as I ruefully ponder bagging blossoms in 96 degree heat among the predatory -- and aggressive!!-- paper honeycomb nesting red wasps...

I don't envy you the chore but even tho beans are self-pollinating so the odds of crossing are very slim, if you want to be 100% sure you likely already know that bagging is the only way to go. ;) And you have to do it before the blooms open as they drop their pollen the night before.

You also know of course that you don't have to bag ALL the blooms, just enough to save the seed from so that next year you can plant them MUCH further apart. ;)

Good luck.

Dave

Well, it really is a small world! Welcome to Gardenweb, Greenpaw! I thought that you had three yardlongs? The rare one I take it is "Philippine Purple"?

I am sure that hummingbirds could act as _pollinators_, by agitating the flowers. I'm just not sure they could cause cross-pollination. They are after the nectar, not the pollen... and their smooth beaks would be very inefficient for pollen transfer. Any pollen stuck to their tongue could possibly be transfered, but I don't know any specifics on the chances.

As to the reason for a supposedly daylength-sensitive variety to be blooming now... perhaps you are far enough South in Arkansas that your days are now short enough to provide the trigger, or it might be that the seed from Texas was crossed there.

(If I have you completely spooked by now, you already know me as WI HO C.) ;-)

Incidentally, the yardlongs may be the reason for your large wasp population. There is a pad on the flower stalk (located just below the flowers) that contains a substance that is very attractive to them. Fortunately, it also seems to intoxicate them; those on my yardlongs are very passive. They also feed on the many cleomes in my garden... perhaps a full wasp is a happy wasp?

Thank you BOTH very much for your input!!

DigDirt, I have decided to bag only blossoms I can reach easily... and save 2 separate batches of seeds of each variety ... one protected and one left to the mercies of nature aka hummingbirds! I invented a staple-on protector from half a coffee filter that I can just open end of when the beans have formed, and paper collar will mark my pods.

I saw a skipper butterfly on a blossom 2 days ago... doing extactly as the hummingbird did... which is going in on each side of the flower's snout and obviously finding something to drink long and slow about.

Where in Arkansas do you live... general area? I live north central in the Ozark foothills.

Zeedman, THANKS FOR REPLYING!!! I remember you well... you were MOST HELPFUL when I was first deciding what to do with the assorted yard-long seeds.

You are absolutely right about the rare bean being the Philippine Purple, which I believe you originally introduced? I do have 3 varieties of long bean ... One is a green one from my friend in Taiwan... not quite to blooming stage yet cuz I had to wait for a trellis to grow it on, and it's isolation planted. I covered the south side of a small building with it... and it's taking our 100+ heat in full sun every day.... with mulch and deep-soak watering... like it don't even know it's hot out there! I can send you pix of seeds I received and the plants in progress if you like, as I know you have listed more than one type with SSE. Request pix if desired...

The two purples ...(Yard Long, Purple Podded) and the Philippine Purple ... are growing ajacent to each other. I had originally expected to leisurely save seed of the first one, then just bag blossoms of the Philippine in the balmy mornings of September...

Also, I'm not so sure that more than 3 of the 7 Philippine plants are blooming. The way I let them intertwine cuz I had to get them all on one swing frame makes it impossible to tell, but FAR LESS blossoms among them than the Yard Long, Purple Podded.

If you think there may have been crossing during the Texas generation ... or maybe a plant or two is "breaking" from the daylength pattern... make suggestions on how you would handle saving seeds. Don't they need to be renamed? We have about a month yet to mid-September when they are expected to bloom... and with CONSIDERABLE DIFFICULTY it might be possible to separate out which vine is which....

Is there ANY POSSIBILITY that exposure to extreme drought/competitive vegetation might have triggered the blooming? We got a deep soaking rain last of June and have had NONE since then. I let that whole garden go for a full month (deliberately... I'm selecting for drought resistance) and did not water at all last week when it was obvious that I was going to lose some plants that I really wanted to still be there for fall crops. I mulch, but the underground story is clay-rock soil and the Philippine beans also share root zones with some very aggressive perenniels... antique gallica roses, poke salad, and Maypops (Passiflora incarnata)... also tomatoes within 3 feet, and tomatoes are very strong root makers, too.

