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Bouquets of no-spray roses

Posted by Strawberryhill 5a IL (My Page) on
Sun, Sep 1, 13 at 14:05

Roses can be beautiful with no-spray, less chemicals. I have rock-hard alkaline clay (pH 7.7) ... at first I fixed with peat moss, that glued up. Success with larger particles: coarse sand, compost, and pine bark (pH 4.5),

My heavy clay retains salt, so I use organics. The stable switched to wetter and more acidic bedding ... I no longer use horse manure. I used alkaline whole-grain corn meal as fertilizer with great results: shiny leaves and fungal-prevention. Here are my bouquets:

Below dark red rose is Stephen Big Purple. Dark mauve rose is Old Port floribunda. Yellow rose is Honey Bouquet floribunda.

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Dark pink is Evelyn Austin rose, color deepened with molasses fertilizer.

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Below are Bolero rose (white) and Sonial Rykiel (pink) .. color got deepened by watering 1 tablespoon molasses/vinegar per 2 gallons of water. I get pale pink from that rose for the past 2 years until now.

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Below big pink is Pink Peace rose, and the little spray of tiny blooms are "Annie L. McDowell" thornless rose, scent of lavender and lilac. Both perfume the entire room.

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Below orange is Versigny rose, heavenly floral fruit. Yellow rose is Golden Celebration, smells like cup-cakes. Pink rose is Evelyn with floral peach scent:

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Below purple rose is "Deep Purple floribunda", a disease-resistant Kordes. Yellow rose is Golden Celebration. Lavender blooms are "Rose of Sharon" perennial.

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Below big orange rose is "Sweet Promise hybrid tea", almost thornless, smells like apple blossoms. Evelyn rose is pink in the middle, Frederic Mistral rose is upper right.

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This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Oct 7, 13 at 9:25


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

Liv Tyler rose gives me lots of cut-flowers, like 40+ blooms per flush. Upper dark red is William Shakespeare 2000, salmon pink is Liv Tyler, light pink is Frederic Mistral rose, and dark pink is Pink Peace rose.


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

My favorite disease resistant orange rose is Crown Princess Magareta, pictured with Radio Times rose (pink with Damask scent), and Paul Neyron (dark pink):

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My favorite red, very fragrant rose is Firefighter hybrid tea. The pink rose is Eglantyne, heavenly old rose scent.

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My new roses for this year: Jude the Obscure (beige, bought 1 month ago as a band), Double Delight (bi-color), Old port rose (mauve/red).

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Sep 2, 13 at 10:06


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

Spectacular bouquets, Strawberryhill. I really like the mix of colors.

Mme Pierre Oger, Marchesa Boccella and Lavender Lassie

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Mme Pierre Oger, Brilliant Pink Iceberg, and a Hybrid Perpetual

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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

Thank you, Krista, for those wonderful pink bouquets. Marchesa Boccella, or Jacques Cartier, has a nice fragrance, but didn't bloom much in my alkaline clay.

The bouquets I posted all have great scents, worth growing. Jude the Obsure, Golden Celebration, Pink Peace, Firefighter, Versigny, Sonia Rykiel, Evelyn are my favorite scents.

Krista, how are the scents on your roses? What's that dark pink/mauve rose in the last picture? Thanks in advance.

Here's another bouquet with fragrant roses: Large pink is Evelyn, dark red is W.S. 2000, beige is Mary Magdalene (the best myrrh/frankincense ever!), smaller pinks are Francis Blaise rose, yellows are Honey Bouquet floribunda and Arthur Bell floribunda.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Sep 14, 13 at 12:59


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

Mme Pierre Oger has excellent fragrance. Brilliant Pink Iceberg has a nice, sweet fragrance.

I didn't label my pics very well, I think the dark pink is Anna de Diesbach. It's quite fragrant.


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

Thank you, Krista for the info. on fragrance. I favorite Old Garden Rose scents are Comte de Chambord and Duchess de Rohan ... great spring flush, I hope to have some blooms in fall. Here's a bouquet picked today at 93 degrees, 48% humidity:

The big orange rose is Summer Samba floribunda, blooms are large up to 5", like a hybrid tea, the scent is pear and clove, unique. The little dark pink in the middle is Yves Piaget's child, 100% thornless, grape and sweet pea scent. Yellow is Golden Celebration rose (smells like cupcakes), dark pink is Pink Peace rose (buttery floral, YUM!). Light pink is Evelyn rose, smells like floral peach.


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Hybrid teas like Crimson Glory and Firefighter rose bloom well in the heat above 90 degrees. Here's a bouquet picked today: Firefighter is on the left (I love to stick my nose into this one, insanely fragrant, velvety soft petals). Red Crimson Glory smells like fresh soap, middle is orange Summer Samba bud, very fragrant.


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fresh cut this morning, 3 of English rose, 3rd flush one inch smaller than the early spring - the Endeavour (planted in the ground, bare root 2010), right red - Kentucky Derby (grafted 2gal from Home Depot, better this year, fragrant & darker red as well as better shape), Prospero, bottom red (rcvd 1/3/09 from David Austin, own root, very healthy), Passionate Kisses (5 gal grafted, got it 8/8/2004, blooms like flower tree, love the clear coral pink planted in the backyard 9 years now)
I was told that Prospero not easy for the beginner, but I have been pleased with lots of them, even I knew little about caring for this one, own root better & healthier and never give me problem, just added compost & liquid fertilizer.


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Thank you, Seaweed, for that stunning combo of vibrant colors. I love the color of the Endeavor, and reds in Prospero and Kentucky Derby (I love its swirly petals).

See bouquet below: Orange is Sweet Promise rose, Red is Firefighter hybrid tea. The huge pink bloom is Paul Neyron hybrid perpetual, 1st bloom from a tiny band. They all smell fabulous, and perfume the entire room.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Nov 6, 13 at 9:56


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

Here's a bouquet picked yesterday, after 2 weeks of heat above 90 degrees, no rain.

