Conventional gardening will typically out-produce sfg, no biggie. You might want to increase your watering just a bit...

EG

Did you add fert to your soil mix?

Dan

I did.. I used a manure mix from teh local farm supply. good or bad?

Did you plant the lettuces the same distance apart as your husband did? Lettuce grown at 4" spacing will be smaller than lettuce grown at 6" spacing.

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

IMHO I doubt typical manure mix is high enuf in N nor is it guaranteed it is immediately available to the plant. And I have the same question as granny.

Nonetheless, manures are good for tilth and structure and increasing WHC etc., but their nutrient content is rarely better than supplemental fert. If your DH fert'ed and all you did was what you wrote above, it is no wonder to me why his plants are bigger. Side dress with your preferred granular fert (not slow release) for leaf veggies (higher first number in analysis).

Dan

What is the depth of your SFG? I have grown both in ground and in SFG and have been able to get the sizes to be somewhat close by increasing my depth (my boxes are a minimum of 10 inches in depth and some are 12 to 14 inches) and giving the plants a little more space, if 9 spinach are recommended per square, I plant 4. I figure plants are like people, if they have room to grow, they will.

Also are you using 5 different types of compost (including your own fresh compost?) - this really makes a difference since your SFG will not be able to get any nutrients that may exist naturally in the ground. A mix of store bought and fresh compost is also going to make a difference especially if you want to follow the method and not use any fertilizer.

Thanks goki! Not sure if I'm using 5.. I'm using mels mix (from last year) plus I added a compost from the local farm supply - it is 1/2 horse manure - 1/2 vegetable & wood chip compost.

hmm, I think mine is only about 6 inches.. which I didn't realize until just going to measure it. :-( Is that not deep enough? I wish I new your method before, I planted by the guidelines... so 4 lettuce in one square.

I also have a strawberry pot (outside of my sq ft garden) and some of the leaves are a reddish orangey color. Anyone know what that's about?

Maybe, but he needed twice the space to grow his bigger lettuce. I grow only leaf lettuce so I don't let it get that big.

It's kinda like the single vine tomato. You get far less per plant but tons more per SF. To each their own.

You're welcome,

Experience has been my teacher with regards to the size of the crops. I understand what you're saying sinfonian but I like to get as much as possible out of every seed so that the space is still not "wasted". One option for your 6 inch box is just to add another 6 inch box (without a bottom) on top of it. Since the hardware stores do not really sell lumber with 6 inches (it is usually cut smaller 5 3/4 inches depth) you will end up with a box that is approximately 11 inches in depth. I also like to leave an inch off the top to protect my seedlings from wind (this may of course be particular to my home). Given that the soil is loose, the wind can sometimes be too small for the seedlings. So again, in your case, I would end up with 10 inches of soil, one inch off of the top and plenty of room for your plants to grow.

What is your hubby's spacing? Is it 6 inches like yours?

Personally, I don't think going with a straight Mel's mix is necessarily ideal. My soil is actually quite good (high in minerals) and these are the minerals that many plants need to be as nutritious and vigorous as possible. If you want to use Mel's mix as the top 6 inches that's great, but I still think that the roots should have access to the bottom. Is there a weed barrier between your box and the soil? If so, that might also explain the difference.

In my own humble opinion (certainly not an expert on SFG, and haven't done it nearly as long as most here), I would say that the boxes should NOT be baracaded from having access to the deeper soil. When making the boxes, place cardboard or newspaper down to suppress the weeds/grass where you are placing the box. (The more weeds or the more persistent the weeds you have, you may want to consider a double layer of cardboard or a thicker layer of newspaper.) Then you can put the Mel's Mix on top of that. This gives you the same friable soil that Mel always espouses, while still offering the plants the OPTION of going deeper, if they choose (obviously not until the newspaper/cardboard breaks down). I think your plants will do what works best for them. If they need different minerals, they will seek them out and go deeper. If they don't need them, they won't. You shouldn't have too much trouble with weeds, even with having the box open on bottom, AND you will make access for earthworms to get into your box. WORMS ARE YOUR BEST FRIENDS!

I second what eagles wrote. The more soil available, the more soil moisture available. And Mel's mix is lacking in nutrients at first until you work it enough. My raised veggie bed is 14-32 inches high, and we forked amendments in another foot below that and double-dug as well, and in summer I'm glad I have all that volume available for moisture.

Dan

But, Mels mix is 33% organic material. How can that be lacking in nutrients? Thats going to be a lot more than most traditional gardens. If roots dont need to go down to find the nutrients they need, then the 6-8 inches should be fine-which is why SFG crops have a more shallow root system. I have grown mine in 6", well, maybe I should say 8" every year and I get tons of lettuce all the time. I guess I dont know why people get varied results using Mels mix. The proof is in the pudding. You can take a peek at mine if your intersted.

