I have come up with mixed opinions online of people saying that horse manure would burn or isn't a problem fresh. If I mix it down to 50% or less with other stuff when I put it in, and wait a week or two before planting seedlings, what do you think?

I also have a message in to what I think is a local mushroom plant... but i don't know if they grow the mushrooms here or just process, and so I don't know yet if they will have compost...

I'm thinking about filling the bottom with the cheapest gravel I can find, and throwing in some wood that was around the yard starting to rot. I also have lots of leaves and pine needles that I might bury... but none of it is decomposed yet, so I don't know if it would be problematic to have it decomposing underground while plants are growing or helpful?

My only gardening experience previously was in Hawaii, where anything grows any time of year anywhere you put it... So I'm a little nervous about trying to make a successful vegetable garden in Nevada. At least I have lots of trees, so it won't be the dry heat that it would be otherwise.

Does anyone have any other recommendations? Are my ideas all terrible and I should chuck them out and go with something else? Any help or advice will be greatly appreciated!

Leaves mixed with fresh manure is a good start on compost, but as you are already guessing, it needs to spend some time mixed before it is going to be a good matrix for planting in. Around here, even mushroom compost needs a few weeks to calm down before putting plants straight in it (though if you can add mushroom compost to the mix of manure and leaves, so much the better).

A time I was forced by circumstance to plant in a fresh bed where the mix was still cooking, I used a good bagged potting (not garden) soil that did not have many big chunks in little pockets around each seed or seedling so they had a "safe" area to get established while the rest of the bed cooked down around them.

Example: http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/ehs/zoonotics/horses.a spx

Medical bills are likely higher than finding a better source of manure. I know folks will say they've used it for years with no problems but, is it really worth the risk...penny-wise, etc.

Just food for thought ;-)

I think you could get away with filling the bottom half of the bed with manure, wood, and leaves, and putting something more finished in the top half. Then just avoid deep digging or tilling for the next two years.

Can you get compost or planting mix by the truckload where you live? That would be great for the top half, and should not cost too much. Not like bagged stuff!

We compost our manure and bedding (which are inevitably combined) for about 2 years before we use it in the garden. There are health issues with both horse manure and mushroom compost which are easily sourced using google. EG, try mushroom compost issues for starters.

Gardening is a lot of fun, and I hope it will become so for you. I do think you need to do a little more thinking before jumping into it, but we all have learned a great deal just by making some mistakes, so good for you for asking up front for the thoughts of others.

Take care and good luck.

With all due respect to you, sir (and I have obtained and read several times your helpful "the wealthy earth"), these are pretty broad and unequivocal statements! Would you please expand on each of them?

And also of course describe the mix you have developed?

I am genuinely perplexed by what you have stated in your post and would very much appreciate further insight into how you arrived at and would document your conclusions.

Thank you.

On page 87 of the ANSFG book Mel says; "Mel's mix may be the most costly part of SFG, yet at the same time it is the most cost effective...if you skimp on this item, you'll be disappointed in all the rest. But, if you do it right, all the other advantages of the SFG will fall into place and you will be the richest gardener on the block. Sorry to be so adamant, but this is really what makes SFG so different and successful. We have never had a failure of SFG except when someone decides to skimp on the ingredients to save a few buck." All I was doing was reiterating that point. I'm not even saying people have never failed at the SFG. In fact they do, but it's usually due to 2 simple reasons.

I also think that asking folks to spend $60-70 for one 4X4' box is a lot. Some don't have that kind of money to spend. I guess I don't know what I said that was seen as so incorrect. I think the proof lies in the pudding.

We've had a lot of neighbors who have tried a SFG but it didn't work. And when you look at what they did, they did all sorts of things like: getting free "soil" from the municipal dump, amending their previous soil with just horse manure, using only steer manure, buying "top soil", buying Miracle Grow soil, etc. A couple of them had a garden that was very mediocre for the money they spent year one, but it was very poor year two.

My point was simple: use this mix and you don't need to know anything about soil composition, organic content, or even fertilizer-especially if you make your own compost. Anything will grow in this stuff-there's very few vegetables I haven't tried in 13-14 years. I document my conclusions based on what I've been able to do, and what I've seen others do after they have failed. I've seen 2 common patterns that emerge after many years of observation and comparisons. And please don't take that as boasting at all, it's not meant to be. I know very little about gardening. If I had to rely on reading books and buying amendments, fertilizers, and chemicals to make a soil as good as this, I probably could. But the point is you don't have to do all of that. I hope that makes sense. maybe it doesn't-it wouldn't be the first time.