University of Kentucky experiment with marigolds in pots showed the biggest bloom diameter was achieved with chemical potassium added (fish emulsion is 2nd place, alfalfa resulted in the smallest bloom). Potassium mobility is a 3, moves very little in my heavy clay, thus best in fast-release soluble chemical form.

Biggest bloom is Summer Samba floribunda (bought end of June), fertilized with soluble molasses NPK 3-1-5. Due to the bicarbonates in my pH 8 tap water (lime), I have to use gypsum. Potassium is needed for added calcium, so I use sulfate of potash.

Evelyn rose, ruffled pink next to orange rose. Frederic Mistral hybrid tea is upper light pink. Stephen Big Purple, bought as a band early May. Fertilized with MiracleGro Bloom Booster at 1/2 dose, NPK 10-52-10.

Smallest bloom is Pink Peace (medium pink), only corn meal. Early summer Pink Peace was the biggest bloom, fertilized with gypsum and sulfate of potash.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Oct 3, 13 at 17:35


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Here's info. on sulfate of potash, it's sold at Kelp4Less for $8 per lb. of soluble powder, free shipping. I prefer soluble form over granular, due to my heavy clay and the less mobility of potassium at 3, compared to nitrogen at 10 Nitrogen leaches out and contaminates ground water.

My husband grabbed the bag made by Epsoma "Potash", at $13 for 5 lbs. It turned out to be Muriate of Potash, or potassium chloride, with high salt index of 116.2, the stuff that we use to de-ice in our zone 5a winter.

Sulfate of potash has lower salt-index of 43. It's a better choice than the "Potash" sold at stores, which is the high-salt Muriate of Potash.

Due to my hard water at pH 8 with bicarbonates (hydrated lime), I add gypsum to my water to free up nutrients tie-up. It's sold for $7 for 40 lbs. bag at the feed store. There's an inverse relationship between calcium and potassium in plants. So if calcium is added via gypsum, potassium has to be added to keep it balanced.

"Sulfate of Potash (K2SO4) is a natural potash mineral that contains 51 percent soluble potash and 18 percent sulfur. It also contains trace amounts of calcium and magnesium. Potassium is second only to nitrogen in terms of the abundance needed for plants. Many crops use as much as 250# of potash per acre per year. See its MSDS data:

http://www.norganics.com/products/fertilizers/natural-sulfate.htm

Below picture of orange bloom is Sweet Promise hybrid tea rose, heavenly scent of apple blossom .. the bush is almost thornless.

Here is a link that might be useful: Kelp4Less soluble sulfate of potash at $8 per lb.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Dec 1, 13 at 14:28


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

Here's another bouquet fertilized with gypsum (calcium sulfate) and muriate of potash, or potassium chloride with salt index 116.2. I get the big blooms, but you can see the brownish salt-damage on Versigny orange bloom.

Now I switched to sulfate of potash, a natural mineral, with lower salt index of 43 ... much better result NPK 0-0-50.

White is Bolero floribunda, pink is Liv Tyler hybrid tea, red is Firefighter hybrid tea, and orange is Versigny shrub rose.


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Here's one experiment on the ratio of potassium and the bloom-diameter. The biggest bloom is "Summer Samba" floribunda, orange, fertilized with sulfate of potash NPK 0-0-50, highest in potassium.

Evelyn (peach on top) is fertilized with corn meal, NPK 1.6-0.65-0.4. Sonia Rykiel (bottom pink) is fertilized with oatmeal NPK 2-0.8-0.6 (lots of blooms, but small). White Bolero is fertilized with corn meal.

They all have calcium sulfate (gypsum) added for firm petals. Below is a link from University of Minnesota Extension that shows pictures of potassium deficiency: yellowing of leaf margin, and yellow spots on leaf.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pictures of potassium deficiency

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Sep 21, 13 at 20:15


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

Here are my 2 favorite cut flowers: Versigny (orange), wonderful apricot/floral scent. Annie L. McDowell rose is pink-cluster, thornless, with lavender and lilac scent.

Yellow is Honey Bouquet floribunda (zero fertilizer), and white is Bolero (fertilized with corn meal, oatmeal, other grains). I like Bolero the most: 40+ blooms on a compact bush. PIcture taken today, Sept. 26.


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I want Kim's Annie for my garden too. Bolero has been good here. It took a few years but now it is a good sized own root plant. It even flowered in the summer heat this year. The petals got burnt so I pinched off the rest of the buds until the high heat was over.


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Hi Kitty: I have 2 Annie L. McDowell roses, lots of cuttings in case someone want them.

SteveinAustralia in HMF advised me 2 years ago to use Sulfate of Potash to deepen bloom color. My husband got the wrong one, Muriate of Potash (potassium chloride) which made the petals brownish, due to high salt index 116.2.

I tested sulfate of potash (salt index 43) on 2 Yves Piaget's children and Mirandy rose .... very pleased with deeper colors. Versigny doesn't get sulfate of potash, and is pale peachy, rather than deep orange. Here's a bouquet taken today, Sept. 29, Yves Piaget child is the lowest deep red bloom, Mirandy rose is the big upper dark-red bloom:


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The same dark-red Yves Piaget's child at the bottom of last picture came from the same plant as the light pink bloom in below pic. That's because I put too much gypsum (calcium sulfate). It's Menards' brand of gypsum with higher % of calcium which bleached out the bloom, plus taking away its fabulous scent.

Lime (calcium carbonate) and hydrated lime are both used to deodorize, thus lessen the scent. Yves Piaget's child is light pink (with gypsum), lower left. Evelyn rose is the big bloom on the right, fertilized with cocoa mulch, then horse manure on top:

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Sep 29, 13 at 16:07


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Here's a bouquet picked yesterday, Sept. 30. Middle dark red is William Shakespeare 2000 rose. Orange is Crown Princess Magareta rose, white is Bolero, and pinks are Evelyn, Frederic Mistral, and Radio Times rose.

