ahhh, John, yer killing me!! ahhhh!! anger is just at my door!! LOL i have two kids and a hubs who anger me more than those words!! GEEZE!! **onery smile** (shhhh don't let John know, but i think he thinks that we are wimps!! Hee Hee with all the newer generation) **grinn**
we all have different ways of gardening!! so it doesnt' bother me one way or another how anyone say's if i'm doing it right or wrong. but i am glad if i even get one or two out of them, why???? because, i did get food. i know that its not as good as the guy/gal who did get hundreds but its mine. **big smile** and i did it with love. did they?? i bet not. i bet they were griping the whole or even half the time. how many weeds did they pull? did they share it with their kids? ya know, just crazy things like that. i just enjoy the things i do, some of it i fail at, but i am happy with it. nope, no anger here. alll happiness!! ~Medo

Here is a link that might be useful: Barehanded Totally Nutso Gardener!! **Big Grinn**

I'm with everyone else that's posted before. It's more of a space or placement issue than a specific desire to have a sfg or plain old raised bed filled with homemade compost. For example I would only put a conventional garden on a flat area with good drainage. I don't have a lot of space and the areas of my yard that are flat with good drainage I'm not willing to give up. Solution spend a little extra time building a raised bed on the marginal parts of my yard. I don't loose any soil like I would with a conventional garden on a hill, I have to push my mower up and down the hill less and I still have a nice place to do outdoor activities when I have people over. If you have a ton of space with a good location for a garden a sfg seems kind of silly since you could do basically the same thing without having to build anything or getting any special amendments besides tones of compost and manure. Just dump it , till it in, or simply rake it out and start planting.

John,
In what way was your RB not up to par? Was it the overall harvest, or certain veggies that may not have gotten enough space (like your cabbage maybe)? Are you thinking it's the RB, the growing medium, or the spacing that's not quite right?

I was very happy with my garden this year. I can't say that yields were more or less than if I had gardened in a different way, since I'm new to this area, and I've never really kept track of the yields before. I do feel that other than I squeezed too much into the space I had (underestimated the size of a few plants), overall the garden just seemed to stay in better shape than the ones I had before.

Of course, my first real garden was in west Texas calliche, and the fire ants took over every July. The second one, in MT was occasionally, "visited" (read dug, trampled or eaten) by the dogs. I also never added large amounts of OM like this one, although I did usually dig in the fall leaves in MT. Then, I didn't grow veggies for about about 3 years. So, long story short, I can't really compare. I grew in raised beds b/c of reading I did online, and the fact that the ground just didn't look like it would be the most productive (looks like lots of hard sand and gravel). I also have learned a TON of info and practical knowledge online and on GW, so I do a lot of things differently. I can say that my neighbors were quite surprised that I managed to grow much of anything here. (I'm pretty sure they think I'm a bit nutty for it, but I'm eating good food all summer long...so I don't care)

Good morning all. I cannot reply to every post individually, I will just explain where I am coming from. I think that Mel B. has done a fantastic job at getting young people interested in gardening and I hope he continues forever. The only difference between my RB and SFG is the mix and plant spacing and that is a matter of choice. What I would like to see is that everybody that uses the RB/SFG style of gardening is to strive for perfection. I would like to say to the experts that say; you cannot garden/farm any other way than there way, oh yes you can. I would like to say to the experts that say; you cannot farm RB/SFG style commercially, oh yes you can. I am a part owner of the family farm and if I were a young man, I would certainly be giving it some consideration. Can you imagine the organic material going to landfills that could be saved?

John

Here is a link that might be useful: Johns Journal

I've seen a lot of mediocre veggies at the fair. I think my best comparison is to the local farmstand gardener who needs to grow a lot of high quality early maturing produce. We moved in 2007 from a shady yard to a big sunny one. I have plenty of room for gardens but time is also a consideration. I'm going to continue buying corn from the local stand. It's great and someone else is dealing with the racoons. I started layering a lasagna garden in 2007 and topped it with some wonderful aged horse manure mixed with bedding. I also planted cherry tomatoes and heirloom peppers against the south side of the house and around the kitchen porch. While production was very good, the soil did not get as much good base material as the lasagna garden. An experienced row gardener couldn't grow zucchini last year and another local farm family didn't have enough zucchini to make relish. Lots of people had trouble growing squash and pumpkins because of rain. The winter squash I grew in the lasagna bed has been outstanding. I only had 3 zucchini plants but they were prolific. I gave 6 big z bats to my farmer friends so they could make relish. I think my biggest mistake was edging the front side of the lasagna garden with nasturtiums which were mostly foliage because the soil was so fertile. Although I built the garden using lasagna methods, I planted it like a square foot garden. It has been quite a few years since I grew a variety of vegetables and I made some foolish mistakes like thinking I would harvest green beans before the winter squash vines started sprawling. The second bed that contained a zucchini corner was also planted beets, chard, etc. We were really happy with the results. OTH another emergency garden bed where I simply opened up lawn and poorly prepared the soil for transplanting perennials did mediocre. I planted some butternut squash at one end and nothing about the planting was good.
We don't own a big tiller. The sod is very thick so it seemed that removing the sod took out a lot of material. It seemed to make more sense to build on top of sod using lasagna methods. It was a lot less work. There is only two of us although I share veggies with other family. I don't need a large garden. I don't have sides on my beds and I keep them narrow so I don't have to walk on them all the time when I weed and harvest.