In checking the SFG website the benefits stated include "yield for area used; less weeding; efficient use of water; easy to understand; user friendly; locate anywhere; economical; efficient; easy to protect; earth friendly; very productive." I wouldn't disagree with any of these claims except for it being economical. But every single one of these advantages except for that one would *not* be lost if one were to use some other soil mix for the beds. There are numerous examples on this and other boards indicating that many of those who have dared to modify the recommendations have been very successful.

Obviously the cost of the mix is high and steadily increasing. Thus many people are forced to modify the recipe. It is difficult for me to believe that any decent soil would not produce good crops using this method, and/or that making a modification such as using only one kind of compost rather than five would doom one to failure. And it is also difficult for me to believe that after several years of adding only compost back to the original mix, essentially reducing whatever is left to only a small percentage of the soil content, would essentially be any different from starting out with a decent soil and lots of good compost (rather than the mel mix).

I realize that this will be called heretical in some quarters, but it makes sense to me. I started out with the mix done as best as we could possibly do it, and didn't have much luck. After adding in a mix of good garden soil and compost, drastically reducing the percentages of peat and vermiculite, we finally have a nice garden. I just wish we had done that in the first place.

Many aspects of SFG are really great. I do think that the insistence on using the MM is spoiling it for a lot of people who could otherwise be successful gardeners.

Thanks for listening. Take care. Over and out.

Efficient use of water, yield area used, weeding, and a few of the other advantages spoken about above etc. are examples of things that definitely leave you with an advantage using this mix. Single rows can't keep up to the yield for the space involved-you will grow 16 carrots in a single row garden that takes 4 linear feet, or you can grow 25 carrots in 1 square foot-huge advantage with the SFG. There's no question about it-you will use less water because of the vermiculite. There's no weeding because there's no weed seed in the mix. Peat moss has none, and neither does vermiculite. There shouldn't be any in compost if it's finished because it would have been heated to 140-150+ degrees or even hotter. That kills weed seed. Many a home gardener can talk about the weeds they have from their own homemade compost. You can use just one ingredient if you'd like, such as horse manure. The advantages of a blended compost are clear, I believe. There are some flowers that can grow in poor soil-tulips as one example. I've seen those grow between cracks in the cement. Granted the cracks in the cement had to be large enough, but it's happened. You're going to need more fertilizer to grow vegetables than you might for flowers. You can fix a variety of ills by buying commercial fertilizers, etc. and many, many gardeners/farmers do. This is another advantage of using a "blended" compost-you've got more trace elements available. Many people will use horse manure for a fertilizer and call that their compost. As good as that might be, it's basically two ingredients-what the horse ate and what it was bedded in-maybe 3. That's it. And then you've also got to deal with the weeds in that too. There are many home gardeners who have great gardens and they have to work very hard to get/keep a good growing medium. My point is that you don't have to do any of that. Folks like this spend a lot of time in their gardens trying to get or keep their soil in good condition, and some of them succeed. Many don't. They work hard in the spring and fall trying to amend their soil, bringing in loads of leaves, manure, etc. That's a lot of hard work! I guess I've decided to be a lazy gardener(and I am!)

I've had a lot of people who have tried to have a SFG using all the points you brought up. They used a grid, they knew the spacing, they knew all the vertical gardening tips, they learned about how easy it is to protect, etc. And every time they failed, it all came back to the soil-without exception. I don't know how you get around that. When MB teaches in a 3rd world country they don't have peat moss or vermiculite, so he teaches them how to make compost. They have to wait a long time to produce it, but they eventually get it. Their gardens are 100% compost and they work very well. It's a heavier mix and you do have the time factor. I liked the comment by japus-"that feeling working in the mix was fantastic." And look at that garden-it looks perfect and my guess is it will be a great success.

For me it all comes down to a few simple things that make gardening so much easier. 1)Build a box. 2)Fill it with Mel's mix. 3)Put a grid on it, and 4)Start planting. As I commented on earlier, Mel's mix has become way too expensive. I have been experimenting on a new "mix" that might be pretty good while still maintaining most of the benefits of the original mix without such a steep price tag.

Oh well, thanks for listening back. I didn't take your remarks as either offensive or argumentative. You and I are just two friendly gardeners who have a difference of opinion on something we love to do. The fact is that you and a whole host of others on this site probably know a lot more than I do about gardening. I just wanted to keep it simpler, that's all....

Also meant to mention that your idea of classifying plants as fruit, leaf and root really helped me plan this year's garden with a view to crop rotation. It really does make it easy.