The link to Illinois is 1987, and to Oregon was 2000. The ARS one did not come up.

I live in Oklahoma where we get temps in the 90's very early. I have had roses that remained without leaves after about June. Had the black spot gone away, they would have grown leaves.

I thought that the new information that came out this year indicated that you don't need to worry about black spot in the ground. We do need to keep our gardens clean and be sure the air will get through.

Who is Jim, and are you working on a project of some sort together? I thought the one Jim I know from the Roses Forum knew about black spot.

The best way to avoid black spot is to grow roses that are rather disease free. Many of us have good lists for roses to grow, but they usually do not include the huge dramatic hybrid teas.

Sammy

Sammy is your computer a Mac by the way? This may be the reason why you are missing some of the links. I noticed in Jim's thread about horticultural myths that you couldn't copy/locate the links as well.

My links all work. I double checked. What you should see is excerpts from the American Rose Annual.

Actually Sammy I still think that blackspot does indeed overwinter and it re-infects. That is why many a time people end up shovel-pruning their sick roses because the roses just look too bare and yucky and they never can quite regain enough sufficient strength. But roses to me are actually very tough. There may be seasons when they look uglier than others, but when they are strong, oh, they look so beautiful. Sort of takes my breath away, that is why I can live with that blackspot.

You and Jim are definitely right in getting rid of disease magnet roses. It's stubborn me who wants the highly fragranced hybrid teas. So long as they keep on re-foliating and reblooming I am happy. If my roses get a little blackspot, I don't care so long as they have lots of leaves to replace the ones they lose. I have been very lucky with mine in that this year only one has struggled. But it is a fighter rose! It kept on blooming and has tons of new leaves even in this cold weather. The irony is that rose used to be so healthy and strong, no Blackspot until the very last week of August when the rains started drenching us. The blackspot came out basically overnight. I do believe that producing 45 blooms on its 3rd flush tired out the rose and it didn't have enough strength to fight off the blackspot.

Jim is Jim1961. Both of us are very new to roses, that's why we have to do all this research and digging around. So whatever he finds, he shares with me. We also keep bugging our favorite organics rosarians too, LOL! for information.

Sammy perhaps it is the ongoing heat that is stressing the roses? Are they getting enough water during those times of high heat? Perhaps that is what is preventing them from re-foliating. Also I really depend on my Gardenville organic sea tea. It has very low NPK values so it doesn't overload the soil but it truly is the miracle food for my roses. When roses severely defoliate they need a little gentle help. As soon as I got my one full-shade rose transplanted into the sunshine it immediately healed and the sea tea produced tons of healthy clean leaves for it.

If I didn't have that Gardenville I wouldn't have the strong viable roses that I do have.

By the way, I also noticed in terms of 90 degree weather is that many desert Californians don't have problems with blackspot, so that is why I put 2 and 2 together, plus the info from the links. Also my Garden was so pristine from any blackspot during the Spring and Summer months with the blazing sunlight.

I am down to less than 200 roses at this time. I have been studying the diseases for many many years and have had ongoing discussions with others on the Antique Rose Forums. Some of my roses like Distant Drums, Sharifa Asma, Honey Sweet, and Prairie Star simply would have nothing to do with a no spray garden. Little by little I have removed most of the roses and have been replacing them with those that are more tolerant.

We have had a very rainy fall, and my roses do not look too good, but to me, there are really no products that I care to use that would rid the roses of black spot. I prefer to select varieties that will grow without spray.

I will try to look up my sources, but I do believe in the past year I have read that we do not need to pick up the leaves that have black spot. The fungus does not grow from the soil. But even if that is true, and the most recent report, it could change in time.

We have huge problems here with black spot, and I am not sure why, but yours and my zones are quite different.

By the way I read the posts here in reverse. Yours did not make much sense to me until I read Jim's. When I tried the links in the past, I reached an index. I saw nothing about myths. I do have a Vista, not a Mac, but sadly the problem may be the typist, not the machine.

I don't know why California does not have trouble with black spot, but I think southern Texas does.

Of course one we begin weeks with temps over 100, we water frequently, and we water the leaves.

Must go.

Sammy

Thanks Sammy for sharing so much of your growing experience! I will be very interested if you find that link.