Also appreciate your comments on the wasps! They line up on the crossbars and glower at me with wings buzzing and even fly within inches of my face sometimes, but so far I haven't been stung. This is amazing, considering how hateful that insect usually is. In past years, I have been stung multiple times for just venturing within a couple feet of hidden nests in outbuilds, etc.

However, every since I saw them flying off with green caterpillars lifted off my antique roses and my Red Russian kale, I am DETERMINED to let them live if at all possible. I think of it kinda like the people of Africa managing to co-exist beside the original African(killer) bees for thousands of years... if we learn what rules to follow, there should be room for all of us on this small planet!

Jan

Greentongue, it is possible that stress could have initiated flowering; there is some precedent for this with other plants. But it is more likely that a cross occurred, with the Purple Podded. Take note of the pods, as there could be differences. In that case, you should make an effort to save the seeds separately, to see if the next generation will continue to bloom early.

The smaller number of blossoms on the Philippine Purple is normal for that variety... it gets fewer, but longer pods. If the daylength sensitivity could be bred out of the variety without sacrificing the pod quality, it would be something worth saving.

Yes, I would be interested in seeing the variety from Taiwan, provided that it flowers & sets pods fairly quickly... and perhaps in obtaining some seed. If you have photos of the dry seeds, or of the pods, could you post them here? I hope that its lack of blossoms is not due to daylength sensitivity. A Malaysian variety that I am growing this year seems to have it; vigorous vines, with not so much as a bud in sight. However, three new Philippine varieties (two poles & a "bush") are growing well this year, all with pods set.

Again, Zeedman, thanks for your input!

The Taiwan green podded is in first bloom this morning, with one tiny pod set. They were seeded into slightly dryish soil ... presoaked and heavily innoculated with my "expires 12/06" innoculant... on June 16. This means they are beginning to bloom at age 56 days, but consideration of their site --- and our current record heat --- may be important ... details follow farther below. From discussion with lady who gave me the seeds, I was expecting about 75-80 days to first crop....

I have detail pictures of the seed before it was planted, and progressive pictures of the plants almost since hatching (my friend can hardly wait for the first taste of her beloved beans... asks me every week about them!... so I email her progress pictures.)

I took pix of the seeds because you had mentioned in SSE yearbook that you had different varieties of green-podded long beans from Taiwan, with differences in seeds. Might say I anticipated this discussion?

The seeds came from her 90-year-old mother's garden. We discussed her home town while looking at map on the wall in her restaurant, but the map was printed in Chinese and I couldn't pick up the name by ear. If you put a compass point on a map of Taiwan and drew a circle around the north end of the island, the steel point would be slightly below and right of the town. Rural property (I think?), inland about equidistant from coast on all 3 sides.

My friend speakes "Hi, GLAD TO SEE YOU" English, but can't phonetically translate an English version of Chinese words. Discussing gardening in general is also difficult, as she doesn't have the right vocabulary for it, so my education is coming from her holding up something I just brought her and her explaining by pointing where the plant would have branched and made more if I had pinched the top earlier and let it grow like a chrysanthemum instead of a vine!

I'm also beginning to suspect that she personally doesn't have a lot of general gardening experience... or at least she's never seen the plants whose seeds she brought grown in this climate. She has had very limited success to total failure with all but the long beans, as has one other local lady (presumed native hillbillie)with whom she also shared her seeds. However, she is VERY INTERESTED in learning to garden well here... says it is what she would like to do when they finally close the restaurant. Next year we are planning for her to visit mine from February onward to see what I am doing and what happens because of it.

They have lakefront property at large local recreational lake, where they spend most weekends...and her garden is there... untended and deer-raided all week. So far this year she has had 2-3 beans a week from her plants....but apparently had good crops in other years.

