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Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Posted by object16 Sault Ste. Marie 4b (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 23, 07 at 20:10

Hi all, I have stuck about 200 cuttings, Lillian Austin, Benjamin Britten, and Fair Bianca, all David Austin roses. The cuttings were all taken just before severe cold and snowfall has set in. Some were stuck 25 days ago, some 20 days ago, and some 7 days ago. Cuttings were stored in plastic bags in the fridge until I had a chance to stick them.
I have studied George Mander's method and put it to use.
However, I did not do any wounding, and I cut the stems straight across right below a bud, and I left just the
next leaf with bud on, and cut below the next bud for the next cutting and so on. I think I have had phenomenal success.
I used promix mixed with sand, drizzle some rooting gel into the hole, put some no-damp onto the wet medium, cover it with humididome with vent cracked open slightly, and put them under fluorescent set on 18/6 cycle times. I monitor the temp, and it is between 20 - 23C. I chopped down the whole bush and submitted the whole thing for cuttings, and I think both the old and the new wood has rooted equally well. I believe the low sun angle with mainly red light coming in has turned on the genes for rooting. I wonder if you could have a look at my flickr collection and comment. Paul Mozarowski.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pictures of Benjamin Britten and Fair Bianca cuttings.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Interesting pix Paul. I did not see any photo's of roots, did I miss them?

By the way you wrote the temp, I am assuming you are on the Canadian side of the St. Mary's?


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Yes, Canadian side. I didn't want to uproot a cutting for display, but one picture shows callus forming above the soil line where I had broken a prickle off. I'm sure there's lots more like it under the soil. I did gently excavate one, and it had a nice root forming. Thanks for the comment. Paul.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Hi Paul. Could you kindly explain hoe you mix 'no damp' into the wet medium? I use coir and some cuttings are turning brown from the bottom up. Thank you.

Sengyan


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

What color are the blooms for each kind?


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

  • Posted by object16 4b sault ste. marie (My Page) on
    Sat, Dec 1, 07 at 19:51

Lillian Austin, she's a lovely pink with yellow stamens, nicely fragrant. Fair Bianca is white, and has a Pink Bianca sport, both have a lovely myrrh fragrance and are very double.
Benjamin Britten is red, and is also fragrant. All are supposed to be hardier than most, and especially I know FB does really well in 4b on her own roots. Grafted, she will eventually die. Hopefully, they will grow and bloom.
Paul Mozarowski.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Hi Sen, some of my cuttings are also turning brown/black from
the bottom end. It looks like my over all success rate might be only about 50%, but I think it depends on the strain. My Fair Bianca is doing better, perhaps 70% success rate. I use a syringe (your pharmacist can supply you with a 10 cc syringe, and see if he/she'll give you a needle as well, because it's easier to use that way). I make a kind of "guesstimate" about the volume of water in the medium. In my case I use 4" peat pots, and so I load up a syringe with 10 ml. of no-damp, when I'm sticking the cuttings, and squirt some no-damp right onto the wet medium. I use 10ml. for the 15 peat pots in the standard tray. Because this is a solution, very soon it will diffuse evenly into the medium. The other way of doing it is to let the peat pots soak in a premixed solution of the no-damp, but then you always end up with left over solution that way, and since I don't like to waste things, I use the syringe method. I think the concentration is about right, because some mushrooms are popping up, but generally the pots a free of any molds, except for just a very few. I also use the same syringe to drop rooting gel into the holes. Maybe next time I'll try rooting powder to see if that improves my success rate. At least I know if I'm getting 50%, then I'm doing something right, and with time I'll eventually get to George Mander's magical figures. In order to make up for having my cuttings die off like that, I was sticking 2 per peat pot. I find that actually the older wood is doing quite well at rooting, many of the bigger and heavier stems show plenty of callus, and the buds are swelling, I'm talking about the Benjamin Britten stuck about 18 days ago. It has big prickles, and when I was tearing off the prickles, I think this had the effect of "wounding" the stem.
See my pics of mushrooms on the medium. Paul Mozarowski.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mushrooms on media, but no molds, medium treated with no-damp.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Hi Paul. Out of the 17 cuttings I stuck only 4 are left. They all turned brown at the bottom. Of the 4, maybe 2 will root : 1 Queen of the Lakes and 1 Rouge Royal. The no damp that you squirt into the medium, is it already mixed?