The only puzzle I know is that watering the leaves is the worst thing for blackspot. It's fine to water frequently, just not the leaves. Granted that is a major pain in the behind to do so with 200 roses. And yes that incessant rain is MADDENING! I blame everything on rain! To me it should rain twice a week at the very most and leave it at that! LOL! If only we could boss and plea bargain with Mother Nature, LOL!

I used to control the watering more than I do now. Often when our hot spells come, I just spray the leaves so the roses can get the water and cool down.

Having said that, I am determined to find roses to suit my growing conditions, and not try to make a black spot vulnerable rose stay clean. The cost for me has been very very expensive. I have almost redone my garden, and have removed some of my most outstanding roses.

I have watched people take their roses to competition for years, and this year I entered some roses. It was very sad to see my OGR's against the magnificent blooms of the Hybrid Teas.

My gardening is only for me and my friends now. I intend to invite more people to see my garden, but taking my roses to a show will not work. It would work if I had time to try to teach people about my world, but I don't have that time. One good thing for me is that I met two people when I took my roses to the Fair, and they said they only grew organically. That means that there are 3 of us in our local society.

I spent some time yesterday looking for the links I have seen recently about black spot, and I cannot find them. I cannot even think of the University where they came from. But I have seen many links where people have said that with the new information we have, we can save time by just ignoring those leaves instead of picking them up.

Sammy

Sammy I think I found your 2009 article. However you still have to pick off the fallen foliage and here is why (if you keep on reading)... You see you have to read between the lines. All it is saying is that blackspot hides in the leaves so not all foliage can be stripped away in time. And also if water splashes up from the infected leaves it will re-infect healthy leaves. Water is indeed the primary carrier and spreader of blackspot. Try to avoid watering the leaves as much! as possible. You will probably see a major improvement in your roses. It's too bad that it gets so hot in Oklahoma. For me I'm going to try summer foliar feeds of fish oil to slow down the blackspot. Blackspot and powdery mildew seem to hate the sodium of the oils. It is a very good buffer against blackspot but the danger is heat and the oils burning out the leaves. It can get quite hot in KS just not as scorching as Oklahoma. I will be the guineau pig and let you know how my leaves do with that fish oil buffer during our hot summer season.

"Spreading Spores

Respattering can carry the spores even farther. This time lag between actual infection and observable symptoms
, and the fact that we have no control after infection starts, results in frequent widespread infection in a rose garden without the gardener realizing the presence of blackspot. It also accounts for the often futility of picking off the black spotted leaves, since many infected leaves may be missed due to infection not showing yet, furthermore is the fact that the condition cannot be cleared up quickly and the only means of protection is preventive spraying against the unobserved infection.

The popular idea that blackspot passes the winter in the soil is not substantiated by fact. The living fungus has never been isolated from the soil and plants have never been given blackspot from "infested soils" alone. Plants are infected only from spores from other infected leaves or stems. This indicates the extreme importance in removing and destroying all foliage from plants during the winter and of pruning all tender growth.

Experiments have demonstrated that heavy pruning plus thorough clean-up of all foliage can materially delay the onset of blackspot infection in the spring. Reducing the over-wintering infection in this way can materially aid in the success of the seasons control program. Also for this reason blackspot control is more difficult where climbing roses are grown. Large climbers cannot be cleaned of foliage and pruned as thoroughly as bush roses and hence are a source of heavy and early infestation of the entire garden.

2009 article on blackspot

Again, blackspot is really induced by moisture! You must try to keep as much moisture away from the leaves... Roses need water only in their roots. Well, Sammy, I will have 5 climbers next year. Yikes! And yes, they are!!! hybrid teas. Whoo-boy! My other new roses will be the antique. rare roses.

That article is not what I read, and I do not believe that it is true. The leaves need the water. Water washes away dust, and is good for the leaves.

Where did you find that article? It reads as if all roses are equal. If that is true, then why is it that so many roses do not get black spot, yet others do? Many of us water when we wish, and cut when we wish.

Kansas and Oklahoma are entirely different zones. I am not sure that you are able to grow the teas and chinas that I love. I also think that to try to grow most hybrid teas and floribundas, yet maintain a semi disease free garden is futile.

Do you really remove the diseased leaves from the branches? A branch with no leaves to protect it really needs water. I seldom ever remove leaves. I count on their shade until the rose grows new leaves.