Radio Times bloom is smallest, since I don't fertilize it. Sulfate of Potash increases bloom numbers, best used to balance gypsum (calcium sulfate).

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sat, Jun 28, 14 at 8:32


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

this spring I was so blessed with blooms all over the garden, here is one group I want to share, far left pink, Hornorie de Brabant, Heritage, Pretty Lady top row, below 2 Cymbeline and left pink, Sharifa Asma, all are fragrant roses, like beauty pageant on my patio rose table, I adore all of them, do not use any kind of spray that would make me sick.


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this is another example of happy floribunda, Rainbow Sorbet, such apple delicious scent, feel like a satisfied customer just finished the apple pie, yummy. I do recommend getting this rose to glorify your garden, Thank God for this one, bred from Playboy, which I lost few years ago.


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Hi Seaweed: WOW! I love your Rainbow Sorbet bush, so healthy and loaded with blooms. That bush cheer me up, Such a great bush with an apple scent? That's on my wish-list.

I enjoy your pic. of Hornorie de Brabant, Heritage, Pretty Lady, Cymbeline and Sharifa Asma. I love swirly petals like those. Thank you, Seaweed, for sharing the treasure of your 160 roses garden!

The fruity and myrrh scents are very good in my alkaline clay, while the Old Garden rose scent like William Shakespeare 2000 is lessened. Below orange is Crown Princess Magareta, nice fruity scent. I prefer Evelyn when the bloom was yellowish, fertilized with corn-meal. Now Evelyn bloom is made smaller with my too-much-gypsum mistake. Picture taken Sept 30.


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Nice & scented bouquet of English roses, love them all! Lucky roses in your garden are being loved and cared for! Now if I were one of the rose! God bless you!


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Yay! My friend fixed the broken part on my camera. Here is my no spray bouquet of Pope John Paul II


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I'm not sure who this is. I got a mislabeled plant. Maybe Valencia? It's creamy colored and sometimes toward warm peachy yellow but always very pretty.


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Hi Kitty: I love your Pope John Paul II rose, very pretty with pink shade. Your camera takes great pics. I like your unknown rose. At first I thought it's "Amazing Grace" rose ... but you already have that? Then I thought it's "Secret Rose" ... but yours has more petals.

The closest to your "unknown" rose is "Sophisticated Lady rose", see below link ... which has both pink and peachy shade. My Honey Bouquet floribunda (yellow rose) below is blooming lots. It responds to sulfate of potash better than gypsum. It's leaves are always pale, until I give it sulfate of potash, which deepened the leaves & and the blooms.

I like gypsum (calcium sulfate) to break up my hard clay, but for bigger blooms, scent-retention, and deeper colors I prefer sulfate of potash. I don't overkill on sulfate of potash since it's a fine powder, but I abused gypsum since it's granules and sold cheap $6.99 for 40 lbs.

A few English rose growers recommended potassium when an Austin is stingy. Caldonbeck got more blooms from her W.S. 2000, by giving it tomato-fertilizer high in potassium.

Yellow rose is Honey Bouquet floribunda, purple is Deep Purple (hates chemical, best with chicken manure), and pink is Francis Blaise rose. Next year I'm going 100% organics, and use sulfate of potash only to fix my pH 8 tap water .. my garden has enough gypsum.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sophisticated Lady bred by Robert Neil Rippetoe


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If it is Secret Rose, then please see the attached, end of April, 2013. The intense sweet & spicy fragrance always made my day whenever I took a breath, and re bloom is very often with long stem, imagine, it took me two years, made up my mind to get this rose at local nursery, it has been waiting for me, finally, March 2010.
Admire your Honey Bouquet floribunda & the other roses, they are lovely, wish I could smell from the photo. And I love the photos of John Paul II & the pink & crème unknown. Glad that YOU all share your beautiful roses with us.


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looking at your group of roses, reminds me of Pretty Lady, when it started late Aug, I could not believe, 2nd flush did so well, you know, looking from certain angle, you could not catch your breath, it is a good example of floribunda,


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my patio table is easy for roses photos, see the attached!

2 Tess of d'Urberville, top & bottom red, center, Rock & Roll, the Endeavour, Maggie Barry, yellow Honey Perfume, bloody Hot Cocoa, pale Pretty Lady, left orange Voo Doo.
I named this Tasty roses. It was early morning Aug 3rd, 2013.


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Hi Seaweed: Thank you for sharing your roses.

Such beautiful roses for a hot day in August ... I love the intense colors of your roses: "Tess of d'Urberville, top & bottom red, center, Rock & Roll, the Endeavour, Maggie Barry, yellow Honey Perfume, bloody Hot Cocoa, pale Pretty Lady, left orange Voo Doo."

My neighbor has Rock & Roll, the bush is always clean, she doesn't spray. I always sneak up for a sniff of her Rock & Roll, smells wonderful. Honey Perfume is on my wish-list, yellow always cheer me up.

Below is a bouquet picked Oct. 3: Angel Face, Old Port (purple upper right), and Samaritan Floribunda (orange, good fruity scent). The orange on the left is Summer Samba rose. My favorite roses are Bolero floribunda (white) and Pink Peace (lowest dark pink).

I prefer the scent of Bolero fertilized with soluble grains (corn meal and oatmeal). Last year I applied horse manure to Bolero, and the scent went harsh on me.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Oct 9, 13 at 19:21


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Now is Nov. 6, my roses are zapped by frost in my zone 5a ... but there are a few blooms left on Frederic Mistral (French perfume scent) and Mary Magdalene (frankincense & myrrh).

Looking back at my summer bouquets, I miss Wise Portia (mauve) scent the most ... It's upper left in the below bouquet. I also miss Sonia Rykiel (pink), upper left. It's a wonderful raspberry rose scent. All the below roses are very fragrant ... one vase is enough to perfume my kitchen.