I think that your missing the difference that makes raised bed gardening unique in my mind. It has nothing to do with yields and more to do with all the other parts that go into growing vegetables. Last year I had to do almost zero weeding, watered sparingly, and harvested easily in my 32 sq ft bed.

Comparing that to my friends who devote an acre to growing vegetables who had to constantly run a pump from their creek to water the garden, till their garden in the spring, dump tons of preen on the weeds all over the garden, and go out in the mud and muck to harvest the same things I was pulling out of my garden.

It's easier, cleaner, more environmentally friendly, and I might add more economical once your beds are established than regular gardening.

Do I think Mel's method is the end all be all? No not at all, people have been intensive gardening in urban environments for long before Mel came around. It's up to each individual to figure out what works for them in the area their growing in. My friend with the acre garden lives less than 10 minutes away, but we have drastically different results with the same veggies.

jleiwig, In my opinion, it has everything to do with yields otherwise, I would be planting flowers in that space. I agree with your other assessments though. I also think that RB/SFG has the potential to perform better than conventional gardening. The time that I save by not tilling or weeding will be used to improve my yield this year.

John

Here is a link that might be useful: Johns Journal

Are you comparing apples to apples with your yields? Is your conventional garden covering the same exact square footage as your raised bed garden for the same vegetable? Is your conventional garden new as your raised beds are?

If your comparing yields from a conventional garden where the soil has been worked and conditioned for years at a time to a raised bed garden that you have created in the last year or two then there is no comparison in my mind.

But if you took a fresh new ground garden and a fresh new raised bed garden, I'd put my money on the raised bed everytime. It reminds me much of hydroponics which I dabble in from time to time (mostly taken over by druggies now) I create the perfect growing medium for the plants I'm planting. You cannot do this with a regular garden without years and years of soil conditioning.

I am comparing yields of individual plants. 2008 was the first year for my RB and 35 years for my conventional garden and I realize the difference. What I am saying is, I know the potential of my conventional garden and I think I can mach or surpass it with the RB style. I did not expect the RB to mach it the first year. The first year compost is almost all humus now with lots of red worms and I top-dressed them with HM compost. This year may be the one.;O)

John

Here is a link that might be useful: Johns Journal

The key to SFG, IMHO, is that soon petrochemicals will be very expensive, driving up the price of food (along with other factors).

The techniques worked out in SFG will have to scale up much more to feed money-constrained folks.

So it's great that you think your RB is great and all, but in a few short years many will be trying a SFG to offset some of their costs and to have a cheap form of something to do. Keep the stories coming, as this forum will be a record for others to refer to.

Dan

I truely believe that there are 100 ways to grow a tomato. They're all right, but some may work better for you than others. I don't know anyone who follows Mel's method 100%. I figure I'm about 90% with him and always finding new ways to do things.

You hit it on the head though. Mel's book has turned young and old into gardeners since 1980, and that's saying something. I see it as a good start and I'm happy to give him credit for my garden. I still did all the work, which I believe to be much less than if I had an acre to work with.

"The difficult part will be determining what the right way is"

I don't think there is a "right" way to garden...it depends on sooo many factors (type of soil, rainfall, climate, what produce you want to grow...). To each their own...that's how I look at it.

As for me, I am not that concerned with getting a record about of produce. I am looking for healthy produce (free of pesticides, herbicides and insecticides) and to have a fun time gardening. I do not want to spend a whole lot of time weeding and tilling...so RBs are a fit for me.

Here is a link that might be useful: How my garden grows!

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How's this idea.

georgeiii-I think the city would slap some major fines on me if I tried that here. They are strict about your grass being to tall, so I couldn't imagine how beserk they would go if you had a bunch of dutch bucket hydro systems all around!

I think it is a great use of every square inch of space. Forget square FOOT gardening, hehe. Oh, and my wife would never let that happen.

I think that, plant for plant, my raised bed garden is on par with the traditional garden I had 5 years ago.

