From what I've read, sour milk is just for powdery mildew and not blackspot. It doesn't work for blackspot. My friend Jim is currently doing research on other organic alternatives such as corn meal, raw fish oil foliar spray and Greencure combinations, but BS is very, very difficult to control. It's sort of the theory, might as well try what we can and experiment, experiment, experiment--it can't hurt type of mentality.

For me, a hybrid tea grower, it's become lowering my expectations and living the balance between nature, the overall health and resilience of the rose to overcome defoliation, etc. It involves testing for the perfect balance but letting the rose basically fend for itself. So long as there's good sunlight/good nutritional feeds like Alfalfa Tea and Sea Tea/good soil for the rose, I believe the rose can overcome most anything. And if it doesn't, then what will be, will be. If there were an organic cure-all for BS, I'm sure it would have been discovered decades ago. The organics-faithful have always tried as hard as they can to find the ultimate best solution but I think we have to be honest and let go of wishful thinking and not be fooled by hype. BS is BS, it's a reality especially if you're trying to grow hybrid teas exclusively.

Several years ago there was an article in, I believe, Organic Gardening magazine about some USDA researchers in Brazil that had found that a 50/50 raw milk and water controlled tobacco mosaic on tobacco plants better than anything else. Further studies indicated that a 50/50 mixture of fat free milk and water would help control many viruses including Powdery Mildew and Black Spot. Since I have seen much about milk and water and many different dilutions, but what I find is that the 50/50 mixture works for me and the others do not. I have only seen one reference to using spoiled milk and that was from a brief article in a German publication. ATTRA had several articles on this subject for a while but I've not been able to find them lately.
The best way to control Black Spot is to make the soil the roses are growing in into a good, healthy soil so the roses can grow strong and healthy and better able to ward off plant diseases of all kinds. Any spray should be a last resort means of controlling any plant problem.

Milk doesn't work for blackspot-it's still hype--blackspot loves rain, coolness and humidity and will eventually get out of control when climate conditions are ideal. Tons of testimony about that from rose breeders/organic rosarians who don't spray. Jim has done even more research than I have and sent me the links and correspondence. Also the more roses you grow side-by-side, the easier it is for blackspot to manifest itself and spread from rose to rose. You can try all kinds of remedies but they will eventually fail. It's a matter of having a healthy rose that can survive even with the blackspot and having a more resistant variety. Blackspot doesn't care how good the soil nutrients are, but! the roses do care about the soil! As Kimmsr says soil nutrients, having sea tea/fish emulsion make for a healthy rose and healthier survival. But to say Blackspot can be "cured" organically is naive and will make newbie organics people frustrated and disappointed. Instead I think it's better to say, your roses may get BS but you can still enjoy them and they can still flourish overall. It's not really my business, but I have seen several new people drop out of organics rose growing because they eventually gave up and sprayed synthetic fungicide. I too had to partially drop out to save a rose, but am going to retry the organics again, because of my Border Collie and wanting to keep her safe while playing frisbee in our yard. The hassle and dangers of synthetic fungicides is just not worth it and I finally decided that I value my puppy girl's health and happiness more than a rose.

I will only say when it comes to organic vs chemical sprays vs black spot the organics are the less expensive choise from dramatic- K to Serenade, Sea Teas and or emulsions even the home brew backing soda dish soap idea I am willing to try

for pest I picked K -Neem which does help with powdery mildew and other light fungus born diseases ( help not cure ) Next season I plan on potted geraniums that can be removed or moved about for control of the only pest I had a problem with this season which was leaf cutter bees I am hopefull for good results next season

I did read up on some of them chemical sprays and pondering there promises vs price I still remaine 0% convinced that they can do ALL that they claim and I am not willing to pay up to 30 $ a bottle for a premix of chemmies I only had to read that guarantee: They'll refund your money only if you are not satified with the results ( BS isnt going away no way) at the rate of one unused bottle per household per life time. I only assume they'd tell me I didnt use it right so the refund is void (can they spell something I wont type here)

Yes I too have read up a bit on foilage feeding and yes I will be doing them steps too I even got a notion to say to one of my HT's adapt or die but I still BS battle for it with hopes for a better season next year

Wes, I agree that organics can help alleviate BS a little, whereas synthetic fungicides are highly effective but also quite harmful to humans in either one way or another (sterility, birth defects, carcinogens if you breathe it in, etc.)... We can try organics and keep experimenting but we also have to be realistic and not get too upset when the BS wreaks havoc.

