Kim,
Thanks for your detailed reply. I have been raising op seeds for several years and like you said, it is a good way to see which germinate well and which seem more vigorous. I only tried pollinating one year and didn't do enough, as none of them set seed, or something happened to the hips. I was focusing on collecting a lot of different pollen, and then we had a lot of rain and I didn't get around to it. Plus, I'm really not sure when the stigmas are ready. I think someone told me to just pull off the petals and the stamens, and pollinate regardless of whether the stigma is sticky. What is your criteria for when a blossom is ready to pollinate? I also know of hybridizers who mix their pollen, so they don't really know the parent on one side.
I have not given any thought to genetics as I don't know anything about which roses have which types of genes, tetraploid or whatever. I have just observed which set seeds and which sprout. Maybe I would learn something if I joined the Rose Hybridizer's Association. I have ideas about what might make an interesting combination, but no idea if it would work or why. I have some seedlings that are wildly different from the parent plant. One is a deep pink that looks like a tea, is very healthy and reblooms very well but its parent is Dublin Bay. I assumed it was from cross pollination by bees, but you are saying that most likely it is just something Dublin Bay is capable of on its own?
Thank you,
Linda

Hi Linda, wow! There is a LOT to this post!

Yes, some breeders mix pollen. There are legitimate reasons to do this, and some not to. If the pollen you want to use is known not to be very successful (genetically incompatible, weak, etc.) mixing more viable pollen is one method of creating seeds in the hip to prevent it from being aborted if there are seed from the desired pollen which may take longer to mature. It's also done so more combinations can be explored faster, though, as you said, how would you know who the "father" of each one was unless each type is vastly different from each other.

I have mixed pollen, but usually only when I have much left over after making the crosses I wanted to make with few flowers remaining available for use.

See? You have probably hit your pollination difficulties on the head. Rain can degrade the stigmas and pollen, rendering them useless. Keeping both as dry as possible can significantly increase your chances. Some stigma get very sticky rather quickly while some remain very dry throughout the reproductive life. Blooming is ovulation, as you're likely aware. Some cultivars just have dry stigma pads. Some are less fertile because of it while others have decent fertility in spite of it. Experience and observation can teach you which are which rather quickly.

I know from my own experience and from a long friendship with Sequoia Nursery that there are benefits from flooding the stigmas with the desired pollen, sometimes even going back the second and even third days after initial pollination and reapplying it to make sure you've sufficiently flooded the stigmas for good fertilization. Mr. Moore would say he wanted to make sure the stigmas were "flooded" with pollen and with more difficult crosses, those between widely different rose types, then re flood them on successive days. I haven't done this because I am lazy and because I honestly don't have the time nor have I made room to store the various pollens for several days between uses. He would chalk a failed attempt at not applying sufficient pollen more often than not. Unless you're trying to cross very different species or difficult species with modern roses, you probably won't need to apply it more than once. If you have time and wish to, it won't hurt anything.

If you begin paying attention to the stigmas in the flower centers, you'll develop a feel for when they appear ready to pollinate. Initially, they are often fresh and dry looking, even waxy appearing, as in this photo. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.145993

After a while, depending upon the variety and your weather, they will often begin appearing more translucent, sticky, "wetter", as in this one. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.115198

This is how the stamen wrap themselves over the stigma to self pollinate. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.165332

Some varieties will easily accept pollen when freshly opened. Others, won't. Experience will teach you what to look for and to expect from the roses you're using. Some, Basye's Legacy for one, begin shedding their pollen long before the petals open, pollinating themselves before you can.

You CAN "emasculate" the flower intended to be the seed parent and begin pollinating it immediately, but if you choose to, I would suggest you make sure you have enough pollen to reapply it the next day, perhaps even a third one. If you remove the stamen and petals from a number of flowers of several types, then just watch them for a few days, you'll quickly develop a feel for when they are most ready, what they look like when ready, etc. This will vary quite a bit depending upon the prevailing weather conditions, as you'd expect. The hotter and drier it is, the faster they will dry out and even burn. When I was breeding roses in the hotter, drier Santa Clarita Valley here in Southern California, I often could emasculate a bud beginning to unfurl its petals in the morning and by that afternoon, the stigmas were already wet and stick, indicating they should be ready to accept and retain pollen. In cooler, damper times, it may take a day or two. That can also be the case depending upon the particular variety you are using, too.