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Super photos of bouquets here! Pretty Lady made my heart skip a beat! So pretty!


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missed my roses back in Aug, Lady Guadalupe, this is on the left side of the bush, got 5gal grafted floribunda, Home Depot last year, better this year, 2nd flush, now I have a few roses but not as impressive, still smells sweet. I admit that I only pray as I sniff this rose, early spring applied half cup of Vigoro's rose food, during summer, added diluted chicken manure, followed by tap water, glad to have this rose on the front yard near the side of the house, receiving bright sun light.

By the way, admire these bouquet of roses, so beautiful, just made my days & weeks, never get tired of viewing them. I like to image that I stood at your garden busy sniffing every one of them. You are lucky to raise these healthy & strong fragrant roses. God bless you!


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Great pics everyone! :-)


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Hi Jim: I applaud your no-spray organic approach. I also like the pics. you posted with bumble bees. Bees love the fragrant roses I grow .. Bayer and pesticides mean bad-news for the bees and our food prices. See below:

"Clothianidin, a synthetic pesticide marketed by corporate chemical giant Bayer, has been banned in several European countries, including Bayer's home country of Germany, due to its toxic effects on honeybees. Honeybees do far more than produce honey. A vital part of the world ecosystem, they currently pollinate over a third of the food crops grown in the United States, and as such are vital to the stability of U.S. food production. Many of America's favorite foods, such as almonds and watermelon, will become scarce if honeybee populations continue to decline."

"neonicotinoids are lethal to bees and weaken their immune systems, making them more susceptible to pathogens. They say it could contribute to colony collapse disorder, in which all the adult honey bees in a colony suddenly disappear or die.

The disorder continues to decimate hives in the U.S. and overseas. Since it was recognized in 2006, the disease has destroyed colonies at a rate of about 30 percent a year, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture." See link below:

Below is a bouquet of fragrant roses in my garden, zone 5a, picked Oct. 11 after light frost hit. The bees like to feed on fragrant roses with exposed stamens the most.

Here is a link that might be useful: Clothianidin Pesticide Harms Honeybees

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Wed, Jan 15, 14 at 11:55


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here are the roses fresh cut from yesterday's photo, April fool's day, center Blue Moon, yellow Gold Glow, below Koko Loco, top mauve Neptune, right side of 2 Sweetness, bright orange Rainbow Sorbet, hope you can smell the fragrance of them.


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Hi Seaweed: I love your bouquet, so natural and fresh. Koko Loco has a unique salmon color, your Blue Moon is outstanding. I love the vivid colors of your roses: Neptune, Sweetness, Gold Glow and Rainbow Sorbet.

Such great roses from your dry southern California! I checked, and your county has the least annual rainfall in the region, only 11.6 inch per year (compared to my 40+ inch. in Chicagoland). Dry climate is a blessing, considering that I gave up on roses when I was young, due to black spots .. which isn't a problem in a dry climate.

I wish I had bought more lavender and yellow roses. Below is yellow Honey Bouquet rose, and Deep Purple rose (it's actually lavender). Both smell great !!

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Thu, Apr 10, 14 at 11:11


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list of the roses -
top Mr Lincoln (dk red), Tiffany (pink), Rainbow Sorbeet (orange)
2nd, Royal Highness (pink), Memorial Day (lilac pink), Top Notch (bright yellow)
Last, Sweetness (lavender), Fragrant Cloud (lipstick red), Julia Child (butter yellow) Top Notch (bright yellow), April in Paris (liter pink, spent), the morning fresh cut roses this morning.


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Thank you, Seaweed, for another awesome spring bouquet. I love the deep orange of Fragrant cloud and deep yellow of your Top Notch rose. Your Royal Highness rose has a wonderful vibrant pink.

I put calcium citrate tablet in my cut roses to make the petals rigid and to prolong vase-life. Below is pink Radio Times rose, and white Mary Magdalene. Both are VERY thorny ... I plant them below window sill, to protect my windows from break-in. The whitish stuff on the leaves are calcium powder.


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I'm jumping in to say what fantastic bouquets of beauty everyone has! So wonderful that these beauties are brought about with no chemicals. Am having an incredibly tough time with rust spot on my roses. Strawberryhill, where do you get cornmeal to apply in the garden?


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Hi aztcqn: Bob's whole-grain cornmeal is sold in the Organic Section at Walmart & other grocery stores. The whole grain, organic cornmeal has higher pH (more alkaline) than the genetically-modified & refined cornmeal. I already tested the refined cornmeal, it's worthless.

Several rose-growers report success putting a thin layer of woodash around roses for rust. Woodash has a much higher pH, over 12. The advantage of woodash: high in calcium, high in potassium, plus trace elements.

A rose-grower in Southern CA, Kittymoonbeam, emailed me "I did an experiment this year. I had a row of Johann Strauss roses away from any other roses. Never one speck of any disease for 3 years in any month. Last November I mulched with pine bark and kept adding it through Feb. Guess what, Rust on most all of the plants ... I am removing the pine bark next weekend and going back to horse manure for that bed. Kitty"

From Strawberryhill: Lower the pH, more rust. Pine bark is very acidic, at pH 4.5. Horse manure is alkaline, pH over 8 & has calcium & potassium which helps with rust.

There's a U. of Nebraska paper on rust, entitled, "Medium pH and Leaf Nutrient Concentration Influence Rust Pustule diameter on leaves." Their conclusion: Plants grown in pH 5.8 medium show significantly larger rust pustules than plants grown in pH 6.5 or pH 7.9. Concentrations of Cl (chloride) and Mn (manganese) were more in high rust. In contrast, concentration of K (potassium) were less in high rust. Alabama Agriculture Cotton Research also recommended potassium fertilizer to reduce rust.