Do you study much of what has been written about diseases?
I am not sure that I can ever find what I read, but I have far too many roses to try to pick up fallen leaves.

What are the new roses that you will have next year? How about the rare antiques? Where do you find the antiques?

Sammy

Sammy, I also read about the new research showing that it is unnecessary to pick up fallen leaves, that blackspot doesn't overwinter on them. I am irritated that I cannot find it now, but I know I read about it on the antiques forum. I may ask over there. It makes sense to me as well.

Serena, for many years I have read the info that you provided and it never made much sense to me. Also, I would avoid any website called "Zone 10"! LOL! I have tried in the past to remove fallen leaves and it was a ridiculous task, as the leaves get mixed in with the mulch and compost and other leaves from spring bulbs, trees, etc. I'd have to remove wheelbarrows of organic material.

Also I used to be very careful about not watering the leaves but it didn't seem to matter - some roses got much bs and some did not. A wise poster (in my area!) noted that in or humid climate, the roses get covered in dew anyway (and rain) so dry rose leaves are an impossibility.

Not all the antiques are bs resistant, as I used to believe. I've had some damasks and centifolias that were disasters.

Hmmm, Maureen and Sammy I am thinking perhaps it's because I don't grow chockful of roses and don't have the "hundreds of roses" that you both have. For me, my roses only get a little blackspot when the incessant rains start and the shadows lengthen (in the fall, the shadow from the house interrupts the sun in the afternoon-my roses face East and normally get full sun until fall arrives when the West casts that shade).

LOL! I had to get the zone 10 because I couldn't find any other 2009 articles that Sammy referred to in terms of blackspot not having to be picked off the ground.

Maureen my Dad is a scientist so I tend to read on scientific papers (which the University of Washington and Illinois) provide. These papers actually define how blackspot grows and develops. Blackspot functions like a "virus" in a way, because it nestles into the leaf in a particular manner. Indeed the papers show that blackspot is spread by water especially. It demonstrates how the spores are spread. Dew actually dries much quicker when the rose has fewer leaves and there is plenty of air flow. But as one grows multitude of roses with bushier roses like Climbing roses, the harder it is to maintain clean grounds and that air flow. Plus the more roses are gathered the more highly vulnerable. Roses broken up with lots of other plants interrupts and buffers out the roses it seems because the blackspot cannot afflict any other plant besides the rose.

Sammy there are multiple science papers including those from the University of Washington that discuss the genes of resistant roses. We just didn't cover it because we were just talking about the disease process of blackspot and not the resistant genes of the roses.

Maureen, thanks for posting. I keep wondering if the poster was Malcolm, but I don't think that Florida has a black spot problem. The original poster was female, I think, then a discussion cam off of her casual remark. I think she said something like, now that we know the black spot won't move in the dirt, and we can leave the fallen leaves . . . .

After the discussion, I realized that some of my feelings may be correct. The feeder roots are tiny little feathery things, but the leaves are very large. Once it is over even 95, but 100 for weeks, it only makes sense that to keep the rose hydrated, you need to water the leaves. First you save the rose, then you worry about black spot.

Sammy

Sammy, Florida has a huge blackspot problem because of the warmth and humidity. My friend Harold says it's impossible not to spray in their region. They have problems with blackspot and a particular nematode which will kill every single one of their roses unless they are grafted onto Fortiana root stock.

What blackspot doesn't afflict is the dry, arid and hot zones of California and Arizona.

I still say that one shouldn't water the leaves if one can help it. Sammy, do you experience wilt leaves if you stop watering the leaves and just water the roots? Have you ever tried this? or have you always kept on watering the leaves. You might try an experiment--2 same-type roses. One with the watered leaves and one without. You see I did a similar experiment to assess Vitamin B1 root nourisher versus my Gardenville Sea Tea. I had identical transplanted lavender plants in the same soil. One I gave Vitamin B1 nourisher and the other I gave sea tea. The Vitamin B1 did very absolutely nothing; the Sea Tea created a boom in growth, vitality and number of leaves.

The only way is to do controlled experiments in one's own garden. I have 2 identical Lincolns, same soil. Next spring I will do 2 different kinds of foliar feeds to see which one is the most protective against the blackspot.