Sengyan


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Hi Sengyan, I hate it when they turn brown. I use the undiluted no damp. It dilutes itself out when it diffuses into the medium. I gently pulled out one of the big Benjamin Britten cuttings with no leaves, and no swollen bud, and there was a mass of roots forming. I carefully put it back in and soaked it. Another one, I gently lifted out, and the underneath part had gone brown and there were little worms eating away at it. All in all not too bad.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Hey there...I noticed that you're rooting Ben Britten...isn't that a rather newer rose (probably still under patent)? I am not the rose police, but, DA might be upset if people are propagating his patented roses...unless, of course, you have the rights to do so... just thought I'd put that out there. I think the older roses, that the patent has expired, are probably fine.


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late cuttings taken before snowfall

Hi, I believe you're right, I didn't notice that, thanks for pointing that out. Paul Mozarowski.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Hi thanks again for pointing that out, I think from now on I'm going to concentrate on Fair Bianca, Pink Bianca, and Lillian Austin. The Pink Bianca is my own sport, so I "own" it, the Fair Bianca is an old strain, and the Lillian Austin is an absolutely georgeous rose. Paul Mozarowski.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

About the patent, i think that would only apply if you were trying to earn a profit from these roses. So if you grow them for your pleasure they would be fine.

I notice you have many pictures of mushrooms, maybe youre showing a hidden urge to just grow mushrooms. =D i also love when these little guys pop up, and the sound they make when i pick them.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

  • Posted by hoovb z9 Southern CA (My Page) on
    Tue, Dec 18, 07 at 18:56

It looks like you have a great set-up there! Congrats to you on your results. Many of the oldest Austins root very easily. I haven't tried the newer ones. Heritage roots very easily. I believe that one is out of patent. No Damp, is that a product?


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No damp product

Hi, no damp is a liquid concentrate product that you dilute and use to water your seedling/cutting medium, and contains
oxine benzoate. It is an
antifungal chemical, and costs about 4$ for for 60ml. It is
made in Canada. Thanks, Paul Mozarowski.


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Just repotted them, 72 rooted, out of 170 original.

Not bad, although I only got about 40% rooted, that equals 72 bushes, which just happens to be the maximum capacity of my indoor garden. It's 4x6', 18 6x6" containers per under the bed storage tray, just fits perfect. Also, a conifer germinated from the Pro-Mix, so I'm growing that out as well. Soon it'll be time to make a new garden, and take cuttings from cuttings. More fun. :) Paul Mozarowski.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Hi Paul. Congrats on your 40% success. Mine have all gone to cuttings heaven ( or is it hell?). All turned brown from bottoms up. I had expectations of 2 successes. Have no idea why the last 2 died. Have to wait till next June to try again.

Sengyan


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Wish people would leave their patent comments at the door. This is the propagation forum. If you do not want plants with roots stay outside. Not about the plant ID here. Just your success to help others.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Obj16,
1. I notice the profusion of fungus (mushroom) growths on the rooting media. I am surprised, since you say it's Promix. I use Sunshine #4, and have never seen fungal growth, even with high humidity and bottom heat. Could this be a factor in some of your losses?
2. You have gone "big time" with you lighting set up! Wow! What is the height of those lights from the cuttings? My cuttings are usually set about 6-8 inches below the lights, with an intervening progator dome - this is just about the minimum that minimises the chances of the cuttings desicating from the heat of the lamps. I use a 14/10 on/off cycle.
3. Looks like you have a "massive bank" of 10 double tubed shop lights. If you use 40 watt tubes, that's a total of 800 watts running load. The north american indoor electrical circuit is usually 15 amps for 110 volt supply and the maximum recommended load per circuit is 1500 watts. I try and keep it below 1200 watts for safety reasons. Perhaps you should check and see what else is drawing from that particular circuit to make sure that your rig is safe.
4. Finally, don't be taken in by those early eye buds fattening up and shooting, especially on those plumb late season cuttings. Those are more often than not, drawing on the nutrient reserves in the cuttings, ahead of any root formation. Your only measure of success if the laying down of roots.