Besides being acidic, pine bark is high in manganese. I see LOWERING pH as increasing in rust. I put too much gypsum (at 17% sulfur) around Evelyn, it came down with rust. Although potassium in banana peels is safe, the downfall of sulfate of potash 0-0-20 (20% potassium, 22% sulfur, 43% salt index) is the sulfur & salt content.

Both Field Roebuck (Texas rosarian) and an Australian site cited high potassium, as contributing to rust. Most fertilizer have the cheaper potassium, potassium chloride, which is high in CHLORIDE (rust factor), plus high in salt (116.2 salt index). Potassium chloride is also used to soften hard water.

My conclusion: the most documented, and successful method of combating rust is spreading a thin layer on wood ash from the fireplace around rosebush. That's OK for Michigan, where my Mom spread wood ash on top of a thick layer of leaves, and let the melted snow and rain counter-act the acidity of leaves. But wood ash is NOT appropriate for hot summer and alkaline soil, due to its very high pH over 12.

Good luck to you, aztcqn, and thank you for a great question.

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Jul 15, 14 at 10:30


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Wow!
Strawrberryhill, Thank you for this super valuable information. Absolutely appreciate your response because at a frustrated point I resorted, unfortunately, to doing rounds with Physan mixture spray and now I'm aware that it may also disrupt the soil critters, but, all my hand-picked roses have to be stripped over and over to get rid of infected leaves!
My mom is on standing orders NOT to ever water the roses because she gets water al over them. :[ But, then the rains came, then the fog……..sigh.
I didn't read this post until after I added blood and bone as a top dressing this evening……geez, so I've just further ensured an acidy soil around my plants……..
I'm also reading with great interest your experience with gypsum…..I have used some from a 50 pound bag, but, now it's diligence about keeping water of the leaves until the blood/ bone gets used up………Nature is a fine, fine balance I'm seeing. I am eternally grateful for your information on cornmeal.

I can't get over how wonderfully you grow your roses with no harsh chemicals. Knowledge is key. Thank you for the inspiration.


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Hi aztcqn: Thank you for your kind words, supporting balance in nature. It helps me a lot, since for the past years Bayer and chemical-promoters have been posting in this forum ... totally inappropriate for the guidelines established by Gardenweb.

Seaweed, a coastline Southern CA with heavy fog, grows the most disease-free & organic roses. Her HMF profile (Myrosetime) is absolutely stunning with 160+ clean roses.

Blood meal is reported as acidic, bone meal is alkaline (the calcium in bone meal increases pH) ... those 2 would balance each other. What's needed is potassium, best through banana peels (NPK 0-3-42, high potassium of 42).

I use tomato-fertilizer since it's higher in potassium .. helps with disease-prevention in roses. Espoma Tomato-Tone has NPK 3-4-6 (potassium at 6), low-odor.

Also less stinky is "Pennington Alaska 4-6-6 Vegetable and Tomato Dry Fertilizer", at Menards $7 for a 3 lb. bag (phosphorus & potassium at 6) with alfalfa meal, fish meal, cottonseed meal, and kelp meal. Menards also sells VERY STINKY chicken manure (Chikity-do-do), 25 lbs. for $8.99, with NPK 5-3-2.5 (potassium at 2.5). It's cheaper than Amazon prices.

For beneficial bacteria, HomeDepot sells "Niu 0.75 cu. ft. Chicken Manure". This is composted so it's less stinky. Lowe's also sells chicken manure for $3.99 for a smaller bag.

I got bullied and ridiculed for the info. I researched in the regular Rose forum, that's why I posted them here. People don't want to hear the truth, such as:

Many of the pesticides (includes fungicides) have health risks that are not known until later. May 13, 2013 was the news on Parkinson's disease "Researchers found exposure to pesticides increased the risk of developing the disease by 33 percent to 80 percent. Some pesticides were considered to be of higher risk than others, with weed killers like paraquat and FUNGICIDES MANEB AND MANCOZEB causing twice the risk for development of Parkinson’s disease ... Another recent publication found that rural residents who drank contaminated well water had an increased risk��"up to 90 percent��"of developing Parkinson’s."

Here is a link that might be useful: Pesticides and Parkinson Disease


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

When I was in high school, I worked in the nursing home and witnessed the effect of Parkinson's ... a severe neurological affliction . The Feb. 2010 Washington University School of Medicine's study is based on data from 36 million Medicare recipients.

Here's an excerpt from the link below: "The results appear online in the journal Neuroepidemiology: Parkinson's disease is a common neurodegenerative condition that causes tremor, stiffness, slowness, mood and behavioral disorders, sleep problems and other symptoms.

According to Willis, genetic factors explain only a small percent of cases. Environmental factors are likely more common contributors and include prolonged exposures to herbicides and insecticides used in farming or to metals such as copper, manganese and lead.

Finding clusters in the Midwest and the Northeast is particularly exciting," says lead author Allison Wright Willis, M.D., assistant professor of neurology "These are the two regions of the country most involved in metal processing and agriculture, and chemicals used in these fields are the strongest potential environmental risk factors for Parkinson's disease that we've identified so far."

Here is a link that might be useful: Parkinson's rates highest in whites, Hispanics, and Midwest, Northeast

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Apr 21, 14 at 10:54


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During my college years of working in the nursing home, I witnessed a lady with Alzheimer's, another neurological tragedy. Below is a link to the study "DDT Linked To Alzheimer's Disease" from Science 2.0:

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/ddt_linked_alzheimers_disease-128559

From http://www.epa.gov/kidshometour/pest.htm Here's the definition of pesticides: "A pesticide is a chemical used to prevent, destroy, or repel pests. Pests can be insects, mice and other animals, weeds, fungi, or microorganisms such as bacteria and viruses."

Below is an excerpt from WebMD, entitled, "Pesticides May Raise Alzheimer's Risk"

"The new study involved more than 4,000 residents 65 and older from an agricultural county in Utah who are participating in a larger study of risk factors for Alzheimer’s disease.