Now, about the planting site:

I'm forever looking for micro-climates (as I suspect you are too?... reference to expanding the possibilities of your planting zone). I live so close to zone 6 (within 20 miles) that I plant as if I will have zone 6 winters, and 1-2 times per decade I do. I'm having significant success with zone 7/8 borderline plants south of my carport. These beans went into a nearly idential site, provided by arrival of a new building this winter).

However, I have to deal with runoff from the roof during rains* (a bed of rocks under the dripline), sun that I figger equals 125 degrees on a summer day due to reflection off light siding (mulch well and choose plants from hot lands), and rock/raw clay soil as the base soil (mulch + earthworms progressively improves soil). Sites drain well.. we are on a north-sloping hillside that drops about 3 feet each 50 feet, so even 8 inches of water will clear in about 24 hours.

I call such sites my "Palm Springs Desert" beds. Current successes are:
figs (Chicago Hardy dependable; Alma fruits too late and fails most years),
"Arp" rosemary (the most winter hardy variety),
Allium tuberosum (Chinese Chives)(reseeded as a weed here),
ornamentals: Salvia Greggii, Daylily "Hyperion", assorted historical bearded iris, a tulip (probably Triumph class) from a WalMart forced pot, and Narcissi at front edge (earliest varieties only... will bloom 7-10 days earlier than in open ground = cut flowers earlier) A few natives do seed in that can take the heat, too. I left a sassafras that will have to come out soon or become a disaster.

You probably already know that we are under a dome of high pressure that is making the heat 100 to 103, with heat factor about 10 degrees hotter. Over a week of it, and a week yet to come per forcast...

The beans are trellised on the wall, and I have woven them back and forth across 2 to 3 trellis wires to take up some of the length of the vines, as wall is only 8 ft high. This area is a kill zone for sapling trees, trumpet vines, blackberries, and African grasses that seeded into an old iris border. No chemicals... just persistent destruction of new growth from very strong roots. Their continuosly cut/pulled bodies are the mulch here. I have deep-soaked with garden hose weekly in this heat, as I really want this crop to succeed. Bitter melon is sharing southeast corner of building... still setting & producing fruit, but the quality and size are down since the high pressure heat moved in.

Pictures... ain't sure how to post them below this note, so I will post them in the pictures section under GREAT VEGETABLES, as a story in progress.

Jan

*Slope of roof and run-off is a mixed blessing. This means a torrent to deal with when we get a significant rain, but it also means that meager 1/4 inch is actually 2 inches delivered to the root zones of plants along the rocks under the dripline. I laid South of Carport rocks so they fan the water out to the site as a controlled run-off. Will add rocks here this winter... when I can dig stumps and spend real time here. I just noted location of drip line so I could plant a bit outside it.

Zeedman, Regarding your getting some seeds. DEFINITELY SO!! Just tell me in advance how many you'd like so I save enough.

Also if you have a LIMITED number of varieties that you'd like to test in this crucible of 100+ heat, drought (most years 2 months+), heavy clay/rock soil, endless bugs and plant diseases, and gardner semi-neglect .... discuss it with me, preferably the autumn before. I have very limited cleared spaces, but I can plant a short row or a few plants of quite a lot of things, provided I have allowed for them so the ground isn't already committed by a long season crop.

I failed to address appearance of the Philippine Purple pods... I have never seen this vegetable grow before, but I can give comparison description. The pods are averaging 24 inches long, a light red color, quite uniform in diameter. The Yardlong, Purple Pod looks coarse, dark, and heavy beside them, and is much shorter (16" on first sets, now about 12" in this heat). I've been harvesting the latter just shy of "shelly" stage (1 cm to 1/2 inch diameter), as that is preferred maturity of the lady from Taiwan, who is my local consultant and co-consumer.

She discussed Yard Long, Purple Pod via telephone with her mother in Taiwan, who assured her it was the same thing except purple and would like seeds herself, please! My friend considers the "pencil size" harvest recommendations to rob the vegetable of its flavor, and I can testify that they are absolutely delicious and still tender at more mature stage she recommends. Cooking method I've used: adaptation of Chinese Dry-Fried beans from numerous internet sites.... and my friend's instructions!