I applaud your ingenuity of observing what your roses just do when left alone. Emulating Nature if often the easiest way to success with something like this. Working with her instead of against her. Amazing how we always seem to need to reinvent the wheel with everything, isn't it? When all we need to do most of the time is just look and listen. It's what I've always called the lazy way. See what works, then use it.

I'd suggest starting to poke your finger into various flowers in your garden when they begin flowering again. Paying attention to what they look like and how they feel can help you develop the feel for when to use them. You can also learn what to expect from specific varieties you grow this way. Sacrificing some flowers to observe how long they take to reach different stages will help you determine when to make your moves.

You haven't said how you collect and store your pollen. If you have questions about that part of it, please ask. I'll be happy to share with you what I do. There are MANY roads to success pollinating roses. What works for me in my climate may not be as successful for you in yours. I do try to keep it as simple, inexpensive and "low tech" as possible for it remains FUN and requires as little "work" as possible. If what you, or someone else does works well for you, don't change it! If it ain't broke, don't fix it! I'm happy to share information though, if you'd like.

The wonderful thing is, this is NOT difficult! It isn't rocket science and it doesn't require a ton of time, money nor room so we can all do it. I would seriously suggest joining Help Me Find as a premium member. The lineage data base then becomes your oyster! It makes a lot of difference knowing what is behind the rose you are considering using before you produce some undesirable babies from it. I know particular roses aren't very good where I live. I don't want to use things bred from them for fear of creating more bad ones here. Just as there are others which are magnificent here and I want to use because of their performance. Being able to see what each one has created will also give you an idea if they possess other traits you want to incorporate into your breeding ideas. It's WELL worth the $24 a year membership. Joining the Rose Hybridizers Association is also well worth it. You can read the forum there without joining but the newsletter contains articles of interest not available on line. Information for their membership is on the site. I haunt both sites and find them invaluable.

Have fun! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: RHA Forum

Kim,
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience. I am interested in how you collect pollen. The one time I did it I think I just pulled stamens off, put them in an envelope and labeled them. Not all the stamens seemed to release their pollen. I have heard of simplifying this process by just picking a bloom, removing the petals and brushing it on the other bloom's stigma. I would like to keep it as simple as possible. I am slightly intimidated by the process but I bet it does seem simple once you get the hang of it. I read somewhere that you want to collect pollen from a bloom that has not fully opened. I think the pollen might not be ripe if the bloom is too tight.

I think I will join hmf sometime soon. Before they made the breeding info unavailable to nonpaying members I took a lot of notes about which roses of mine have been used in breeding before. The cost of joining is little though and they deserve the money. It would be good to have that resource.

I have heard of people putting little paper bags over pollinated roses to protect them from weather and I guess further pollination. Do you do that?

I also want to simplify labelling. The time I tried it I put both parents' names on a little piece of mini blind with a hole punched in it and tied it to the stem. I think next time I'd just use a number and write down the info in a book. That way I could use that same number as many times as I wanted.

Thanks,
Linda

Yesterday I gathered some rose hips and collected the seeds. Some of the seeds showed signs of starting to grow. What do I do? Plant in soil in sun or keep in ref for later? This is new to me and please advise?

Marthaye

Hi Linda,

There are as many methods of pollen collecting as there are pollen collectors. The goal is to collect it in a way you can allow it to dry so the anthers release the pollen. Not all roses will easily release their pollen. Mr. Moore discovered that many modern roses had "defective anthers" which simply refused to release the pollen they contain. What he suggested and did, and what I've done for years, is to collect the stamen from a flower in a small container. Some use empty 35 mm film cans (remember them? LOL!). I was fortunate to be able to gather a small box of baby food jars nearly twenty years ago when my youngest sister had her two sons. They last until you break them, and they can be run through the dishwasher. I'm sure others will chime in to share their methods here. Fortunately, in this hobby, there is no "one, true religion". It really allows you to experiment and determine what works from what you have and where you are.

The aim is to collect the anthers, whether they're left on the stamen or cut off, cutting them from a bud which has just begun to open. You use flowers which are beginning to open because the pollen is the closest to being ready to use and because most haven't already begun shedding it on their own stigmas already. Too early, and it's not mature enough. Too late, and they likely have already done what you intend to do. You want the stamen as full of pollen as you can get them to maximize your efforts, and the stigmas as close to being ready as you can find them, but not already pollinated. You can use them further opened if you wish, but chances are they may have dropped some of their own pollen on the stigma. If that possibility isn't an issue to you, go for it. Remove the petals cleanly so they slip off without damaging the ovary. I use a small pair of curved manicure scissors. I've also used a straight edge razor blade. Any port in a storm. I find it easiest to hold a baby food jar under the flower as I clip off the stamen so they fall into the jar. You could use anything easily held in place and allow them to just drop into it as you cut, even your hand. I found I can write the name of the pollen donor on the jar with a Sharpie and it usually lasts well until washed off with either hand sweat or dish washing soap, by hand or in the dish washer. I've also used wax pencil but it smears too easily for me and doesn't always wash off cleanly in the dish washer.