Mel's Mix is 66% NO nutrients. The nutrients have to come 100% from compost. The problem is that not all compost is created equal! The compost can ONLY contain the nutrients that are present in the materials being composted. If you compost leaves, that contain little to no calcium, then the compost will have little to no calcium. So, if your mix is low in calcium, and you add compost that is low in calcium, your mix continues to be low in calcium.

I think that is one of the main reasons for differences in results. Also, that is why Mel suggests the initial compost come from up to 5 sources, rather than a single source.

Leaf crops are relatively heavy feeders of N. If it is one year old MM + the compost as described above, then I suspect there is not enuf N in the soil at present for the lil' guys to be as happy as they could be. For example, this year after last harvest we are cover cropping with a family-approved legume to till under for sufficient N for next year.

Plus, we still don't know whether the DH fertilized his plants/rototilled in amendments/cover cropped with clover then tilled it under...etc. We have not been able to examine the comparative practices to answer the original question. We have, I suspect, illuminated some issues for the OP to reflect upon however.

Dan

No nutrients? Wow-I guess Ive been a lucky SFG'er for 9 years now just following the rules. I couldn't tell you if I am high or low in N because I have never done a soil test. And, I probably never will. And, my compost is made up of 15 or 20 different things. I do agree that not all compost is created equal. Cow manure? What they ate and what they were bedded in-2 whopping ingredients and certainly not enough to do much. That is the reason Mels says to use at least 5 different ingredients. The more, the merrier...

Snibb,

Yes, no nutrients are found in vermiculite or peat moss. They are, however, 2/3 of the total mix (~66%). If you don't get the nutrients you need out of the compost, the other ingredients will not help your plants. They are they for water retention/drainage and aeration. They do not "feed" your plants at all. I believe a natural fertilizer (in addition to the 'trowel full of compost') should be used regularly, especially for heavy feeders, like most veggies.

Eagle...Im with you, I understand what you say. But, I guess I could have come in and said that most gardens have 90+% NO nutrients, which generally speaking, would be true. The SFG mix really is much better than most normal soils that people try to garden with. I think you know what I mean. The original compost I put in had 9 or 10 things in it, not just your basic "manure."

Wow! I have gotten such great information from this convo! Thanks everyone!!!

My hubby used the same compost I did for my garden, ut his is mixed with the ground soil.. I fear that something may be wrong with the soil, since both the broccolli (in the box) and the strawberry pot (outside of the box, but same soil) bot have some of the older leaves a reddish color.. the strawberry's red leaves also have a tinge of yellow on some of them.

also, is there anything you can put on TOP of the soil, that wil give it this nitrogen it needs, like eg shells, or peanut husks, or someting?

thanks again for al the advice, I REALLY appreciate it!!

n

On top of the soil. UCGs, Diluted urine, guano, alfalfa meal, cotton seed meal, kelp meal or fish emulsion often sold together.

I really don't see the 5 types of compost as necessary if using home made compost. I know that my compost was made from a lot of different ingredients. Besides horse manure and OPBL and last years garden clean up making a bulk I also had at least 100 different ingredients from all of my kitchen scraps.

For more ideas of ferts try the bottom of this page

And contrary to some peoples statements of no ferts required if soil is healthy I will be fertilizing this year and all of the years I garden to insure all nutrients needed are made available to make sure my family is getting the most nutrition per calorie. I will use organic ferts.

Here is a link that might be useful: Steve Solomons Organic Gardener's Composting CH8

also, is there anything you can put on TOP of the soil, that wil give it this nitrogen it needs, like eg shells, or peanut husks, or someting?

Your latest symptom description reinforces my feelings of N deficiency. Blood meal is a good way to add N, and we use an organic formulation at our house to ward off evil bunnies of doooooom! that has a 12-0-0 formulation that should be enuf for the lettuce but not too much. Use less for strawberries.

Garden soil in pots is problematic and you'll continue to have trouble if you choose to continue this practice (AIUI from your comments). Pots need potting soil.

Dan

snibb,

I do agree with you...my points are two fold - #1, by leaving the box open on bottom, you allow plants that prefer deep roots to "stretch their legs" as much as they want, and #2, by leaving the box open, your soil is available to the plants IF you have a deficiency of a particular nutrient, that the plant requires.

n,

Getting back to the topic...I would suggest any amendment you use be water soluble, otherwise it will just sit on the surface and not be available to the plants' roots. You can also use a fish emulsion spray with foliar feeding.

woo, that's a lot of info... that uh, I don't understand! HA!! LOL! Ok, trying to figure out what to put on top of the soil... something water soluble:

don't know what 12-0-0 formulation is? Is that the brand of the blood meal thingy? what is blood meal?

