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Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Posted by echinaceamaniac 7 (My Page) on
Mon, Jun 30, 08 at 15:35

I have a David Austin rose called Evelyn which is a grafted rose. I bought it about 5 years ago. I want to try to air layer it and have an own-root version of it.

How long does air-layering take with these type of roses? I have just had success with a miniature rose and it took 3 weeks to air layer. Will this "Evelyn" rose make a good own-root rose? I've heard they sell own-root versions of this, but just want to be sure.

Thanks in advance!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Evelyn was released in 1991, and I would not recommend violating the copyright, especially out of respect for the tremendous amount of work required to bring to us these wonderful creations of hybridization by the great master David Austin. Instead find the rose you want in the thread on OGR roses, the list by user named: decobug, try something like Heritage, Abraham Darby, Tamora, Charles Austin, or some other perfectly good plant with an expired patent. Sativa.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

I've already bought this plant. I'm not selling this plant. It's just to keep my plant I purchased going. I see nothing wrong with doing this for my own benefit since I'm not selling it.

I'll take pictures if it works and post them here!


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Thanks for the info. I appreciate it so much.

I think I'll try my new air layering pots I ordered. I think I'll make 4-5 Evelyns now.

I do appreciate the info though!


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

All the best of luck to you.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Yes I have grown one from a cutting which is now 3 and a half years old, it was covered in beautiful blooms during our growing season.
Here in Australia I believe we are allowed to propagate for ourselves as long as we don't sell them. If I buy a modern rose these days its with the thought that I am going to practise propagating with it, then when it's patent runs out I know exactly how well it strikes and whether its a good rose for me to grow and sell .
Does anyone know what TM, or Trademark, means ? I have seen it written after a rose, Whinchester Cathedral, that is nearly running out of the 20 year patent.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Trademark description from the US Patent and Trademark Office web site. When a rose is trademarked, that name is not supposed to be used as the name of any other rose until the trademark expires. Trademark is different than patent.

Here is a link that might be useful: US Patent and Trademark Office FAQ Page


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From above link

For applications filed on or after June 8, 1995, utility and plant patents are granted for a term which begins with the date of the grant and usually ends 20 years from the date you first applied for the patent subject to the payment of appropriate maintenance fees.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Thankyou Diane_nj for that link. So that means when the rose runs out of Patent, you can sell the rose with its name. But if you breed a new rose you are not allowed to use the name 'Winchester Cathedral' for your new rose because its already in use.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

What it means is that the patent will run out in 20 yrs., but the TradeMark never runs out, so you can never sell it under the
TradeMark, you have to make your own name, you can propagate it after 20 years, but under a name you have chosen. Sativa.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Well I didn't know that, thankyou for telling me.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

I got a bit confused here and thought you meant I couldn't use the name Winchester Cathedral, once the Patent or PBR had run out, as the name's rose when I sell own root roses of it.
Is the Trade Mark you are talking about the 'David Austin English Rose' or are you talking about the name of each individual rose ?


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

I should have re read it again - I meant 'rose's name', not name's rose.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Winchester Cathedral is a trademark. After 20 years, you can clone the Winchester Cathedral and sell it, but you have to make up your own name for it, such as "Famous English White Church Rose".
A trade mark does not run out. Otherwise, after 20 years, you could just start a bunch of Rugosa seedlings, and sell them as "Winchester Cathedral", or even sell suckered rootstock as "Winchester Cathedral".