I found it easy to take a plain piece of paper and dump each jar on a separate piece where I spread them out to dry. It's faster than leaving them in the jars, in my opinion, though many leave them in the jars until they appear dry. I usually cut the paper into smaller squares so more will fit on the same surface. If you put the labeled jar on the paper with the stamen, you can reuse the paper many times. You want to put the pieces of paper with the stamen on them somewhere warmer and drier where there isn't a strong breeze so they don't blow off the paper and where no one will disturb them. I know, easier said than done. Usually, in my more arid climate on dry days, they will sufficiently dry in about a day. If you're using the flower they came from as a seed parent, usually in the same weather, the stigma has begun to secrete fluid from the thread tips, making them sticky and wet, receptive for pollen to stick to them. Again, though, your mileage can easily vary and experience will teach you what works best with the varieties you're using, where you're using them. Higher humidity and lower temps will slow things down. Drier, hotter will speed them up. Many say pollen can remain viable under ideal conditions (cool, dry) for about a week, though I do my best to utilize it the day I'm spreading it. Just works better for me where I do it and with my attention span and time.

You can find a mortar and pestle in many places. I have several marble ones which work, but I like the unglazed ceramic with the wooden pestle found in a culinary store better as it isn't as porous and easier to clean. I just blow it out and as long as it isn't discolored from remaining material, I consider it clean enough. Some will probably tell you to wash it out, which you may do if you want.

When grinding the anthers and stamen in the mortar, if they gum up, appear sticky, then simply scrape them back on to the paper, spread them out to your satisfaction, clean out the mortar and move on to the next one. I'm not worried about damaging the pollen with the mortar and pestle. I've had good pollinations of obvious crosses using the grinding method.

Some people have gone as far as creating pollen shakers out of baby food jars and holes punched in the lids, even fine screen inserts set into the lids. They work and they satisfy those who have done them, so more power to them. You really can make it as involved and intricate as you wish. I've always figured, like watching self set hips, Nature takes the easiest way around things so they work. I can, too.

Yes, you can snap off a flower and use it as your brush, as long as it will supply enough pollen to do all the blooms you want to use it on, and as long as you don't want to use THAT bloom for a seed parent.

Once I'm satisfied the pollen is as available as possible, and once I feel the stigmas are sufficiently receptive, I simply gently shake the baby food jar side to side and the pollen (and some ground stamen, but that doesn't seem to mess anything up) sticks to the sides of the jar. I just swipe a finger through it and gently massage the dust into the stigmas. Watch bees, they aren't "gentle" about collecting pollen, so I'm not "gentle" about applying it. I'm careful not to damage the stigmas, but I also want to make sure I've sufficiently applied as much pollen as they will accept and use. It just takes a little practice until you develop a feel for what you can get away with and still obtain the desired results. Some people use camel hair brushes; some use Q-Tips. They all work, but your finger is always with you (hopefully!) and creates no waste. You'll probably want to pollinate all the flowers you intend to with each pollen before moving on to the next variety so you don't waste any cleaning your finger, brush, etc., unnecessarily and losing what you've worked to gather. It's just a more efficient use of it. When I emasculate the flowers I wish to use for seed, I'll keep a written record of each type and how many blooms of each I've processed. Later, I can then match the seed parent with the pollen I wish to use on each one so there is a list of what to do and I can make sure I don't waste any of each pollen. Between each type, you'll probably want to clean your finger, brush, etc. Some suggest rubbing alcohol, others water. You CAN simply wipe your finger on your clothes, but be aware that some pollens are laden with pigment and they often stain. I don't use any sprays nor systemics, so I just stick it in my mouth and it pops out as clean as necessary. I'll wipe that on my jeans any time as it won't stain and I haven't been touching anything "dirty". By this point, you're ready for your next combination of pollination parents.

