2) I tested Encap dry-compost, $2 for an 18 lb. bag, made from dry cow-manure and leaves. Those granules made my soil fluffy, but still have black spots. Its pH around 7.5 is less alkaline than horse manure (pH above 8).

3) A rose grower in Florida mixed 1/2 cow manure with her sandy soil. Her cow manure was very alkaline (almost as blue in red-cabbage juice as baking soda). The result? brownish salt burns, plus fungal diseases from the high salt, iron, and phosphorus in cow manure.

I'm in zone 5a, my neighbors already trashed their tomatoes at end of Sept. But mine still look good, and I picked a big bag for hubby to bring to work this week. The secret? 18" raised bed, with at least 2 feet of fluffy soil. I made the soil fluffy with lots grass clippings (mix in when fresh so they don't clump up), plus 6" of leaves. They were fertilized with chicken manure, NPK 5-3-2. My soil is rock-hard clay, pH 7.7 ... the acidic leaves neutralized that, plus made the soil fluffy.

See my RAISED tomato bed below, picture taken yesterday Sept. 29. The last time I watered that bed was early spring, when the tomato were less than 1 foot tall. When the soil is deep and fluffy with plenty of organics, plant's root grow big enough to withstand both drought and heavy rain.

Below picture is my other bed of tomatoes, planted in 1 foot of clay, with a rock sediment at bottom. I made the soil fluffy by mixing my clay with 1/2 MG potting soil .. spent more money with that approach, but the result? Tomatoes expire early, wither like the neighbors', they can't cope with drought and temp. changes for such a shallow root. Picture taken yesterday, Sept. 29:

Below is a bouquet picked yesterday, Sept. 29. The roses that give the most blooms continuously are Frederic Mistral, Pat Austin, and Golden Celebration. They used to be stingy, until I fixed the planting hole, making it deeper and fluffier to a depth of at least 2 feet for maximum root-growth. I dug Pat and Golden Celebration 3 times to fix the drainage. I moved Frederic to a hole that I spent 1 hour preparing. That was worth it, since Fred gave me 70+ buds for spring flush, and the present fall flush is spectacular.

Wow! That is amazing! I hope to grow roses like yours without the use of chemicals. Your tomatoes look awesome as well as your roses. What a difference good fluffy soils make.

Does fertilizer help with compacted & rock-hard, and shallow clay? Yes, I tested with geraniums: Planted 6 geraniums with Jobes fertilizer (chicken manure, sulfate of potash, bone meal, gypsum, and Biozome). According to Jobes, "Biozome™. An extremely aggressive microorganism that quickly breaks down even complex materials and minerals into basic nutrients and trace elements that plants can readily absorb."

Below is a geranium planted in May, WITHOUT fertilizer, it's stunt & tiny , hasn't grown much compared to the weeds nearby. The other 6 next to it are 3 times bigger. Picture taken yesterday, Sept. 29.

Here's a geranium that was fertilized with Jobes' Organic ... I mixed in the planting hole early summer. I NEVER water it, nor fertilize afterwards. Picture was taken yesterday Sept. 30.

I grew geraniums in pots before .. in MG potting soil, already has slow-released fertilizer pellets. The geranium in pots are much bigger, but they turn brown early with cold weather. The geraniums in the ground last much longer through the cold into October. See the big difference between previous pic. of zero fertilizer, and the below pic. of organic fertilizer in the planting hole. Jobes has feather meal, chicken manure, bone meal, sulfate of potash, and gypsum. I use Jobes' NPK 2-7-4, since geraniums don't have fungal diseases, and the high phosphorus helps with vibrant color.

I have been wondering why chicken and cow manure are useless for fungal diseases, but horse manure is very effective. I found that cow manure is heavy on the antibiotics routinely used for cattle feed, same with chicken. That's NOT the case of horses, who are given antibiotics only when sick, rather than routinely in their feed.

Walmart sells organic chicken without antibiotics (same price as regular chicken, so the organics are always wiped out). For me to buy organic beef without antibiotics, I have to drive far, since only one store carries that.

Consider the antibiotics used in cattle feed, I'm not surprised with the awful result after my testing cow manure this year: rampant fungal diseases. Even after scraping off the cow manure, the tested roses are never healthy like previous 3 years. Antibiotics have a lingering effect that kill all beneficial nematodes and bacteria which hold the pathogenic fungi in check.

I will have to get horse manure to bring in the beneficial bacteria. Research from Penn State University on artillery fungus, by Dr. Donald D. Davis "The artillery fungus is a wood-decay fungus that likes to live on moist landscape mulch .. artillery fungus seems to prefer wood as opposed to bark.

Much of the mulch that we use today is recycled wood ... the finely-shredded mulches used today hold more moisture than the older coarsely ground mulches ��" this favors fungi, because they need moisture to survive and sporulate.

We tested 27 mulches in the field ... the most resistant mulch was large pine bark nuggets. The large bark nuggets often stay hard and dry, conditions that fungus does not like. Cypress also performed fairly well, as it probably contains some anti-fungal, anti-decay chemical(s).

Our research at Penn State has shown that blending used mushroom compost with mulch at about 40% by volume (add 4 buckets of mushroom compost to 6 buckets of landscape mulch) will greatly suppress artillery fungus sporulation."