A patent runs out after 20 years, so you can clone the Winchester Cathedral, but you need to sell it with your own name. You can even take out a TradeMark protection for your name, but then it has to be one that has not already been taken.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Thanks Cannabisgrower for explanning that to me.
I really can not understand this though in that it will cause so many roses to go down in history with the wrong name. In a hundred years there will be a group of woman writing a book about whether such and such rose is really the long lost David Austin rose that was lost to gardeners because they were not allowed to propagate it and they eventually deleted it because they had newer varieties or they eventually stopped breeding roses and selling them.
And this Trade Mark 'thing', if they stop paying a fee regularly for having it, can we then take back the name for our own root rose, whether it be in 10, 15, 20 or 100 years time. It seems that I am more prouder that all progeny of Winchester Cathedral should keep its rightful name than the actual breeders. Its not just because I want to sell it, I won't make much out of my own root plants, it just seems ridiculous to have to make up another name for it when it has a name aleady and when I am not the breeder of it.
There won't be any future lovely rose books of historical and classic roses, that have stood the test of time, giving the breeder or history of the breeder because it will be so much harder to trace then it ever was in the past. When the original Whinchester Cathedral bushse die out, that will be the end of it, and you go buy something more modern.
Gardeners will have to have a secret organisation where they can actually keep the roses they love alive in name, for the benifit of future generations. After 20 years haven't the breeders made enough money to yet the old roses go free ?
Has there been heated debate about this in your country ? How do the breeders defend themselves in what they are doing ? I hope Trade Mark means a different meaning to some degree in Australia.
It makes me want to start trying to breed my own roses, I will buy the new rose creations, benefiting from all their years of rose breeding. Least then I can use the parent's names in the breeding. Therefore they have caused me to jump into action into experimenting in breeding my own roses.
I wonder how long before they put a patent on the hips or breed beautiful roses that people can't resist but that don't bare hips. My Foutune's Double Yellow doesn't have hips, not that I have yet seen.
I don't mean to be disrespectful to the David Austin firm, I love his roses and thats why I want to propagate them as I know they strike roots easy. I would be very keen to pay the money needed so I can sell patented roses, even when they got to be under the Trade Mark and the patent run out, just so they could have their registered name. They never gave us small propagaters/gardeners this choice, did they ? They won't give the small rose growers a licence to propagate the ir roses, as I have enquired about that, I was told so they have to keep a standard up etc.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Thanks Cannibisgrower,
I am going to go the other way now. So when the patented has run out and I have checked that this is what David Austin wants, then I will say thankyou very much and I will sell the Trade Mark roses with their different names. Least I won't be doing anything illegal.
So if I can't use the name Whinchester Cathedral because of the Trade Mark, does this also mean the breeding or parents of that rose are under Trade Mark too ? Could I give the rose a new name but then list the parents of that rose instead so the identity of the rose is not totally lost ?
You are so right about this World being very wrong how humans run it. I have to hope my daughters and future grandchidren, great grandchildren, and their decendants still have the blessings of life.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

In spite of what has been suggested here, you cannot legally rename someone else's Trademarked roses; that is still a violation of the creator's intellectual property. Not to mention that its unethical to rename registered varieties and redistribute them under false names, adding to the confusion of identifying the variety in the future. You can distribute Trademarked (Patent expired) roses under their breeder code names, the ones that start with the three letter prefix that indicates authorship of the breeder. In this case its the letters AUS, indicating its an Austin rose.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Hey trospero, then why is it that I can buy generic drugs, which are the exact same drug as the Name Brand one, but under a completely different name chosen by the generic drug maker?


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Well thankyou Cannabisgrower and Trospero for telling me about Trade Marks. I really appreciate it.
Well I can handle that, I will use the code name to sell the roses instead.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Dear echinacea, Generally speaking, reputable nurseries, including small backyard businesses won't propagate, much less offer for sale, a rose within 20 years of it's introduction, whether or not it has been patented--small breeders can't always afford to patent--without permission from the breeder, nor will responsible buyers buy illegally propagated plants.

HOWEVER, a couple of related points come to mind.
1. There is a great deal of hypocrisy underlying rants like the ones on this thread. Would cannabis wax quite so indignant at a flea-market vendor of home propagated roses, or would cannabis conclude that the vendor was "just reaching for his or her American dream", and decide to give the whole thing a pass?

2. What cannabis quite pointedly did NOT say is that some nurseries and companies have a policy of withdrawing their patented plants from the market well in advance of the 20 year patent expiration date. J & P has been notorious in this regard, and you may have read of what have been described as excellent roses bred by Jack Christiansen which were no longer propagated by the company which bought the company for which Christiansen worked. It is not always the breeder who owns the patent on a plant.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Cannabis, As to David Austen roses never becooming scarce, au contraire; some worthy varieties already have become nearly unobtainable. Charmain, a particular favorite of mine, is offered, I believe, only by Vintage, and not every season. I wish I had propagated it, even though it was then under patent, when I had it. A red variety called Financial Times Centenary has entirely disappeared from nurseries in the USA, and others like The Nun, English Garden, Dove, and Swan, to name a few which are particularly suited to my climate have become virtually unobtainable. You do realize that not every gardener can afford shipping costs, much the costs of importing? I have fond memories of a very pretty ruffled variety called English Elegance, now nowhere to be found, which I shall probably never see again.

I think that Congress needs to revisit patent laws, as they relate to plants, as well as import restrictions. Twenty years is fine, as long as the original breeder actually does offer the patented plant for sale.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Cannabis, Heard it before, ad nauseum. Us nursery owners/ plant breeders can't possibly offer every cultivar which some crackpot wants to grow.
Don't you idiots know there at least 10,000 rose cultivars growing somewhere in God's earth?

Your life would be soooo much easier if we gardeners would all just line up and buy McIceberg and McKnockout, and whatever J & P, Weeeks, and Bear Creek have decided to push this year.

This issue has been discussed over and over, with, usually, the conclusion that we, as responsible gardeners, will of curse respect patents, so long as the plants we covet are in fact offered for sale in our own countries.

But, we like what we like. Humans are like that. If the breeder/patent owner wants to play dog in the manger with a variety we like, then gardeners will propagate. Go ahead and sue. Please do. We need a test case on this.