Tagging...this is the easiest, cheapest I've discovered. Hit Office Max, Office Depot, Staples, which ever is your choice and grab a box of these. http://www.staples.com/White-Strung-Merchandise-Tag-3/product_721893?cmArea=sku_pd_box2 You may use any size you want, but these permit me to put as much information on them as I wish. They're certainly cheap enough and will last as long as needed. Use # 2 pencil to write on them. There is no such things as "permanent marker" out doors! They all wash off except pencil. If you have snails and slugs, I guaranty they WILL eat the side of the tag with the writing on it! Friends have suggested it's because they want a menu. ha!

If you have the seed blooms listed by quantity and type, and you have your pollens labeled, it's easy to sit down and write them all in one chart, detailing what gets put on what and how many of each. You can write out your tags in comfort, putting either just the pollen parent on them, or both, if you desire. I only put the pollen parent name on each tag, then put the number of each one needed in the appropriate jar while the stamen dry. When they are ready, I remove the tags from one jar, grind the stamen of that named variety, dump the ground pollen in the jar and stick those written tags in the jar with the strings hanging out. The cotton string will grab pollen, so I keep it out of the jars. Once they're all processed, I grab my list, put the jars in a half box, piece of plastic ware, whatever is suitable to keep them together and from tipping, and hit the garden. Sit the box of jars where convenient, grab a jar, look at your list and hit all the emasculated flowers you've set aside for each pollen, slipping a string tag around the peduncle as you go. Once you're out of tags, you should have all the flowers you want pollinated with that type of pollen finished. Lick your finger and move on to the next until finished.

If you have extra pollen, mix it or keep it separate, your choice. If there are other open flowers whose stigmas appear receptive, use them, emasculated or not. Write the pollen type on an extra tag and hang it around the stem. They don't have to be tight, just enough so they don't slip off. Some will take and swell; others won't. With practice, you'll easily develop a feel for it just as you have for what makes a good "mother". It IS easy and it IS fun! My best advice is to NOT let it intimidate you and just have FUN with it. Nothing is difficult once you make it fun.

As for putting bags over the pollinated flowers, you CAN do it, but you honestly don't HAVE to. Emasculate some flowers and sit back in the shade with your favorite beverage to watch a while. Pollinators aren't usually attracted to a flower without pollen and petals. Even after pollination, there aren't the traditional attractants so they generally leave your work alone. I've had far more instances of the bees helping themselves to the pollen in my pollen jars than messing with my pollinated flowers! All organisms in Nature take the path of least resistance, just like water and electricity. They are not above collecting all the pollen you've so conveniently gathered for them, so putting something over your pollen jars not only prevents them from using your efforts as a smorgasbord, but helps keep the wind from blowing away the "dust" you've collected and processed. Keep the pollen containers out of the direct sun and off hot surfaces, too. It's easier than you think to cook it to death with too much intensified heat. Extremely hot weather, I'm talking nineties to hundred degrees range, will significantly shorten the viable life of the pollen, so the hotter it is, the shorter your time to keep it for use. It's possible to freeze it, but that's left for another time.

You can harvest the hips when they are about three months old, whether they have begun changing colors or not. It takes roughly a hundred days on average for most of them to be sufficiently mature to work. Some will change colors, some won't. Some will be red, yellow, orange, black or even remain green. Remember, they are cousins of apples and you know how many different colors there are of those.

When harvesting the hips, I'll take a plastic bag out, or a bowl, paper bag, whatever is handy, to collect all the hips from one seed parent, keeping them separated by pollen parent. If you write both on the tag, it isn't necessary to keep them separated at this point because each one has all the necessary information on it, unless the tag slips off. By writing only one parent on the tag, I have to keep the seed parent hips separate until I clean them and write the planting tags for each cross.

You may simply write the number of the cross on each tag if you wish, then keep a list of what number refers to which cross. I guess that could be easier for some, but I am sure to lose the list, whether it's on the computer or not, and I want to know what's taking while walking through the garden. What I do is just more convenient for ME. What you do is fine for you. With this, whatever works for you is the right way to do it. Neat, huh? LOL!

After this point, comes stratification, which requires more room than this response will probably allow. Unless you're ready to plant right now, it's probably better to wait on it. I hope this helps take the mystery, intimidation and "magic" out of it, allowing anyone who reads it to see just how EASY and FUN it can be! Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: String tags at Staples

Hi Marthaye,

You can probably safely plant them now. Usually they won't germinate too early and very young rose seedlings are very frost tolerant until they form their first true rose leaves.

You'll want a friable, moisture retentive soil which doesn't compact so the emerging seedlings can easily break through. Yes, they'll often germinate and grow where they fall. Providing a decent seed germinating soil simply improves your success rate. Spread them over the surface of a pot or planting area of appropriate soil, then cover with approximately a quarter inch of soil, firming it so there is good soil to seed contact. You don't want to smash it hard, just enough to keep everything in place, then keep it watered as you would any other hard wood plant seed. Damp, not soggy is your goal.