After adjusting for age, sex, education, and a gene known to raise the risk of Alzheimer’s, the researchers found that people who worked with pesticides were 53% more likely to develop Alzheimer’s disease."

Here is a link that might be useful: WebMD: pesticides may raise Alzheimer's risk


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Another neurological tragedy that affects children is autism. My neighbor across the street has a 6-years old with autism. Below is an excerpt from the article entitled "Autism Linked to Maternal Exposure to Pesticides":

"A new study on children born in California's Central Valley suggests that autism in those children might be linked to prenatal exposure to two insecticides used on fields near their mothers' homes.

Cases of autism and related disorders were associated with maternal exposure to applications of dicofol and endosulfan during early pregnancy.

Children were six times more likely to have been diagnosed with autism if their mothers had spent early pregnancy in homes within 500 meters (547 yards) of fields with the highest levels of dicofol and endosulfan applications."

From the link: http://www.autismtoday.com/library-back/Pesticide link to autism suspected.asp

"The study involved 300,000 children born in the 19 counties of the Sacramento and San Joaquin river valleys. Of those children, 465 had autism.

Dicofol is mostly used on cotton, oranges, beans and walnuts. Endosulfan is used primarily in tomato processing and on lettuce, alfalfa and cotton crops."

Here is a link that might be useful: Autism Linked to Maternal Exposure to Pesticides

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Mon, Apr 21, 14 at 10:52


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Oh wow, that's really sad and annoying when people try to shut others down because of good information. It's not even controversial it's facts. There is also a lot of information and experiences linking grains, in particular gluten, with autistic responses. I've no doubt that residual chemical on non-organic vegetables and fruit have a lot to do with a sick body and symptoms. I think a cleaner diet and environment is how to keep roses and humans healthy and happy. I like your approach and thinking. Plus, you post links to your information which is the best way for some one to make up there own mind. Need more people like you. ;]

I try not to use pesticides, neem oil at times, but, I have used fungicides. I know that just as with humans, you have to give the immune response a chance to strengthen and work with a healthy, non- toxic load in diet. and environment. Makes sense that this would irk for other living things.
This is one that I haven't had to spray or adjust anything and she's been growing so well for me for 3 years. Aunt Margy's Rose. Beautiful delicate fragrance, too.


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Here's a better newer flower. Love this cutie!
Am slowly learning and transitioning to a non pesticide yard with help from folks, here. Will be interesting and I'm sure rewarding.

This post was edited by aztcqn on Mon, Apr 21, 14 at 16:11


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Hi aztcqn: I'm very happy to see pics. of your rose Aunt Margy's ... I have been a fan of that rose for the past 3 years, so dainty and delicate. Thank you for posting.

There's a price to be paid for upsetting nature's balance. In my zone 5a, this past winter was bad: lots of ice storms. We ran out of potassium chloride, so we use rock salt to de-ice the front steps. The salt killed my rhododendron and azaleas bush (they are over 12 years old).

There's a price for any greed. Fertilizer and chemical spray increases crop-yield, but at a terrible cost to human heath. The medical cost of Alzheimer's & Parkinson's & Autism far exceed the increase in crop-yield.

Roses have been grown without spray for centuries, and gave folks countless enjoyment. The advent of spraying roses with chemicals bring a bad-name to a beautiful flower. People whom I offered free roses, all turned down, citing that roses are too fussy (require spraying, etc.).

There's an organic rose grower, Moyesii, who posted stunning pics. in HMF. I invited Moyesii to post in Organic Rose, but she declined, citing "too many corporate sleuths". She's right, the corporate sleuths are very aggressive, such as recommending Bayer spray in this forum when someone specifically asked for organic way.

It's unethical and greedy to promote chemicals at the expense of someone else's health, but people do anything for money. Below is a link to Moyesii's absolutely beautiful roses, grown without any chemicals in New York.

Here is a link that might be useful: Moyesii's garden in HMF


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Hi, Strawberryhill, I have been reading your posts with interest--and gratitude!--for the past few weeks as I have recently acquired a lot of roses and plan to grow my collection soon. I think your information for growing healthy roses without chemicals is priceless and I can't find many others that offer it.

One thing that struck me was that you mentioned lime is better for acidic soils than gypsum in terms of raising pH to prevent black spot. I bought lime (calcium carbonate fine powder from kelp4less) for some new Austins and Belinda's Dream planted in my acidic clay (amended with leaf compost and top dressed with worm castings and epsom salts). I am unsure how to apply the lime, though. Can you help?


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Hi lovesblooms: Thank you for your support, your kind words help with what I went through in Rose forum last year, being called a "troll" and "fictitious character" by MichaelG over the issue of liming.

Lime has been documented in many agriculture studies to increase crop yields. My brother with 30+ acres in Michigan limed his acidic clay, with a big improvement in his crops. There's a blog by Raft Island Roses Owner Frank Gatto with hundreds of roses. Here's a summary of his tips for acidic soil, PNW area:

"For planting, Gatto mixes 50 percent native soil and 50 percent organic compost or good potting soil and adds a cup each of bone meal and soil sweetener (lime) per bush. He also gives established plants a cup of lime in March, for optimal soil pH."

Gatto advises giving roses small but frequent meals. He uses a granular fertilizer with an N-P-K number no higher than 20 (such as 15-15-15), along with a blend of organic meals including alfalfa, cotton seed, fish, blood and kelp (about a half a cup) every three weeks."

**** From Straw: Some excerpts from the below:

"Liming while plants are growing may harm those plants, so wait until after the garden season. It is best to add garden lime in the fall and let it break down over the winter."

*** Agree, liming is best in early spring or fall when there's plenty of rain (pH of rain is 5.6, versus pH of lime at 9.9).

"The most common lime used in the garden is agricultural lime or ground limestone (calcium carbonate). Pelletized lime can be dispensed from fertilizer spreaders and less messy to work with."