Based on seeding date, the first bloom on the Philippine was less than a week after the first bloom of the Yardlong Purple. The Yardlong Purple plant in the pix I posted a few hours ago is from the first (pot) sowing, and other plant of same date was a month later to bloom, presumably due to having too good a life...

Chart of dates and sowings: NOTE: necessity of protection from woodchucks, baby rabbits, and field mice means all plants caged with 1/2" hardware cloth when planted... Also shading in early stages from 3-foot high seed crops of brassicas and coriander wintered over in area. No other place I could put them and still have supports later. Pix at various stages available. Current health: The Philippines seem fine (no foliage diseases); Some of the Yardlong, Purple Podded have possible soybean rust and yellowing... but it's not every plant and not stopping their production. I have found nearly identical fungi on wild Soldiago(?)- Goldenrod - foliage... and they seem to keep standing, too.

This chart should answer a lot of questions... until I can grow more pods of Philippine and post pix. The first 9 went into a Doorprize gift for a Senior Citizens group... fortunately won by a lady who will probably try the Dry-Fried recipe included and bring me a report next month.

Yardlong, Purple Podded (first sowing):

April 17: Deep-quart pot sowing of 2 x 2 seeds/innoculated
April 22: Came up (3 of 4 seeds)
April 24: Both pots' seedlings set in garden without root disturbance.
June 28. First bloom on the plant in the posted pix ..it went outside the "improved" garden, in raw clay / weed competition. Posted pix was taken July 31, with over 2 weeks harvest already gone.
July 28-29 First bloom of plant inside garden with all the water it wants and high-nitro fertilizer.
Mid August - Producing heavy harvest at this time

Yardlong, Purple Podded (2nd sowing):

May 10... Direct seeded in semi-improved soil/innoculated
May 15 ... Seeds up nearly 100%
July 26 ... First bloom
Mid August ... producing steady harvest in 100+ heat ... watered last week

Yardlong, Philippine Purple (first sowing):
April 17 -- deep quart direct seeded 2 x 2 / innoculated
April 23 -- 1 seed only came up
April 24 -- Set in garden without disturbing roots
May 13 this plant started looking really sick.. internet research suggested Soybean rust... (pix are available)
May 18 - pulled it and sent away in trash pick-up, lest it spread to all my new Vigna seedlings... plus my other 3 species of legumes in that area...

Yardlong, Philippine Purple:
May 10 - direct seeded 4 sticks / innoculated
May 15 - up nearly 100% !
May 25 - 1/3 of seedlings yellowing and dying... pulled and removed from area. Yardlong Purple seemed unaffected.
July 31 - discovered 2 plants blooming, with a small pod already set on one

Comparison photos taken this dawn of Yardlong, Philippine Purple and Yardlong, Purple Pod. Posted in photo gallery under Great Vegetables. Hope they clarify. There are other individual / clusters of beans also photographed same day, but shortest will still be at least 20 inches...and it's on plants showing drought the most. Request if needed.

greentongue

Reviewing the photos, the Philippine Purple pods appear normal... so the flowering may be stress-induced. It would still be worthwhile to save the first seeds & try it again next year, to see if it continues to flower early.

There is another yardlong that I am growing this year, Long White Snake. It too has vigorous vines, but no flowers yet... by comparison, three other varieties from the Philippines are already bearing (much to my delight). The bean is a white-seeded variety from Malaysia, and may also be daylength-sensitive.

I have two 15-foot rows, and will attempt to stress one of them into flowering, using root pruning. Greentongue, if I am unsuccessful, I may have one more rare bean to trade with you! I still have a fairly good amount of the original seed.

Thanks again, Zeedman, for the added information. I picked and tasted raw the Philippine pod in the pix this AM... distinctively sweet!! Your description in SSE Yearbook of its eating quality was why I wanted to try it.