Wes, do not get rid of your leafcutter bees with Neem. Neem is also bad for the health of honeybees and bumblebees. If you are using it to get rid of leafcutter bees it will have the same detrimental effect to the rest of the bees.

Be sure you don't get leafcutter bees mixed up with rose slugs. Leafcutter bees only cause very minor damage--just a bare handful of dime-shaped holes and once they finish building their tiny nests (usually in spring), they never bother you again. You shouldn't try to get rid of leafcutter bees. They're good pollinators.If you are getting lots of these holes, it's the damage from rose slugs. Safer insecticidal soap will get rid of rose slugs without hurting bees.

Sorry, serenasyh, but I have seen the 50/50 mixture of milk eliminate Black Spot and have heard from many people all over the world that have seen the same thing happen. If it has not worked for you there must be other reasons.

I have to agree with serenasyh, as this milk thing seems to be as useless as the Cornell formula, but stinkier. I have not heard anyone claim that it works. Perhaps it works for people who have just a few roses and hover over them every day?

If a rose blackspots badly, the best organic cure is a shovel.

nope, I haven't tried it but have researched/googled countless sources too!!!! they say at the best it will only alleviate a fraction of blackspot, NEVER COMPLETELY ELIMINATE BLACKSPOT!!! Even the humble baking soda and fish emulsion foliar feeds are far!!! more effective than milk from my online research and the organics rosarians always choose foliar fish spray instead. I hate to have a wage-on war about this, but it's the organic rosarians who completely disagree with you. Climate, rains are the predominant factors of blackspot outbreak. You cannot win against the weather. Jim has contacted several no-spray rosarian experts. I have contacted just one. My readings were online about the milk and never! have I found any that said that milk completely cured blackspot. All have said there was just a little relief at the very best. My question for you Kimmsr are what hybrid teas/exhibition-bloomers and how many??????!!! do you grow!

The principal of organics is sacrifice. For organics people who want to grow exhibition flowers, then GOOOOOD Luck! you have to accept that during high stress weather you will have BS outbreaks and rather ugly foliage but your roses will still endure with good nutrients and good balanced soil. But you have to accept the Good with the Bad and the Ugly during heavy rain seasons.If you don't want to put up with ugly foliage during key seasons then get hardier roses like the pretty, lively simplicity of rugosas or the plain drab everywhere-kind of rose like knockouts. Many floribundas are also more disease-resistant, but not as resistant as the rugosas and knockouts. I don't care for floribundas and even grandifloras. I only like the hybrid teas and fragrance is the ultimate requirement-hence the fragility of the roses I select. You get what you ask for is my philosophy.

I just don't want newbies to get frustrated by naive assumptions of organics cure-alls for Blackspot. It doesn't work. If you'd like for me to post my photos of my roses just let me know....They're doing quite well... I just know that it's only a matter of time before they become like other typical hybrid teas growing in Kansas--blackspot- infested. Only one of mine is really struggling with BS currently.

Ah, so we have someone who does not believe in the organic method coming to an organic forum to tell people it does not work. One of the principle concepts of organic gardening is that a good, healthy soil will grow strong and healthy plants that are better able to ward off plant diseases and insect pests, and it does work. Many people, such as Lee Reich, Ann Lovejoy, Rebecca Coles, and others I cannot recall now have written extensively about making your soil good, and healthy so your plants will grow strong and healthy so you will see fewer problems.
I have Queen Elizabeth, Abe Lincoln, Kings Ransom, and some others I don't recall the name of right off that do not have any problem with Black Spot. The only time I have seen it is one new plants from a nursery and after treating them with the milk spray, and cleaning the infected leaves from the plant, I don't see it.

I don't think serenasyh is saying that organics don't work, She is talking about the difficulty of growing hybrid teas organically. One might ask why someone comes to a rose forum and when they don't seem that interested in roses? Why don't I see you on the other rose forums, especially the antique rose one where many posts discuss growing roses no-spray?

I do believe in the organic method, but not for all types of roses, therefore I choose my roses carefully.

Luckily for me, I don't care for hybrid teas, preferring the old garden roses. Many of these are not susceptible to blackspot at all, especially the gallicas. I also have beautiful foliage all year long on many albas, ramblers, rugosas, and mosses. Many modern shrub roses also do well, especially those with thick, shiny foliage.

Kimmsr, of course good, healthy soil is the most important thing in gardening. (But many new gardeners have NO IDEA what you are talking about when you play your same record. Many live in new subdivisions where the topsoil has been scraped away and there's not a tree in sight).