I'd be worried about your ground squirrels or chipmunks. Rodents LOVE rose seeds as they are chock full of nutrients. Wherever you plant them, I'd cover them with hardware cloth and watch for snails and slugs if you want to see any fruit of your efforts. Pots would probably be a better bet to keep your garden critters out of them.

Depending upon your weather and the viability of the seed, you can begin seeing seedlings in as little as a week or two and as much as two years from planting. I put my seed under soil on Thanksgiving and I have one seedling so far. Last year was warmer and drier and they were sprouting like grass within a month. None of it is written in stone. You have to experiment to see what works best with what you have and where you are.

I probably use a soil too heavy for many because keeping it watered here in Southern California is more of an issue than being too wet, so my suggesting the same soil I use will likely short circuit your efforts. If you have a favorite potting soil, try it. If the sun is extreme now where you are and the pots you'll use may tend to over heat and cook the soil, then put them in partial sun. If overheating and cooking germinating plants isn't an issue, put them in a sunny position. They'll make use of all the sun they can get as long as it doesn't overheat the soil and cook them to death.

You have the experience with your elements so you're the expert here. It's better for me to suggest what they find suitable for success. Translate that into what provides it best where you are and you should have successful germination. Hard, huh? LOL! Have fun! Kim

Kim,
This is such a lot of good information..have you thought about making a tutorial on one of those how-to sites?
I appreciate the practical tips born of trial and error.
Are those string tags paper or plastic? I looked up your Little Butterflies on HMF, and checked out some of your other roses...Annie Laurie McDowell is one that I had noticed a year or two ago through somebody's post about it.
That one is my favorite. You have come up with a lot of lovely ones! I like Too Cute also.

I have a seedling which proliferates a lot but has a pretty color and great rebloom and health. Do they ever get over proliferating? I have a seedling of Fourth of July which had two blooms last spring..one looked like the parent and one had black stripes on dark red. I am looking forward to seeing if it'll do that again.

I think my greatest area of uncertainty is knowing when the pollen is ripe or the stigmas are ready, but those are good tips, and I will probably get the feeling for it if I keep it up. I hadn't heard anything about grinding the anthers..I guess because they don't always release the pollen that well. That was one thing that bothered me in my experiment...not much pollen released. Also I had collected more pollen than I could use in a timely way. Could have frozen it I guess. I would rather collect a little, pollinate a little, then do it again.

I think your Coral Hume is pretty too, and had Cardinal Hume for both parents. I noticed the Cardinal putting out hips this fall and I think I have some in the refrigerator right now. My baby seedlings from last spring are all outside in the cold. So far they are all toughing it out.
Thanks again,
Linda

Thank you Linda. I've been asked why I don't do a tutorial and the best answer is I just don't have the desire to. I'd rather be pimping pollen and studying what results. The string tags are paper and the snails and slugs LOVE them. Thanks for the kind words about my "babies"! A seedling has to really impress me for it to be released with my "blessings".

Seedlings and established roses can proliferate for a variety of reasons. I've had seedlings which proliferated every spring and never again. Some did it once and that was it. Many commercial roses do it with weather changes and high nitrogen. Tequilla Sunrise was absolutely gorgeous in my old garden, but all I had to do was walk by it with a sealed bag of fertilizer and the thing would begin throwing two rows of petals with green malignancies in the center.

Yes, ma'am, trial and error, exploration, experimentation is your best teacher as to when the stigmas are receptive. The best suggestion I can give you is to watch for when they seem more translucent appearing, wetter looking and feel stickier than normal for the variety in your climate. There are just so many which never seem any of these, yet they hold the pollen and pump out babies like a photocopier! It really is something which comes from experience.

Congratulations on your seedlings! I hope the winter remains mild enough for them to flourish. Speaking of the Cardinal, I'll bet you weren't aware that it's not only a gorgeous rose, but it makes a wonderful root stock where it's hardy enough. I budded a four foot tree rose of Baby Faurax on one of its stems many years ago. The trunk is easily an inch in diameter now and the rose, which is notorious for being chlorotic, has never suffered from lack of iron. The Cardinal does such a great job of supplying everything Baby needs. I don't worry about any potential virus from Cardinal Hume as it's a rooted piece from my original imported plant I brought in from Harkness when it was initially released. Kim

Kim,
I'll keep an eye on my proliferator for sure. I don't know whether my Cardinal has RMV, haven't seen it yet. Budding standards is not something I've tried but might want to, since i do like them. Glad I have a source for a good trunk.