If you have another plant requiring a trellis, L-O-N-G-E-S-T possible notice is helpful, cuz that's something I haven't got much of. Stress, tho, I can nearly guarantee, cuz we don't get but about 1 year in 10 with adequate rain, and I also have do advance planning to put roots in improved ground. One nice thing about clay... when you add organics, you get a water retentive soil with high fertility. The people with sand never seem to be able to get the results I do, even with sprinkler systems.

Anna's green yardlongs (from Taiwan) weren't planted until mid-June (waiting for trellis)... and she was almost in tears thinking I wasn't going to plant them. She thinks they are much better tasting than the Yardlong, Purple Podded, altho she is accepting purple happily as better than none at all. Did the seeds look familiar to you? I'm not sure how "regional" crops are there, which is why I described approximate location where her mother lives. What amazes me is that her mother knew of the Purple Pods but hadn't grown them. It may be cultural frugality to only get passalong seeds? Clue:there is 1/4 of a bar of soap in the ladies' room at her restaurant, as in quartered before being put out!

I was deep-soak watering today again, and noticed that the Philippine is showing almost sunburn damage to its leaves, while my other beans (8 varieties in 3 species) had little to none. Harder look, and I found everybody else turning their leaflets horizontal or nearly so during the heat of day (104, index over 110). Philippine makes a slight attempt with the center leaflet, but is not so efficient at it, but its leaves are hugh by comparison to the other Vignas. Maybe you should install heatlamps in your garden as well as pruning roots?

I'm not sure where all you have lived and gardened...I think you mentioned San Diego once?... but there is something about our Ozark mix of rock and clay soil plus the intense heat plus 2 months+ drought most summers that makes it a killer for plants.

I started with 24 tomato varieties this year. 5 still standing at a level I would call successful... Bad as this year has been, I wish I could have had 100 out there under trial!! The spring had a month of just enough rain nearly every day to bring out every possible foliage disease... now we have had record heat and drought; Here's the real clincher: 4 of my 5 "still there" tomatoes are varieties that passed thru the hands of Chuck Wyatt, 2 of which he is specifically credited with developing / improving.

I bought the seeds late summer 2006 from the lady living at his address, and when I revisited the website this spring, alarms going off everywhere... owner refusing to answer questions, etc. My seeds were coming up like they were 5+ years old. Googling Chuck Wyatt, I was very impressed to learn that he was actually Dr. Charles Wyatt, a specialist in tomato diseases, and that he may have actually grown / saved the seeds I suspect were being sent out.

Years ago there was a Husband/wife team near Fayetteville ... both MS+ in Horticulture... who spent 30 years testing fruit trees that actually would do well in the Ozarks, with both soil and weather problems to deal with. Their 6" x 9" catalog was about 16 pages... and even a lot of those listings were with qualifications.

enuf... my greentongue getting off subject again.

I got a few seeds from Bountiful Gardens... apparently Maritime climate... so I direct-seeded some of their "sets in cool weather" summer crops to try to get an 80-day maturity test as we slip into the cool of Sept and chilly nights of October. Ever had tomato seeds come up in 3 days? yep, Chadwick's Cherry did and are growing well...but Matt's Wild Cherry planted beside them as test is just standing there whimpering. North Arizona melon, listed as the best cool weather melon and preferring warm rather than hot weather, is barely growing at all, not even when partly shaded...

And my brother in SE Wyoming... using seeds I sent him... is thrilled with best results he has ever had in that climate. His first okra crop ever, Super Sioux tomato doing well, etc, etc... That's a home run that wins the World Series for us and that climate, cuz our beloved mother planted a garden every year and would carry in a couple of 2-3 oz misshapen tomatoes as her prize. She loved gardening more than anything, but NOTHING ever seemed to do well except turnips and Pinto Beans. Wish she could be here to see what is coming of experiments with heirlooms.

OOPS.... ANOTHER SENIOR MOMENT WRONG WORD. Correction on my previous posting regarding position of leaves in heat of day on Philippine Purple ... Other species and varieties of Beans were turn their leaflets VERTICAL in heat of day, NOT horizontal. Wish I had a 2nd proofreader....

greentongue