I think what Maureen is saying is that keeping leaves dry is pointless if one has bunches of rain anyway. But! what both articles say is that if you keep the leaves dry as much as you can possibly control-- that indeed will keep the blackspot from spreading. Dew, Maureen does not count! Dew only lasts briefly, about one hour and as soon as the sun rises it dries! Dew will not cause blackspot because it dries so quickly. Blackspot takes several hours of wetness before it starts to spread.

Both articles really stress that it is important to keep moisture away from the leaves as much as possible. There are certain things you can't control. If it's gonna keep raining for days, you will get the blackspot. The article gives specifics on the hours in between that blackspot will take to spread. Whether it be a span of greater than 7 hours of dryness (blackspot won't spread). However! if you have a resistant variety of rose, the slower the spread of the blackspot. If you combine watering the leaves then a few hours later it rains, you are actually increasing the time of wetness, making it opportune for the blackspot to have its ideal conditions.

I think you are missing the point here - that some roses get bs and others do not. Sammy has posted many times about the roses that have done well for her in HER climate, as she switched to no-spray. I followed her posts with interest and wrote down many of the varieties down, but I realize that she lives in a different climate, and would therefore have different results. I have also gotten invaluable advice from posters in MY area, who have noted how humid and warm it is here in the evening, and the plants are damp all night (not for an hour).

I'd take what the articles say with a grain of salt and just experiment until you find the roses that work for you. Good Luck!

Well, Maureen, I am definitely luckier. It dries very quickly where I live and we have baking, blazing sun to bake out the blackspot during the summers. Maureen, it's actually "most roses get BS and some do not". As opposed to vice versa.

A resistant variety will still get a little blackspot under climate stresses. Remember the articles only! cover the disease process of blackspot and not genetics. A blackspot resistant rose will tolerate rain and humidity quite well but they will get a little bit of blackspot if there's too much rains.

It depends on the rose, climate conditions, etc. We've had many weeks this year with 5'' or more of rain and many of my roses have no blackspot whatsoever, so I can't really agree with you. Of course, you grow different varieties in a different climate. We will have different results, so I don't think this discussion is going anywhere!

My bs-free roses include: Alice Vena, Mme. Plantier, Hippolyte, Henri Martin, Charles de Mills, Wasagaming, Roseraie de l'Hay, The Bishop, Smith's Parish, Charles Albanel, and some others that are too new to be judged. I could name my roses that have bad bs but it's depressing since I shovel-pruned the worst yesterday.

My 2 cents worth
I never even once gave thought that gardening was meant to be a choir. I find it best to make friends with my enemy no matter what there size (This one being BS)
Why cant I just enjoy removing leaves and doing the preventive stuff and such? After all I am the one who wanted that BS magnet rose or sometimes its my wife. I do think it as oddly ill for someone to tell me or her that we can't have something of our choise. You are right about one thing though, YOU DON'T THINK maybe you should try.

Me too Wes! I wholeheartedly agree. I read up on blackspot because it allows me to just understand it and the disease process, that's all and not to get all mad and surprised when it rears up, because I can expect it during certain key times of the year. For me the articles work because they are consistent with what has happened in my garden alone. It doesn't mean that someone else's garden will work the same way. But for me, those articles are the perfect representation of what has happened.

More importantly, I believe in Wes's philosophy that we just have to have a peaceable, friendly truce with nature and accept that BS and let live live. I don't demand perfection from my roses because I am an imperfect, flawed being. That's what's so wonderful about roses. You don't have to have perfection to have gorgeous blooms. Life is being willing to accept imperfections than having to do this spray, spray, spray thing. And even organics sprays is a lot of hassle. I will try my best, but if something doesn't work, so be it. I let live live, unless of course it's a non-scented rose. Then it's shovel, shovel, good riddance! LOL! Then I suddenly become a hypocrite when it comes to an unscented rose, haha. Unscented roses are imperfection that I cannot accept--hence the hypocrisy, LOL!

Wes and Maureen I do agree. The links are for anyone who is curious and who is new to roses. Just like you, Wes, I believe that there's no need to over-think anything. Guessworking BS drains too much time and energy. I just let my roses grow and let what happen happen.

Sammy, I'm going to get Marchesa Boccella. Krista showed me her beautiful gorgeous rose. It repeats very well and the bees love her. I hope to also get Heidesommer if the cuttings take, am triple-crossing my fingers on that miracle. I would be so thrilled if the Heidesommer cuttings survive.