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reply to cactus joe

1 My losses seem purely random, it's pretty old pro-mix I'm using, the fungus is only at a very low level - there is no mold, and I'm using No-Damp fungicide mixed with the water.
2. I was keeping my cuttings under my old T12 setup. You're quite right, it's important to keep cuttings well away from the lights, they can only use LOW levels of light while rooting is being initiated. I kept them on an 18/6 cycle.
I'm thinking of replacing my T12 garden with T10's - Ushio 5000K lamps put out 3500lumens and last 30,000 hours, cost about 5$ apiece though.
3. My house is great! It's a 1400 sq.ft. bungalow, but I have a 200 amp service so I can use individual circuits for all of my growing :) I have one room actually supplied by 4 breakers! Heating is with gas, and hot water tank is gas.
The hot water tank vents directly into one of the gro-op rooms for added C02.
The new garden is T8, so it only draws about 650 watts when normally driven, but about 1000 watts overdriven. I'm only going to use overdrive when the plants reach about 16" tall.
4. Right again about some of those early eye buds, some of them just died right out. Other, where the cane actually rooted, just kept on growing though. That's a big reason for making sure the temp's are not too high -- too high a temp, and the top grows, but no roots. If the temp is just right both the top grows slowly and the roots grow quickly.
Paul Mozarowski


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

I would love a cutting of Lillian Austin, & Fair Bianca if you have any left.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Abbyb454, I am planning to take cuttings from my cuttings in about 4 weeks. Email me at ptmozarowski@hotmail.com with a link or instructions for how to mail cuttings, and I'll try.
I live in Canada, but I periodically go over the border, and
I'd be able to mail them from Sault Ste. Marie Michigan.
I can send several FB. The Lillian Austin is really difficult to root, and I only have 2 tiny plants, I will not have any LA to spare for quite a while. Paul Mozarowski.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

hi!

May I please have a few cuttings of Fair Bianca as well??

I m in Ontario..

Thanks

S


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Hi, please pm me with the instructions. ptmozarowski@hotmail.com


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Hi Paul. It's been some time since your last picture post. Could you please post latest growth pictures of you cuttings.
Thanks.

Sengyan


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new pics

Hi, my son took the first pics with his Leica digilux. Since then he moved away so I don't have a digital camera right now.
I'll try to remedy the situation and get myself a digital cam.
So far I've got 72 nicely rooted cuttings that have been attacked by mites, aphids, I've sprayed them, which has injured the leaves, and right now I'm nursing them back into vigor. I'll try to get my hands on a camera shortly. Thanks for the interest. Paul Mozarowski.


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more aphid trouble

Can't seem to get rid of the d*mn b*gger aphids!!! Have placed order for gallon of pyrethrin from ebay. Also, my avid just showed up, will try spraying with that as well, on rotating basis, soap, avid, and pyrethrin. The Neem oil seems to cause the new growth to turn brown and shrivel up. My babies are starting to get weak, some have died. :( .
Paul Mozarowski.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Paul, can you give us an update on your cuttings? I'm getting some minis next month, and may try my luck. Any do's and don't would be appreciated. Hope you have some that flower and you can share pics with us.

Joan


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Hi, thanks for reading my message Joan!!! I posted a new thread, and put new photos in my flickr gallery. I've moved 60 rooted cuttings outside, to grow on in 1 litre pots. I think the odd night time freeze will finish off those d*mn aphids. I've had plenty of blooms indoors, but the plants were weakened by aphids, and so my plans to take cuttings from cuttings did not materialize. IFF I had not aphids and IFF I had no spider mites, then I would have had a few more survivors, AND I would have had much stronger plants. Keeping plants up close to fluorescent lights keeps the temperature nice and warm, which is GREAT for growth, but also GREAT for aphid proliferation!!!
Do's and don'ts:
Do mix 50:50 sand with the promix, at least in the upper half of your peat pot (3 or 4 inch peat pots). Roots will form nicely, and the stems will not rot (turn black). It is good if the cutting is surrounded by the sand promix mixture. I use a nail to poke a hole in the medium, and use a syringe to drizzle in a measure of rooting get into the planting hole.

Do stick 2 cuttings per pot, because if one dies, you're still fine. If two make it, use a knife and fork to divide.