I am a little leery of ordering from Canada because of the climate difference. I fear that plants accustomed to cool and cold temps might not take to baking heat.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

I had a email from a David Austin representative in England in reply to a email I had sent them.
It said that they grant licences to established breeders who wish to grow and sell their roses which are protected by plant breeder's rights or trade marks ( the TM on just a few of their roses ). As part of their licences, they are discouraged from growing the older unprotected varieties.
They do not licence growers to grow the older varieties which are no longer protected. They said David Austin Roses makes a huge investment in their breeding program and the new varieties that result from it.
Therefore they do not encourage anyone to pick up the older varieties as we feel that they are superseded by the newer varieties in terms of performance and disease resistance.

Nastarana, all the old David Austins you mentioned are still listed in a Australian catalogue that sells a wide range of Heritage Roses. I will make sure I get these before its too hard to get them here too. Thanks for warning me. I wish I could send them over to you.
I did have nearly all of them, only young ones, but we had some dry seasons and I moved them between this time to a new garden and lost quite alot of them as my new garden was too big. I have brought my garden in a bit since then and changed it, we then had a very, very good latter Spring, Summer and Autumn. So I should be right now I hope to add some more new roses each year.
I will be propagating and selling the older unprotected David Austins with the code name.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Don't worry about ordering from Pickering nurseries in Canada, regarding whether the rose is used to cold weather and won't grow where it's warm. Pickering Nurseries are located in the banana belt of Canada, and like I said, they ship to all over North America and the world, with absolutely no problems.

I don't think any of the DA's qualify for McIceberg or McKnockout - each DA creation is magnificent. Naturally they are going to encourage the growers to grow the new varieties, because there is profit in it for them there, and who doesn't like to turn a profit - isn't profits what America is about - you talk about the "American Dream" - there can only be an "American Dream" is there is profit, without profits, it's just a pipe dream.

I'm afraid you people are all spoiled rotten if you're not satisfied with what you can easily obtain. My DA's are drop dead georgeous, I love them, and I don't make myself miserable by pining about what I can't have, and even what I don't know about. I just check my local garden centre, to see what's there, and that sometimes just amounts to 4 or 5 DA's, and then if that's not satisfactory I peruse Pickering Nurseries and place my order - life couldn't be better people, enjoy it while you can, and I sure as H*ll ain't going to launch any lawsuit against you, my life is too short to be engaged in such exercises of futility. For my money, even just the single mass planting of Fair Bianca, with Pink Bianca sports, gives me sufficient pleasure. Imagine that I also have about 12 other varieties of DA's, and some super nice HT's and Explorer roses to boot. You people need to get a life. Sativa.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

It is no more my job to keep vendors of any product in business than it is the responsibility of an employer to retain an unsatisfactory employee.

Offer what I want, and I will buy. I believe that is called discipline of the marketplace, no?

I recommend the forum connected with Asia Times Online as a good place to discuss politics and current events with inelligent and well informed people from all over the world.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

One thing we have in common, we each love the David Austin roses.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

WOW! Why haven't I been keeping up on this???

Isn't it funny how one person's idea of the best rose could be another's worst? I hate DA roses, but that is just me. On the other hand, I love HT's and will go wherever to find a cutting of one I want to grow. I have had this talk before with others about patented roses that have been taken off the market, and I could not agree more with Nastarana! When the breeder of a rose himself writes me asking for his rose because he can not get it any other way, you know something is wrong. This was the case last summer when Jack Christensen wrote me wondering about how he could get Lucille Ball. As much as possible I respect patents, but when a company is as underhanded as Bear Creek, then I draw the line. Yes, I sent Jack a patented rose illegally, and damn happy i did! Of course since then the new owners have given me permission to do this with a few of their roses, but it still felt good to get Jack a rose he had been trying to acquire for years, and HE WAS THE BREEDER! Tell me that's not ironic.


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RE RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

By the way, Evelyn will be off patent October 1, 2009. You could take cuttings now, but not sell them until then and you would be okay. Sell it under the name "AUSsaucer".


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RE RE RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

cannabis - I do not want to start a war of words or anything, but what the heck is a canadian doing preaching here about U.S. politics? Maybe you should focus your political energy on why so many Quebec Nationalists fought the Paul McCartney concert tonight because of a battle fought and lost 348 years ago. Regardless of what is wrong with our country, and I really would agree with you on most of your points, it is nauseatng to hear them from someone who is so anti-american.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

I'm not anti-American, I'm anti the world being dragged into a firepit cesspool of destruction of the ideals of our fore fathers by a bunch of hateful self-centred and greedy oligarchs that run your plutochracy. There is no war of words, here, just the squealing of pain as the life-blood of the world is sucked out by a monstrous war machine to my south, all in the name of Christianity, and the nation that calls itself Christian.