But some roses will get blackspot anyway despite the soil they are growing in. Perhaps not as much in your colder climate. I have roses in the same bed, one will get blackspot and completely defoliate, while the others will remain completely clean. THEY ARE IN THE SAME SOIL!!

Organic rose growing is all about planting healthy varieties in the first place (yes, in "good, healthy soil").

Thanks Maureen! You put it so well. Again, I think that many exhibition form hybrid teas are very difficult to control BS with and that Organic rose growing is all about planting healthy varieties, or either putting up with BS nightmares during heavy rains for fragile exhibition roses. Fortunately organics do! at least work for powdery mildew. Powdery mildew is a very easy fix. It's BS which is the nightmare during key climate stresses.

I too have really questioned about Kimmsr because one has to have a passion for roses too. We never see him at the Rose Discussion or other Rose Forums, he doesn't know the names of his other roses besides Lincoln and QE which are very basic roses-the type that head the list for easy rose-growing and for "newbies". So my guess is that roses are a very tiny/minor part to his garden. A mere handful of roses interspersed. This is also a key factor. Plus his climate is not the heavy BS territory, anyway!!!

If he were to live in Georgia or New Jersey, I'm sure he'd realize this. All the organics rosarians (Paul Barden for example) that Jim and I checked grow hundreds of roses and have both experience and knowledge about healthy soil. And they all say that organics is useless with Blackspot under high-stress climates. Powdery mildew, on the other hand, is an easy fix it seems.

Another thing that troubles me is that all Kimmsr can talk about is healthy soil. He doesn't talk about roses themselves. On our organics forum we have a wonderful thread called Roses That Are Truly Resistant to Blackspot. Never do we see him add suggestions or have any interest in such roses. So I'm thinking is the only passion, soil?? What about roses themselves? What about bees,honeybees and herbs that go well with roses, such stuff like that? Getting involved with other rose folks to let them know about organics gardening, letting them know the dangers of pesticides like Sevin, which wipes out/destroys honeybee colonies? We never hear about this from Kimmsr? so of course I'm really, really puzzling over this. To me organics is about INVOLVEMENT no matter the odds. You can't just sit in one's isolationist corner and just blab on about soil.

Organics is holistic, it involves everything!

P.S. Maureen I am looking forward to your suggestions about rugosas. I will post later tonight.

I keep repeating the information about good, healthy soil because there are always new gardeners coming here and some people that have gardened for a few years have never been told about good, healthy soil, and some others just never get the message. I have seen some write about the good, healthy soil that you need not do what is suggested, and no you do not need to do any of that. But if you have a problem that is persistant, whether plant disease or insect pests, there is a reason and it is most often related to the soil the plants are growing in.

To me good healthy soil, soil balancing test is what every rose grower should do. It takes no genius or any of your input to figure that out. It's Rose Care 101. It says it everywhere online. But what you keep discrediting are the organic rosarians who say that blackspot cannot be "cured" by good soil and it cannot be cured by milk. You are not a rosarian and do not raise roses for a living. Good soil is crucial for their livelihood and they have plenty of experience with Rose 101!

Good soil only makes a rose stronger, healthier and more viable but it's weather which has a profound influence on the presence of blackspot. Have you not read Maureen's statement about same soil but different blackspot results?

Many hybrid tea roses are notorious for being blackspot magnets. To me with organic rose-growing one should of course! have good healthy soil. But for those who want to grow exhibition hybrid teas we have to accept reality that if there's too much incessant rains and we have fragile types of roses, we will get blackspot. But with healthy soil our roses will not only continue to bloom and give us much delight but they will also survive the blackspot.

If you wish to grow and exhibit hybrid Tea Roses then organic gardening is not for you, because you need a lot of poisons to have exhibition quality roses, today. But you can grow good, healthy roses organically although they may have a few minor blemishes. If someone has some plants, no matter what type, growing near each other and some do not get a disease while others do get that disease and the plants are the same cultivar then it must be the soil they are growing in, there is something different with that soil even if it appears to be the same. The only other explanation is that they are different plants, different cultivars.

That's what I've been saying the whole time here. Grr!

me, too, MaureenMD I too have to add my grrrrrrs.

You already made this as clear as day to Kimmsr. I am beginning to think we're writing to a brick wall, LOL!

And he is also still nonsensically denying the effect that continuous rains have in triggering outbreaks of blackspot. That to me is very frustrating.

I am thinking about posting a new, realistic thread on what blackspot is and how organics rosarians/experts deal with it. Those sites are far more helpful for newbie organics people who are still feeling their way around on how to deal with BS. I found a few really knowledgeable site links and will post later on it.