My methods lean more towards bio-intensive as I just cannot imagine spending so much $$$$ on growing medium. But also, I am in a position where I don't need to. Good top soil to start and a chicken coop full of personal compost machines is a definite advantage.

love the pics georgeii

Hmmm...John- I think that maybe you missed the point of SFG. The point (in my understanding) is to be able to feed your household without the extensive space, time, energy and waste of resources that go into a traditional row garden (and by freeing the gardener allow more time to ENJOY the outcome). Also another thing that is different is that in SFG you aren't trying to match the yields of a traditional row garden (After all what normal family needs 20 heads of lettuce at one time?) but to stagger plantings so that you feed yourselves all season long.

I've done it both ways- I tried the SFG method to the letter of the law and had AMAZING results. Last year I helped with a regular RB garden and spent nearly every waking hour weeding and watering...it hit home that SFG was the method of choice for me. So this year we're replacing the standard beds with SF beds (can't wait!).

But, as everyone who's previously posted- since gardening is a hobby...do it whatever way makes you happy and you'll be fine...it's not a competitive sport :-)

corriinpdx, I have never been interested in competitive sports my entire life; I am pretty much a loaner. The only person I compete with is myself weather it be gardening, woodworking or for my employer. As of late, it is just gardening. My farther always told me when I was growing up, that if it is not worth doing Wright, it is not worth doing. No matter what gardening style, you chouse, you should strive for the best in appearance, plant health and production. I hope this explains where I am coming from and what my point is.

John

Here is a link that might be useful: Johns Journal

John - The reason that I have not commented until now, is because the question is really difficult to comprehend. I almost think that you should remove at least 2 feet of soil in your yard, then fill the hole with compost, and plant it. Are you against the sfg method, or something? For me, the discovery of sfg was one of the happiest days of my life, because of my landscape. I'm thrilled to get any harvest for my efforts, because there was not much that could be grown prior to last year. I say, if you aren't happy with your yields, then build more trellises. BTW, you didn't piss me off....heh.

EG

Well I guess I still did not make my point. I love the concept of RD/SFGing I just do not want new gardeners to be satisfied with a harvest without knowing what is possible. I would like for everybody to set back at the end of the year, have a BM and say Âdamn that was a good year. I am not there yet with the RB/SFG, but the potential is there and come hell or high water I will get the harvest I know is possable. Does that make any sense?

John
p.s. sorry for being PO.

Here is a link that might be useful: Johns Journal

That makes sense, John. You just don't want the newbies to get discouraged with this method, because of possible low yields. I feel that if a new gardener has the space for a traditional garden, then that is what they will do everytime. It is the way that everyone has gardened in the past, for as long as humans have walked the earth. Now, go make yourself another BM, compost man. Heh.

EG

I don't like BMs, John. Can I opt for a VBM?

When I have to give half my stuff away to my neighbor, my garden is producing enough. That's why I fight Mr. H every time I want a new bed...not because we NEED more, but because I just like to grow it, even if I have to give it away. Growing veggies just make me feel better/more useful than growing grass.

Granny

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

Hic mine are almost VBMs. Believe me, I gave away plenty of veggies this year. Maybe my old garden is too fresh in my mind, but I know the RB/SFG has the potential to meet or surpass the productivity of that garden. I think the major factors this year were the sheer volume of bedding that the microbes and red worms had to work on and the plant spacing. I put the microbes and red worm on steroids (HM) and will increase the plant spacing this year. There is just DW and myself and we could get away with 3-4 beds but I have 16, so my objective is not just to feed the family but also to have fun. The more beds the more fun. I shuda been a farmer.

John

Here is a link that might be useful: Johns Journal

Um...John, I say - the more trellises, the more fun. Hee Hee. I think I have a trellis fetish, or something....

EG

I agree. With everything, including EG's trellis fetish. Hehe. But I am not lucky enough to have all the space you do John, so my challeng is to grow more in 150 SF. I'll do it with strict succession plantings and scattered SWCs. I want to look back in 1 year and be happy with all I grew, ate, put up and gave away.

"I want to look back in 1 year and be happy with all I grew, ate, put up and gave away."

And WROTE ABOUT. Don't forget all the work you put in for the education of the masses, Sinfonian. To all the garden bloggers, I applaud you. Gardening is more than planting a seed in the dirt.

Granny

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

I am new to this forum, and just wanted to put my two cents worth on this subject. I've been gardening in the same spot for 30 years. I started with about 3,000 sq ft by regular row method, but switched over the garden to raised beds and SFG about 15 years ago. Now my garden has 13 raised beds that are 50' long. I get more out of these beds than I ever did row planting. But it took lots of years, lots of manure and lots of labor to do it. The first few years I wondered why I was doing all of this work. So I think you have to look at the long term advantage to SFG.

Farmer deb - 13 beds, 50 feet long? Holy Moly....If they were only 1 foot wide, that would still be 650 sqft. I'll say it again, Holy Moly.....I'd drool over a picture of that, especially if you had lots of trellises thrown in...