You're the people that started this debate anyway. Maybe you Americans didn't realize when you use over one half of the world's resources so you can live in your McMansions, 'burbs, get there in your SUV's, and wage wars of aggression to secure your supply of oil, that YOU are stealing from not only the rest of the world, but you are also stealing from your own children. It doesn't occur to you that a canadian is "preaching about US politics", because we also share the world, it's not just an American world, but Christianity says that I am my brother's keeper, and what you do for the least of these you do for me, which Pastor Hagee has conveniently forgotten, in his support for your "war hero" and war mongering candidate McCain. That the fiscal policies of Bush is a policy of "beggar thy neighbour", which means steal from your neighbour. The world and all of the thinking people in it are as mad as hell about it, and my kids regularly travel to your fine country to take part in peace rallies, God Bless them. Sativa.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Since i do not want to get kicked off this forum, I'll just end with "thanks for proving my point", and bid you adieu!


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Hello Mgleason56, it was very interesting reading your addition to this thread. Amazing that breeder lost his own rose, great you were able to pass it back to him.
I love Hybred Teas too, and all roses I think. How do you propagate your roses, T-budding or own root ? I have grown some
Hybred Tea and Floribundas from cuttings.
I will be keeping all the rose catalogues over the years now, because I have noticed the other day that roses that are Trade Marked no longer have the code names written beside their name.
Although on HelpMeFind the roses have the code names for each rose and you could find it among the Patents or Trade Marks Goverment section. But it will be alot easier to look back through old catalogues to find the code names.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

I propagate via own root, but will try budding next year I think. Got a DVD on it and it'll give me something to study over the long winter months.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Thanks for your answer mgleson56.
I did a rose trip earlier in the year and visited a few people from a Australian rose propagating forum in person to learn about T budding. I will be trying what I learnt this Spring, so I can learn to do weepers and propagate the roses that are hard to do from cuttings, or because I can only get a very small piece of budwood of a certain rose.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Chip budding is much easier and can be done at any time through the growing season, unlike T budding which can be done only in a fairly brief window while the bark is slipping. See link:

Here is a link that might be useful: Chip Budding


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

this cannabisgrower needs to keep herself in canada.first time on this forum,a little more than the average reader would like to hear.she sounds like a s--- stirrer.she's only been a member of GW since june 5 '08...sorry,people like her rub me.i'd love to meet her face to face.my two cents,patricia louisiana


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Best just ignore the ignorant. The user name says it all...

This was just another forum for her to spew her anti american views, and hopefully she has been kicked off of here.

Notice that when she was proven wrong on a point she immediately went with the anti USA rant. Typical.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

First of all I cannot believe "Cannabisgrower" is actually lecturing on copyrights and following the law etc. Just take a look at his username. I don't think I need to tell you what cannabis means, and if you don't know, then google it. It is definitely against the law unless you live in Canada.


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Cannabisgrower is anti American!!!

Also Cannabisgrower go spew your anti-American propaganda somewhere else where you will be admired (gag). We want to talk roses not politics and you are the MORON for coming on here trying to lecture us about OUR laws and OUR president! Sure not everyone likes the president, but we love America dammit and we DON'T like IDIOTS like YOU coming on here trying to talk to us like we are morons so get a life!!!!!!!


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

While its true that spouting off about politics is not what this forum is about, its no less inappropriate to refer to other members as "morons" and "idiots". Please lets not descend into crude and vulgar name calling.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Somebody else started it. They said that they were worried about Winchester Cathedral not being available in 100 years time, and that congress should have a debate about patent laws. Since they opened the discussion about the future of the world and what congress should debate, I thought I should refocus people on the more immediate problem about the future of the world, and also that the suggestion to have congress debate the rose patent laws was a silly waste of congress time. (shrugs shoulders, who me?) Sativa.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

A little late to this discussion. However, I would like to say that cannabisgrower is NOT speaking for all Canadians. Cannabisgrower is NOT typical of the Canadian members of this forum. I think that any discussion of nationality has no place on this forum.
Just to clear up a point Olivia23, cannabis growing is also against the law in Canada.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

I do think congress, that is, the appropriate subcommittee, ought to revisit, not "have a debate about" patent laws. Silly me, I thought that was a fairly innocous sentiment, and I had no idea it would set off a tirade from Ms. Cannabis. I would venture to suggest that Congress is most usefull, and at its best, when members work on obscure but needed legislation, and avoid the media-promoted hot button issues.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

www.ars.org/About_Roses/propagating-airlayer.html

I have been wanting to try this too for a rose my neighbor has, but she doesn't know the name of.

Let us know if it works.


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RE: Air Layering Evelyn Rose

Wow, I'm just trying to learn something about air layering and this is the 3rd thread I've found where cannabisgrower is being a dick!


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