Mushroom compost is composted horse manure with bedding, plus lime. There's only one area in my garden with mushrooms on lawn: it's next to trees, and the trees' roots acidify the soil so that grass are in decline, with clovers and mushrooms taking over. See picture below, these mushroom gives off "black liquid" when I pulled them up. So glad to wear disposable gloves !! I sprinkled lime in that area, let's see if the mushroom come back. We are in a dry spell, but the mushrooms still grow in that dry acidic soil near the trees.

Thank God, the FDA is considering regulating the rampant use of antibiotics in cattle feed, see the below excerpts from ABC news: "Rep. Louise Slaughter (D-NY), the only microbiologist in Congress, said the plan is an "inadequate" response to the antibiotic-resistant bacteria crisis stemming from livestock feed because the FDA has no mechanism to enforce it.

Dr. William Schaffner, chairman of preventive medicine at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, Tenn., said this is an important step forward for the United States, considering that Europe enacted a similar ban in 2006.

In labs, Schaffner said researchers expose bacteria to low doses of antibiotics over time when they want to create antibiotic resistant bacteria, and this is similar to what is happening in food animals' digestive systems.

"In effect, all of these animals have been just like a test tube in which we have been creating resistant bacteria," he said. "They then go to the slaughterhouse. Slaughterhouses are not very hygienic places as you can imagine. The meat products that we get become contaminated with the bacteria that were in the animals."

He said the bacteria is then passed to humans, who accidentally contaminate counters or undercook their food.

Here is a link that might be useful: FDA: Stop feeding livestock antibiotics and growth hormones

Wow, I am so ignorant of the stuff that they do to our meats. I know they use antibiotics in chickens but I did not know that antibiotics use is also rampant in cows. Thank you for sharing your information. So how do I know that my soil has good counts of beneficial fungi? Is there any physical observation that I can make to determine its level in my soil. I am having a lot of problems with rose midge not only affecting my roses but also dahlias and even some perennials. They are frying my plants tips and buds.

Hi Kousa: You mean beneficial bacteria? Beneficial bacteria are plenty in yogurt like L. Acidophillus (also added to horse feed). Beneficial bacteria are in healthy soil and in horse manure. One example is Bacillus thuringiensis, an organism fatal to caterpillars but perfectly safe for plants and other animals.

Some horse manure contain beneficial nematodes (added by the stable) to control flies population. Midge is between a gnat and a small fly. Horse manure, IF it has beneficial nematodes, is effective for midge-control. Most stables have a "free heap" of manure, so the public can help themselves, without permission. The stable in my small village has a horse-manure pile the size of a 2-story house.

FUNGAL DISEASES are: Blackspots, mildew, rust, canker, gray mold, and powdery mildew. Any type of mushroom is also a fungi. Fungi does not like extreme alkalinity, like pH above 8. Baking soda pH is 8.3, and is used against black spots. Fungi grows best at neutral to acidic soil above pH 4.

I researched on agricultural midge, or swede midge. Experiments at Cornell University stated, " Laboratory results indicated that extremely dry and extremely wet soil hinders swede midge emergence. Optimal moisture content for swede midge emergence was from 25 ��" 75 %, and varied in different soils." Cornell University recommends crop rotation, but that's not possible with roses.

That explains why I don't have rose midge in my rock-hard clay. My heavy clay is sticky-wet when it's rained, and rock-hard when dry. 15 minutes from me is Cantigny rose park, with 1,200 roses. They use zero mulch, just bare dirt. But when people mulch with bark, that retains optimal moisture level longer for midge germination.

More from Cornell University: "These results suggest that cultural practices, such as flooding fields during non-cropping periods to achieve 100% soil moisture level or even DRYING THE SOIL, may be viable methods to reduce swede midge emergence. Similarly, swede midge populations and damage are expected to be REDUCED when saturated soil or drought conditions occur."

eHow recommended that for rose midge, removing the top soil, and putting new soil in late season will stop midge from germinating next year. That's what I do in zone 5a for winter-protection: I dump new soil in late fall, to protect my roses. The bagged soils here are alkaline clay, pH near 8, makes it impossible for any insects to thrive.

Two of my 55+ roses had rose midge early spring, since I did not dump alkaline soil this past winter. It's just fluffy potting soil, which holds the ideal moisture for midge germination. I flooded the soil repeatedly, plus our week-long heavy rain killed all the midge larvae by early summer.

Conclusion: Midge doesn't like soil too wet, nor too dry .. and sticky alkaline clay does just that. From a University Extension, I learned the midge hatch from the top 1 to 2" of soil, so removing the top surface of soil helps. One lazy way is dust a thin layer of wood-ash, its extreme alkalinity would kill any midge larvae, and disease-causing fungi.

From Missouri Botanical Garden "Rose midges are microscopic insects that can blacken and kill rosebuds and leaves. The destructive, whitish maggots usually hatch after the first bloom cycle and rasp tender plant tissue as they feed, causing leaves and blossoms to blacken and shrivel. An unchecked, heavy infestation can eliminate bloom from late spring to early fall. After feeding, the larvae drop to the soil, pupate, and emerge as reddish or yellowish brown flies within a week. To control this pest, remove and destroy affected flower buds and leaves as soon as you spot midge damage."

Here is a link that might be useful: Cornell University on midge

Wonderful pics and advice Strawberryhill! :-)