Marthaye,
I don't have many years experience growing them from seed, but I have been gathering hips in late fall and putting them in damp paper towels in little plastic bags in the refrigerator for 2 or 3 months. Some sprout in the fridge, and some sprout later when planted in a flat of seed starter mix. I grow them under lights in an unheated room. I might try regular potting soil this year since it's what I have. I don't know what zone you're in but if they're sprouting already, I wouldn't think they'd need a cold treatment. I've read that seeds within their hips can take a freeze and might even germinate better after a light freeze but not too deep a freeze. That was one person's opinion. Good luck - it's fun to see what they do!
Linda

Kim,
thank you for spending so much time to explain this. Professional advice is an uncommon thing at Gardenweb, though not unknown, and I value it highly. I was planning to start cross-breeding Alba Semi-Plena with Old Garden Tea roses in the hopes of breeding a rapidly repeating Tea -Alba cross, with Alba disease resistant foliage. I know this could take more than 2 generations of breeding to gain remontancy. You have saved me possible heartbreak for I would lament if the seeds from such crossings aborted or failed to germinate. Now due to your advice here, I will begin by planting self set hips from Alba Semi Plena and several Tea roses to get experience with random seeds first.

God bless,
with many sincere thanks,
Luxrosa

Luxurosa, you might also check out www. rosehybridizersassociation.org if you haven't already. I've been reading over there. One thing I've come across..several people on that forum seem to think that at times bees do pollinate roses.
I would think that before people started hybridizing roses there must have been bee pollination to some extent or there wouldn't have been much diversity in roses in the wild.

Good luck with your seedlings...I think it's a good idea to try a number of varieties. Some germinate much more readily than others.
Linda

You're welcome, Luxrosa. You might as well stack the deck in your favor as much as you possibly can! I saw a great tee shirt yesterday, "I'm not CHEATING...I'm playing by MY rules!" Practicing germinating things BEFORE you create the "perfect rose" is much like that. For years while in school, I worked camera counters in department stores. It used to make me cringe to the floor for people who hit the counter with, "I'm leaving for a month in Europe tomorrow and I NEED a good camera!" Same danged thing! Start something you know nothing about and which requires some acquired skill and practice and isn't easily repeatable. Both are too heavily doomed to fail.

Yes, you can repeat the cross. It's been written that Kordes repeated the cross which created Iceberg MANY times and nothing approaching as good a plant as Iceberg ever resulted. How are you going to know if your dream will work if your best chance of success doesn't work because you didn't do it at least well enough for it to have a chance?

It's probably going to take you many generations to produce the type of goal you have in your mind's eye. Very often, what you'll see will be small changes at first, so keep a keen eye out for them. It will be interesting seeing how the health of the offspring vary, too. Keep in mind Ralph Moore's admonition..."Create a good plant first, it's always easy to hang a pretty flower on it later." You might also consider creating parallel breeding lines containing what you want to use, plus perhaps some of the better miniatures to help bring the size of the plants, ease of propagation and heavy, continuous repeat flowering back into the equation earlier?

First generation hybrid vigor can quickly create some real monsters! For example, if you take a look at what is behind Fairy Moss, you'll find the seminal cross of Pinocchio (3' floribunda) with William Lobb (6'-8' moss) resulted in a 20' moss shrub, from observation of the remaining original plants which grew at Sequoia until its demise. One cross with a miniature tamed the beast to a miniature.

Perhaps, if you created some Tea/mini and Alba/mini hybrids, crossing them may result in combining the traits you desire in better plants, more quickly and efficiently? Mr. Moore had discovered minis act like bridges from one section of the family to another, very often increasing the health, vigor, ease of propagation, intensifying flowering and other benefits, along the way. Stripes and moss exist in modern roses today because he was able to bring them out of the Old Garden Roses through miniatures and back into larger moderns. Every striped modern rose traces its origin back to Little Darling and Ferdinand Pichard. His various permutations of this cross, further enhanced by running them through his miniatures, mostly bred from R. Wichurana to improve health, vigor and ease of rooting, resulted in cleaning up many of Ferdinand Pichard's health and vigor issues.

You can create similar breeders easily. Select those which have a solid reputation for health and fertility and begin creating hybrids of them with your selected Teas and Albas. Select your hybrids and begin breeding your selections. Engineer in the traits you desire from the foundation so they are more homogenized from the ground up, instead of losing half of them somewhere down the line when you find the need to include other genes to tame the plant, or improve the health, or introduce repeat flowering, etc.