EG

Yeah, over on his blog, EG is excited about the miracle increase to 201 SF. And I don't blame him, I'm sitting at around 150 depending how you count the SWCs and blueberry beds.

It's great to have your prospective here Farmer Deb!

Hi farmer_deb, and welcome. I suspect you are doing some commercial gardening or you are in charge of the local food bank. I am sure you will have some valuable input.

John

Here is a link that might be useful: John's Journal

Hi - My beds are 3 to 4 feet wide - so, yes, I have a large garden. I started out with about 4 beds, and kept adding them as the years go by. My whole garden is beds now. I have several trellised areas for squash, beans and cucumbers, rotating every year. We raise horses, sheep/goats, chickens and ducks, so I have access to lots of manure and hay. No, I'm not commercial. I just grow lots of my own food with canning and freezing. And I love to try new and different things. I grow just about everything you can think of. And, at first, I didn't get the yields from square foot gardening that I should have. It just took lots more compost and manure to enrich my heavy clay soil than I anticipated, plus lots of time to do it. I will send pictures later. I just found this forum, and I feel like I've "Found my people"....

Deb - you are my hero. That's all I can think to say right now, because i'm actually speechless. Wow. You're not a baby carrot murderer, are you? Heh. (granny)

EG

Oh yeah Deb, I think I can't wait to see your garden, lol. You totally belong with us.

Wow Deb, that is amazing. I bet during the spring and summer that size garden keeps you hopping. That's just great.

And to make EG speachless, that's an accomplishment. Bravo! Hehe

I sure hope you continue to set us straight and provide tons of pics to drool over. Thanks!

Here is a link that might be useful: Sinfonian's garden adventure

OK, Deb...since you are now "one of us", will you please talk to my DH about turning the rest of our back yard into raised beds? I'm getting nowhere with him ;-)

Anyone who can make EG speechless can work miracles.

Granny

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

Granny,
This is how I work it. When DH goes out of town for something - I do all of the things he argues with me about. I just don't tell him what I'm going to do ahead of time :) Like building more garden space.... And I do all of the work myself - so no debates. Hey - how do I add pics? Found some really good ones of my past gardens - and it shows the kind of production I can get from SFG.

Deb, you get an account (free) with some place like PhotoBucket, Picasa, etc., then upload your pictures to that. Then come here and ask again and someone who uses that photo website can give you further instructions. I use Photobucket, but I've been having some uploading problems with that lately :-(

Granny

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

Ok you two...I heard that! heh.

Deb - bring on the trellis pics! Woo Hoo! I can't get enough of them.....

EG

Ahhh Deb, I know how that works. My DH didn't want to build a garden. When he went to TX in May, I built it myself. A few years ago, he didn't like the color I was planning to paint the living room, so I did it (along with all the other rooms) while he was in Korea for a year...

Hmmmm....he's talking about going overseas for another year....

Ha-ha, Greenbean! That's the way to train your guy!

I pretty much do what I want to, also. I just try to skew it so HE thinks it's HIS idea ;-)

Granny

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

Granny, that's a skill I need to learn. Sometimes I think he's jealous of dirt...

Good one, Greenbean...good one!

Granny

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

Hehe folks. Just call it your hobby and do what you want. My wife thinks I'm insane but it's my hobby so it's ok.

Oh and folks, notice how we are seriously hijacking a thread that's probably pi$$ing off John, especially when he gets an email when we post here?

I'm not one to recommend an OT thread, but maybe one is in order so we can get back to being mad at John for not letting us call our) system SFG hehe.

sinfonian, I don't get POed, I get even. Anybody can call there style anything they want. A few of mine will be SFG but most will just be RBs.;o)

John

Here is a link that might be useful: My Journal

'That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet'

But if we would call it a peice of sh#%, who would smell it to find out?

John

Here is a link that might be useful: Johns Journal

LOL Deb, that is exactly what i do, only its when hubs goes to work, when we went to visit my dad and susie (my dad's wife) we were catching up on things, and everytime i was telling them about something, like how i fixed the dryer i wasn't supposed to touch, or the washer i wasn't supposed to touch, or something else, it all started with the words "when hubs went to work" LOL **big smile** ya mean, ya haven't started an ot in a while?? LOL Geeze, LOL
John, i forget, what's RB?
~Medo

Medo, Raised Bed. To me though it is SFG without the grid or plant spacing.

John

Here is a link that might be useful: Johns Journal

Got it!! i don't use the "grid" mine is imaginary!! LOL so i suppose that's exactly what i do. LOL tabor said this spring he wants to do rows, i said NO!! he said ok, how about we do sfg, but on your boxes you do what you want and on my boxes, for him its rows, i said, ok, because i don't have to weed them or get onto him about weeding, and for me, it would be interesting to see the outcome. LOL ~Medo