Do use a bit of no-damp or some kind of fungicide in the medium.

Do not use too strong of a fluorescent light initially and do not keep the lights too close to the trays, until roots have formed and the cuttings can actually use that amount of light.

Do keep a humididome on, and gradually crack open the vent as the cuttings develop roots, which will happen within 4 weeks.

Do use semi ripe wood, almost all of this year's growth can be submitted for cuttings, as long as the wood is mature enough that prickles will snap off if bent : you can take cuttings from wood that has developed flower buds, you do not have to wait for the flower to open and die, unless you wish to see the bloom.

Do use short cuttings, one basal bud, and one apical leaf, so you will have TONS of rooted cuttings, and you will stretch your stock.

Do snap off the prickles below the ground level - callus forms wherever the prickles have broken off, and you will have tons of roots.

Controversial: I did NOT do any wounding, just snapped off the prickles as above.

DO: Jump on any first sign of aphids, and keep spraying every few days with insecticidal soap.

DO NOT: mix alcohol with Neem oil: You will kill your cuttings: I killed off plenty :(

Do keep your rooted cuttings under 24/7 continuous light for the duration, they will grow fantastically, have good strong roots and thick stems with nice leaves.

DO NOT believe anyone who tells you roots only grow during the night time. During the initial four weeks, I used a timer with lights on 18 hours and off for 6 hours, because that may be good for endogenous rooting hormone production,
and the cycling of temperatures is good, but after 4 weeks, my cuttings then had NO NIGHT exposure, and grew abundant roots and good strong stems and leaves and flowers.

Also DO read George Mander's advice, that is where I learned how to take cuttings, but I do a few things different: No wounds, but besides that just about everything else similar:
Do keep the temperature between 70-75 degrees F, although up to 80 is acceptable, and I keep my lights on 24/7 after the initial 4 week rooting period.

Best of luck, minis are really easy to root, as is the English rose Fair Bianca, which is what I mainly like, since it is hardy, reliable, fragrant, and the stems are flexible so that the bush can be encourages to spread by Layering, and one plant will eventually give you a nice big patch :)

Paul Mozarowski

Here is a link that might be useful: Pictures of my 5 month old rooted cuttings, taken in November, and grown indoors, now placed outdoors to grow on in 1 litre pots.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

i guess when i was asking how to propogate a rose i should of been looking here, george usually answers all the time, but ya know. :'(( i'm glad i saw your post!! :')) i've been putting my clippings in rooting horomone, then toilette paper (out of paper towels) then put in a plastic baggie, then hung up with a clothes pin in the middle so some air can get in, so far my other plants have taken off, so i thought well, i'll try my roses this way, i'm soooo praying this will work with them too!! i will also try your way but with mine. i'll have to figure how to mix the two. so far mine has been working for me. LOL :'))


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toilet paper method

may work with some very easy to root cuttings, but the rose does require a bit more than just that, with attention to details, and should be rooted in some sort of solid medium. I have not heard of the toilet paper method working, but it is possible, with a very easy to root strain - apparently some roses will even root in the vase. It is very worthwhile to use some sort of medium, even if you go for Cheryl Netter's baggie method, which is quite a lot easier than what I have been going through: you will be rewarded for your work :)


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

i'm hoping to get some beautiful cuttings, its a night owl climber, i believe. i know its purple, and a climber and owl. LOL i bought if for my husband for fathers day. and i think it has little fragrance. he's so happy that its really growing like crazy now!! LOL i will also try some with the medium too :')) thank you so much, the toilette paper was cuz i ran out of paper towels and the ivys were rooting in that, LOL so i thought, hmmm why the heck not?? LOL :')) it will be easier to see the roots with a medium, thats for sure!! :'))


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night owl climber

Wow, lucky you that you have a climate for that gorgeous new rose. it looks like it has some of the charming properties of a rugosa, but without the disadvantages. nice blooms. In my climate I have to be really picky. I'm indebted to David Austin who was skilled patient and persistent enough to have developed the Fair Bianca, which does nicely up here in
Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

I have learned alot being new to this rose forum,and have 2 propagated roses,one bloomed and the other will bloom in 2-3 days,I wanna thank everyone for the info,and paul or object16
for all the info and do's and dont's....