Because of moving from a more arid, disease free climate to more of the fog belt last year, I've recently had to rethink and re engineer my own breeder list to improve health. Very healthy, good minis are out there and they are easily obtained. It was never an issue where diseases aren't issues. It IS where they are.

Yes, Linda, it is POSSIBLE for foreign pollen to be involved in a self set cross. It just hasn't been shown to be that PROBABLE. Species, wild roses, all have tremendous variation possible within their genes. There are cases of hybridization where they overlap. Species are far more fertile generally than garden roses. Very often, it's because they are single flowers, only one row of petals. That is all that exists naturally without human beings practicing "unnatural selection". Every time you increase a row of petals, you reduce a row of stamen and anthers, reducing fertility. Nature stacks the deck in her favor by not promoting double flowers for very long. They occur, but very seldom last where the single permutation is the more desirable for perpetuation of the species. When those natural hybrids occur, it's also where hundreds, if not thousands, of blooms of the same type are present so the insect pollinator or the wind, is so saturated with the same pollen, it occurs. That would very seldom occur in the average garden where so few of the same rose is grown. If you were a commercial grower, producing hundreds to thousands of the same plant en masse, perhaps.

It was common for "breeders" to plant multiple varieties in the hole together in hopes there would be some cross pollination. But, when you read the old rose books and virtually everything raised from those methods was condemned as inferior and nearly synonymous to the originals, it's obvious very little, if any cross pollination occurred. Particularly with the Hybrid Perpetual class, they were sorted by "Types", not just because they grew like the archetype for the section, but very often because they were virtually identical, so if you grew the best, you knew the rest. Grow a bunch of self set seed from any of your garden roses and see what I mean. Most will greatly resemble what they were raised from and many will be inferior. Not all, but the vast majority. You will find variations, and the wider/wilder the cross which created the rose being used for seed was, the wider and wilder the variations will be.

If you raise seed from a Hybrid Tea which contains nearly the same ancestors on both sides of its cross, you don't have much with which to work and most are going to come out inferior versions of the original. But, if you look at something like Cardinal Hume, which has a very wide variety of types and classes on both sides of his family tree (yes, some over lap and repetition, but much other different material there to stir things up), you can see why self set seed from him has created such a wide range of results, from dwarf versions to greatly differing colors and plant sizes. It CAN be possible to find interesting things in self set seed, but your best potential comes from roses with such diverse backgrounds, just as they mostly do from deliberate crosses.

Trade organizations such as the AARS were officially originally created to prevent the importation and distribution of inferior roses, those similar to but inferior to what was already being sold here to prevent the destruction of the industry. Ellwanger and Foster-Mellier among others, attempted to perform those similar functions, to alert the reader that there was a lot of junk on the market. It has been a continuous problem from the earliest days of rose commerce, both here and abroad, and will continue to be as long as people are willing to take chances on the unknown. As long as you can chalk up the failures and money wasted to "at least I tried", you'll probably have fun. Once you hit the regret that you wasted the time, effort and money, then it's a problem. Fostering the business of providing inferior products and service by monetarily supporting it, voting with our dollars, does hurt everyone and the industry on the whole.

Kim,
That's interesting about the rows of petals decreasing the rows of stamens. Sounds like you saying that all double roses were the result of hybridizing. I thought some occured naturally. I am learning things about why it is harder for bees to pollinate roses..I saw a picture of the stamens bending way over the pistils.

I have noticed that many of my Bonica seedlings look a lot alike, and like the parent plant. I've seen a number of single pink seedlings. But I do have four or five op seedlings that after a couple of years have not convinced me they're inferior or lesser versions of their parent. My op seedling of Dublin Bay is a totally different and beautiful color, is almost thornless, very healthy, blooms alot, and I can't for the life of me say it's not a good plant so far. I have a dramatic black striped seedling of 4th of July, and a seedling of Heritage which looks like a mini. It has 1 1/2" cupped blush pink blooms, repeats often and I think it deserves a name. I think I will call it Little Miss Muffet. I have a healthy op seedling of Altissimo which hasn't bloomed yet. If I get into hybridizing I will look in to what is involved in evaluating plants for introduction.