*** Lime has a salt index of 4.7, much lower than gypsum salt index of 8.1.

"Never use hydrated or slaked lime, sometime called quicklime. While this substance has many commercial uses, it is much too caustic for the garden."

*** I agree, hydrated lime is what municipals put in their tap water, very unstable and binds with potassium.

Both bone meal and ground limestone hardly move, thus need to be raked into the top few inches. Lime is recommended for the fall, to let the snow & rain over the winter to work down the root zone. Studies showed that phosphorus from bone meal applied on top, only move down 1 inch per year.

As the pH drops, calcium, potassium, and phosphorus are less available. Bone meal is alkaline, it raises the pH, with 23% calcium and 14% phosphorus. As you can see in the link: http://www.ingredients101.com/bone.htm

Chemical analysis of bone meal showed measurement in ppm (1 milligram per kilogram soil (mg/kg) )
400 iron, 120 magnesium, 50 manganese, 300 sodium, 200 aluminum, 2,000 sulfates, 20 potassium, 100 zinc, and 400 chlorides.

What I don't like about bone meal are low in potassium, high in chloride, and EXCEEDINGLY HIGH in sulfates, great for burning plus the perfect recipe for rust.

Back to your question, "I bought lime (calcium carbonate fine powder from kelp4less) for some new Austins and Belinda's Dream planted in my acidic clay (amended with leaf compost and top dressed with worm castings and epsom salts).

Both Menards and Home Depot sell pelletized lime for the garden .. I don't know how fast that works compared to lime powder from Kelp4Less. Worm casting NPK is 3.2-1.1-1.5, very low in phosphorus and potassium. I'm NOT impressed with worm casting performance in U. of Kentucky's experiments with organic fertilizers.

If your soil is sticky clay, skip the Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate). That stuff is high in salt & high in magnesium. Magnesium is what makes clay soil sticky. Magnesium deficiency is very rare, usually happens only in sandy soil. My heavy & sticky, and alkaline clay is tested exceedingly HIGH in magnesium by Earthco. soil testing company.

Roses need more potassium, compared to other crops. So when I buy organic fertilizer mix, I always look for a bigger number for potassium, like Tomato-Tone 3-4-6, with 6 for potassium. Banana peels with NPK 0-3-42 are recommended for roses, but the drawback is its slow-release, versus faster release of sulfate of potash.

Good luck in your liming the garden, and please inform as to how that turn out. Lots of people have acidic clay, and would benefit from your experience. Thank you in advance.

Here is a link that might be useful: Liming with garden lime

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Sun, Jun 22, 14 at 11:21


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Great, beautiful blooms everyone! Wow! I am so impressed.

Strawberryhill, you are so knowledgeable. I am learning a lot reading your posts. I'm going to try the tomato fertilizer on my roses.


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

Totally agree. StrwbrryHl, you are SO knowledgeable and your generous wealth of info, experience and links are valuable and definitely appreciated here. I am now dealing with an outbreak of mealy bug on dozens of cactus, but, am making an effort to find controls that don't harm bees or birds. I scrutinize the labels of everything before I make a choice.
I love all the info on rose growing.
Strwbrryhl, do you know if the stems of Aunt Margy droop because of genetics? It is too weak and thin to hold up the double blooms, the flowers all look down. :[
I was just reading your post indicating sulfate of potash (is this potassium?) helps strengthen stems and also makes roses resistant to fungus. :]
AM getting my organic arsenal ready for next month to start improving my roses off this horrible rust issue I have..and I would love your advice on solution to weak stems?
Ez
P.S.
My interests are wide.....and enjoy growing many other types of plants. If anyone is interested in visiting, I'm having better luck with these guys.....
My Prickly Herd

This post was edited by aztcqn on Wed, Apr 30, 14 at 1:05


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Hi aztcqn: Thank you for that link "My Prickly Herd", you have a green-thumb ... I love the dark pink blooms on your cactus.

Suflate of potash (potassium sulfate) has 50% potassium at NPK 0-0-50. Sufficient potassium and calcium are half of the solution to weak stems. The other half is fluffy soil with organic matter to makes water-absorption effective.

Gardenseek posted "Rose Hugel" blog on how to prevent wilting in hot weather with a wood chips-mixed in. For his clay soil in San Francisco area, a 50% bark mixed with 50% clay yielded the best no-wilt result. Bark retains more water than peat moss, when buried underground. Bark is less compact, thus provides more oxygen to roots, with the result of greener leaves and less wilting.

Chicken manure has 9% calcium, plus adequate potassium for strong stems. I already tested horse manure, chicken manure, gypsum, high-potassium cocoa mulch, banana peels, sulfate of potash .... none was effective on Frederic Mistral rose. It kept on wilting with weak stem, no matter how much water given.

Then I dug up that rose, and found the soil was very compact. So I mixed in coarse sand & leaves ... made the soil fluffy, and Frederic Mistral from that time had strong stems which never wilt, even at 100 degrees heat.

Compost is even better, because compost has higher-water retention and more nutrients than pine-park. Peat moss is bad for clay: Frederic Mistral's hole was made originally with 1/2 peat moss & 1/2 clay ... which compressed over time into concrete.

If your soil is rock-hard clay like mine, then large chunks of fluffy bark & leaves would aerate and holds more water underground. If your soil is loamy, or sandy, then finer particles like compost would be best. Both methods would speed up the upward motion of water for rigid stem.

If you stick a straw into 2 medium: sticky clay (pudding-texture), versus loose gravels in water, which would draw up water faster? That's the logic for wood chips mixed in with clay, to speed up water going upward in dry & hot conditions.

Here is a link that might be useful: Rose Hugel blog by GardenSeek

This post was edited by Strawberryhill on Tue, Jul 15, 14 at 10:33


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

Thanks, Strawberryhill. That information was very helpful, especially the info from Gatto.