" UCGs, Diluted urine, guano, alfalfa meal, cotton seed meal, kelp meal or fish emulsion often sold together" Are al these things sold together, or just the fish emulsion?

What is fish emulsion?

and a foliar feeder?

help!?

Used Coffee Grounds 2-0-0 I think that's what the starbucks sticker says.

Fish emulsion is a liquid product often mixed w/ kelp meal, high in N and lots of trace minerals. There are threads (I think in the Soil/Compost forum) about making it yourself. I'm making all kinds of fermented vegetable concoctions, but I think the fish might stink a bit much.

Foliar feeding is using a hose end sprayer, or a pump sprayer, back pack sprayer, or even just a spray bottle to apply a diluted fertilizer or compost tea directly on the foliage of your plants.

Come hang out w/ us in the soil/compost forums for a few days, it'll blow your mind. Especially if you search some of the BIM threads out.

Here is a link that might be useful: I love the internet.. really it's on topic

>>>don't know what 12-0-0 formulation is? Is that the brand of the blood meal thingy? what is blood meal?

12-0-0 is the concentration of nutrients, N-P-K. The first number is Nitrogen concentration, the second is Phosphorus, and the last number is potassium. In your case, look for something with a high N number (the first one). Blood meal is a type of organic fertilizer. There are many brands available, but blood meal is the product. (Just like there are more types of tissues than just "Kleenex".) It is basically dried blood. It's a very good fertilizer for leafy greens, because what you are looking for is foliage! It's not a great idea to use exclusively though, for any type of fruiting veggie. They produce great vegetation, but won't fruit much, that would require a higher P and K number. BTW, all fertilizers are rated according to their concentrations of N-P-K. A number like 10-10-10 means equal concentrations of each. 5-5-5 is also equal concentration, but half the strength of 10-10-10. High N fertilizers can BURN your plants if given in too high a concentration, but typically, organics won't. HOWEVER, they do take a little more time for the nutrients to be readily available to your plants.

>>>" UCGs, Diluted urine, guano, alfalfa meal, cotton seed meal, kelp meal or fish emulsion often sold together" Are al these things sold together, or just the fish emulsion?

You'll have to look into this on your own, I'm not as knowledgeable about all organic products and how they are sold, merely how they work.

>>>What is fish emulsion?

Fish emulsion is liquified fish, basically, diluted. Very good for plants. Kelp or seaweed are nice as well, if you are a little squimish about the fish! BTW, you can't tell, but it will have a bit of an odor. Either way you go, you will purchase a concentrated liquid and need to dilute according to manufacturer's directions.

>>>and a foliar feeder?

Spray directly onto the plants leaves. This is very good for your situation, because the nutrients will be readily absorbed by the leaves themselves and be immediately available for them, no need for movement through the plant. This also ensures that the feeding you give the plants definitely goes directly TO the plant. Lower waste. Do this with plenty of time for the plants to dry out before night fall though. Also, it's not recommended to be done during midday. CAUTION: Not all fertilizer is designed for foliar feeding. Fish emulsion or kelp is though. If your not sure if it is ok to use as foliar DON'T!!!

>>>help!?

I hope this gives you a little more background.

ok, thanks y'al! Well, I have used coffee grounds.. or can make some.. (umm, I need a cup anyways! HA!) and I have some kelp powder. Would those work? I'll look it up too, but just asking if anyone here knows?

So, can I get like the UCG from the coffe maker at work (they throw this stuff away 2-3 times a day) and just sprinkle it around the base of my plants (lettuce & spinach)?

Can I make a foliar spray from a brewing of the UCG?

Wow, this seems so easy/cheap?

You don't want to foliar feed w/ coffee.

I don't drink coffee but pick up 10-50lbs a week from starbucks. They have a grounds for garden program that is free, usually a bucket by the door. If no bucket just wait in line and ask - later in the day is better.

ngabriel, the kelp powder and ucg will work for leafy plants.

I use UGC mostly in my compost piles and on top of my lawn. I will side dress my corn and lettuces w/ it this year.

well, thank you all so much everyone! A few days ago, I got some high nitrogen fertilizer (16-0-0) and some general fertilizer ( 6-7-7) , I put both of those in the soil where they were needed. You should see the difference already! The plants are loving it! Today, I sent hubby to get some used grounds from starbucks.. We got a whole bag full! I put that on top as well, and watered it in.. although I didn't have to do too much watering, since it's been raining for DAYS!!! :-( I hope my plants don't DROWN!!

Excellent news.

Dan