Yes, Linda, all double roses are, or were, the result of hybridizing, whether it was due to human fingers or other methods. Single flowers are more fertile, have more sexual parts. That is the form Nature prefers as it is the most efficient. It is possible for a double flower to occur naturally, without human intervention, but they don't LAST without our meddling. They are mostly less fertile and produce fewer seed, so they are most often displaced by the single forms of whatever. It's human "un natural selection" which selects and propagates them.

You're finally noticing how stamen fold up over stigma. Now, notice how heavily petaled flowers hide the stigma and stamen from bees, etc.. How on earth would those flowers reproduce? Not necessarily the folded stamen, but the petals which prevent anything from gaining access to the sexual parts. How would anything get in there to cause reproduction? A bee isn't going to waste the energy. Caterpillars could eat into them, but they won't stop at just petals, they'll eat everything.

Then, to further muddle things up, some varieties are so tremendously variable for numerous reasons. Rosarium Uetersen varies here in SoCal based on climate. In hot, inland valleys, the color is a Peter Max, DayGlo, poster paint, fry your retina, neon coral pink. There are no sexual parts, only petals, like a Centifolia, stuffed into a dense powder puff. Grow the same plant in a cooler coastal environment and it changes to a nearly pastel coral pink, three or so rows of petals, open form, full of stamen and pollen. I couldn't fathom any breeding had been possible with that variety based upon what I traditionally observed in the heat until I observed it, and didn't recognize it, at the beach!

I'm not surprised you have some decent seedlings out of Bonica. Look at what is behind that rose. It is an excellent example of what I was trying to illustrate with Cardinal Hume. There is a wide range of things including species behind it so there are many better genes there to create good things. That's why Bonica is as popular as it is, why it's such a great landscaping plant and such a wonderful breeder.

You have to study what made the rose to determine if what you're seeing is within its make up or not. What is behind Dublin Bay? Is it possible something there resulted in the thornless character of your seedling? If not, what else is there near where your plant grows you might suspect to be involved? Dublin Bay has multiple doses of Wichurana in it and there are thornless forms of Wichurana. I grow one and use it for breeding and rootstock. It could be conceivable that selfing brought a potentially recessive characteristic to the front in your seedling. That's a danger as well as potential benefit from selfing, bringing something to the forefront which may or may not be a good thing. If it's lack of prickles, yes, I'd like that. If it's susceptibility to disease, no thanks.

The point is, without studying what created the rose you've raised the selfs from, you can't begin to have any feel whether foreign pollen may be involved or not. Intensifying the colors in a Fourth of July seedling is well within the realm of possibilities for its gene pool. Changing the colors to yellow and orange isn't. Creating a mini from a rose may or may not be normal for its genes. The old HT Peace mutated to climbing forms, various other colors and even a miniature mutation. Those genes may be hidden within that set where you can't see them and be uncovered by shuffling the deck.

Kim, yeah I finally notice it in the pic I saw but I have also noticed quite a few bees on my roses so it makes it hard to think they hardly ever pollinate them. But I am not closed minded about it. Maybe a little thick skulled about it. No, I don't have any good Bonica seedlings yet. My Bonica seedlings have been almost all the same, pale pink and small. I do like Bonica alot and don't know why some people think it's ho hum. My best seedlings are from Dublin Bay, Heritage, 4th of July, Basye's Blueberry, and maybe Altissimo..verdict out on that one. I have another one I like which looks something like Old Grey Cemetery but it proliferates..I forget the paretn. Also have an apricot New Dawn seedling but it has no vigor so far. It isn't hard to study the parent/s to see what's in them but I have to come up with the $ for hmf. Broke in the winter.

One thornless rose near my Dublin Bay is Zepherine Drouhin. Color of my seedling is more like that rose too but has more blue tones. Less pink, more rose.
It is pretty neat to see where an attribute might come from and it is neat also to have a surprise. My Heritage " mini" maybe just lacks vigor and could be considered an inferior Heritage without the big blooms. However, it blooms a lot. It's a short little rounded bushy plant and I like it as it is, so to me it's not a bad Heritage but a good Little Miss Muffet . Reminds me of Dresden Doll. My DD has no vigor.

Linda, you do understand why people think Bonica "ho-hum". Familiarity breeds contempt. Much like Iceberg here. Both are GREAT roses, but they're so "over used", you see them in gas stations, school parking lots, shopping centers so they can't be "any good". But, like Toyotas and Hondas, you see them everywhere because they WORK.

Little Miss Muffet sounds interesting....

Kim,
Thanx for explaining why many varieties produce junk ops, while some varieties produce worthwhile ops. Thats a useful idea.

My pleasure, Dave. I'm glad you found it useful. Kim