Hm. I'll try digging the lime in as deep as I can around the edges of the planting holes, because they're on a slope, so if I don't incorporate it very well, I'm sure it will go right downhill with the rain runoff anyway. I hope to counteract the magnesium I added.

I've had incredible overnight results with worm castings in all my plants in terms of greening up and new growth this winter under more controlled indoor conditions, so I'm sure it could help the roses, too--but probably more as an overall tonic. I've noticed new growth, but it's spring anyway. I'll add something high potassium as well.

Thanks--I think your info helps others become less intimidated by the chemistry. If we begin to work with it, I imagine we'll re-learn (probably the hard way, but hey!) what we may have naturally known before and begin to feel the rhythm of our plants again, which is all chemistry really is.

Please keep posting your findings. I plan to post mine, too. Even honest mistakes, once noted, can certainly help us all.


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

Awesome Strawberryhill!!!! Thank you for the connections.

First thing, I am going to get soils testing on various areas. I am going to add whole corn meal at the next feed for all the roses and hope the powdery mildew and rust stop. Love reading about your experience with bark chips.
There is an Al's mix formula that I borrowed from these forums that recommends pumice and bark chips and all my roses and basically all my non-succulents are planted in it. They do much better with open airy mix, except for heat-waves...and actually there's a group of old rose Gallicas that are showing to be super tough with lush growth. But, I suppose the feed is where they may get weak as I have to step up the nitrogen in these mixes. These are also the plants that have rust issue. Hope the cornmeal reverses this, soon. Make plant healthy and strong and they can fend off attacks better, just like in humans.


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Thank you, aztqn and lovesbloom for sharing your experiences, I learn from you as well. You are on the save wavelength as I am: I believe in honesty, speaking for myself, and being nice & supportive in growing roses.

That's the least I could do to return the favor: when I was in junior high, I walked daily to school. There was a house with a rose-garden in front, that's the high-light of my lonely years in junior high. I wish people would grow more roses, they really up-lift the spirits of folks who walk by.


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This thread has so many pics. that Seaweed has a hard time loading from her old lap top. But I can post her pics. fast with my new PC, below is a bouquet from Seaweed's garden.

Top, Sweetness (2) Oklahoma, Fragrant Cloud. 2nd row, William Shakespeare, Memorial Day, Libeszauber (big, center), Blue Moon (lighter shade of lavender), Rock & Roll (very fragrant)

3rd row, George Burns (more yellow hue parent to Rock & Roll), Sweetness and Lasting Love (tree rose).


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Oh I love the blooms! Thank you for sharing! Keep them coming! :)


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Yes Strawberryhill, they def uplift me. On my walks, I will pick streets and paths where there are the most flowers. Any rose over the fence will get a nose in its flower. The blooms off my plants are the best motivator for getting up in the mornings, literally. I will get -up (I'm not a morning person) and run out in the early morning with a camera to see the first openings of a cactus flower. The roses I love for toughness in our dry climate. They have all adapted to the Cali summers, but, I have't quite organized the routine of feeding and amendments, foe stronger plants and better blooms. Grateful for this thread and info.

I'm happy to report that there has been no rust on any of the roses. Don't know if it's because the air has dried out with season of summer just round the corner. I did apply whole cornmeal to all the pots. Since then there hasn't been an invasion of orange spots and my poor roses finally have a little break to put out clean healthy leaves. However, grasshoppers are enjoying an occasional munch on the foliage. I can live with that.

Wow, such beauties, seaweed0212! I LOVE Will Shakespeare. I am partial to maroons and wines. I also have Fragrant Cloud sporting one fat bloom with its gorgeous scent. Thanks for posting these StraBH.


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Hi aztcqn: I'm glad to hear that your rust is gone. Rust happened to my Sonia Rykiel rose when it was in a pot ... I forgot to water it, plus the weather was dry. With my experiment of inducing rust by dumping gypsum (calcium sulfate) on Evelyn, I'm convinced that University of Nebraska is right about low potassium inducing rust.

There's an inverse relationship between calcium (in gypsum) and potassium. As the calcium level rises, less potassium available, and vice-versa. Pat Austin is known as weak-neck. She's droopy for 3 years, until this past fall I gave her gypsum and sulfate of potash .. now her canes got bigger & sturdier, and no more droopy necks. Pat never has rust, regardless of the weather. Here in Chicagoland I get 4 seasons: wet & humid, also dry & hot.

I love Fragrant Cloud's color, but can't grow it due to my cold zone 5a. We have grasshopper in early fall (when it's dry), I sneaked behind them and cut them into half with my scissor, it worked wonder. Before I tried unsuccessfully to smash them ... and they jumped fast.

Seaweed sent me this bouquet of her Fragrant Cloud rose .. she said it smelled wonderful:


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So beautiful!
Clipped the gypsum/potassium for very near future reference. Thank you!


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Seaweed has such intense BLUE / LAVENDER roses, I think it's from the trace-elements of the compost she used ... would like to ask Seaweed on that. Thanks.

Few years ago I used mushroom compost (horse manure) .. it's alkaline, but rich in trace elements. My W.S. 2000 was bluish purple, same with Wise Portia.

I checked on the hardiness of all the blue/lavender Seaweed posted. Blue Moon is hardy in zone 5 ... lots of people like that one. Sweetness is not offered anywhere, not even Regan. Neptune is too thorny for me, plus folks reported that the color is almost gray, or pink, rather than blue.


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

  • Posted by evonline Zone 4b Missoula, Mo (My Page) on
    Sun, Jun 22, 14 at 2:19

The photos in this conversation are thrilling. Thanks to the people who took the time to post the photos of their remarkable flowers. Very inspiring.


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RE: Bouquets of no-spray roses

  • Posted by jim1961 6a Central Pa. (My Page) on
    Sun, Jun 22, 14 at 12:28

Yes great pics everyone! :-)
Loads of great looking roses in this thread!


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