I just wanna let everyone know iam looking for a rose called blue moon and i have found one on like the other side of the world that is blue (i live in Louisiana)and most "blue moon"
roses i see on websites are purple.....
email me if anyone has one or knows how to get one
thatsaconcreteidea@yahoo.com


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

OKAY! I am a new gardener and i am getting some cuttings of Yellow lady banks rose and Climbing Cecile brunner and I dont have enough money to afford a bunch of flourecent lights or a misting system or anything complex. I just need to know the simplest way to start cuttings, i need it to be simple because the more complex the easier it is for me to mess up. like should i remove thorns or not? or should i give my cuttings a southern indoor exposure from a window? (when the light is direct but indoors)

thanks, its just im verrry confused.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

I think object16 got banned after he got into a flamewar about the optimum temperature for photosynthesis, but he has mentored me in his methods, and I believe I have learned much from his approach.
The simplest way is Cheryl Netter's baggie method. Get a BIG baggie, they sell them in Wally Mart, use a mix of moist but not soggy soil free mixture of peat moss based potting soil, mix it with about 25% CLEAN sand. Put you baggie with mix on a board for stability, and so you can move it without disturbing ur cuttings. I like to use a rooting gel, try to get some with fungicide included. Your cuttings can have inbetween 2 to 4 nodes. Break off the prickles on the part that will be buried - this will act as a wound and promote rooting. Cut off the cuttings straight across, right below a node, like about 1 mm. below, with very sharp and clean bypass pruners. Keep one or two leaf structures attached to the stem, but you can trim the leaves to make sure the cutting fits into the baggie. Even though you're a new gardener, use your judgement. The soil should not be dripping wet, just damp. I like to make holes in the medium with a nail or something, and then use a medicine syringe to put about 0.5 ml of gel into the hole, then put the cutting into the hole, and then firm the medium around the cutting to ensure good contact - I use a paring knife to do this, I stick it in the medium, and push the medium into good contact with the cutting. When all done, and you have put what looks like as many cuttings as you can reasonably fit, blow with your breath into the bag to fill it with CO2.
And then seal the bag. Put it in indirect light, do not let direct sun shine on it - it will get too hot and die. The best temperature is between 70-80 for good rooting. Above that and molds will grow and it won't root either. The closer to 70, the better. If you want to add complexity, you can actually use peat pots to hold the medium, and this will help later, when you are transplanting the rooted cuttings into bigger containers. Please be sure to click on the link, and read actually what Cheryl herself has to say, if you do exactly what she says, you will be in luck. Remember to NOT put them in direct sun, ONLY INDIRECT sun, and buy a thermometer from Wally Mart, the kind with a wire and a probe on it, to sit UNDER the baggie, so you can see exactly what is your temperature - closer to 70 degrees, the better. If your roses root, and they should, it should happen within 4-6 weeks, gradually after a week make a little opening in your baggie for ventillation. This will help to keep down the growth of fungus and mold, and give a little stress to the cutting to stimulate its own production of rooting hormone. Sativa.

Here is a link that might be useful: Be sure to study Cheryl Netter's recommendation, for the easiest method, which is what you asked for.


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Just noticed a few things Cheryl said about hardening off

Apparently she doesn't open the baggie until it's definitely rooted. In my experience, I use a humididome on a standard 11x21" flat, and with that method I have been opening the vent a little bit after just one week, long before there is any rooting. You can use your own judgement here, since I get only about 50% rooting, and Cheryl seems to get close to 100%. I would be in favor of opening the bag JUST A LITTLE after a week, to try to keep the growth of mold down, and to help keep the whole thing cool. Even with a little opening in the baggie, the internal humidity will still be quite high, and since the air is totally stagnant, then evaporative stress is not too much. When I am rooting easy to root species like cannabis, actually the vent is open from day one, and they all root. But roses are more difficult than cannabis, taking 4-6 weeks to root, compared to 10-14 days for cannabis, so attention to detail is essential. Sativa.


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RE: Late cuttings, taken before snowfall, with pictures.

Hi, I've just been reading this really nice thread about how to propagate roses. I would like to propagate some Hansa roses and I wonder if this method would work for this kind of rose as well


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