ribbit - I went to your post and looked at the photos....everything looked fine then. Are your boxes constructed of 1x6's or 1x8's ? If it's 1x6's, it looks like your boxes only have around 4 inches of soil in them. If it's 1x8's, then you would probably have 5-1/2" of soil, it looks like. Please forgive me if these questions sound ignorant, but i'm only trying to help you determine if the soil depth is the problem. As far as the landscaping fabric goes - let me first say, that you're gonna be glad that you installed it. Anyway....I put fabric in the bottom of mine, and I had the same questions that you have about the root growth of the various plants. Of course, a person really can't tell -until they remove the entire plants....And that's just what I did. While removing the plants from the summer garden, I paid close attention to the roots of all vegetables. What I found out was - the roots can't penetrate the fabric, so instead of growing down...they grow out. I had an okra plant that had roots grown horizontally by at least 6 ft. Of all 70 something various plants that were removed, only 2 had penetrated the fabric. It was just a pin hole, though. I will help you all that I can, but there are plenty of others that are more qualified.

EG

HI EG!!!! Thank you so much for the confidence. The timbers are actually 2*8. For some reason those were less expensive than the 1*8 lengths.

Things still don't look terrible in the sqft'er. As a matter of fact, the plants still look amazingly healthy, just much, much smaller than the ones I put in containers. The leaves and stem of the broccoli in the pots are much, much larger and thicker. Wondering if it's a good things come to those who wait perspective or what.....

Actually, just had another thought. I'm so careful about watering the sqft'er that I use a milk jug and just get the water at the base of the plant and a little thereabouts. I actually water the area around the plants in the containers. It's just a thought....you made me think that the extended roots....if there are any....may not be getting what they need.

Yes, you definitely do want to water the "feeder roots" on the plants. These are the tiny roots & root hairs wending their way through the planting medium, seeking out water and nutrients to send back to the mother plant.

So be more liberal with the water distribution, and maybe add some kelp or compost in solution every week or so?

I was also disappointed with some of my results in the 6 inches of soil that Mel recommends in the latest edition of his book, so for my fall "salad greens" SFG, I've gone to approx. 10 to 12 inches of soil (2"x12" boards). Will report back later--a few months from now.

in el cerrito

I agree. I think the container plants are getting more water, because there's more soil mass.

EG

I think a lot of us have decided the deeper soil makes sense. I put my beds over sod, with no weed barrier, but I killed out all growth with Roundup long before I had the boxes built...I'm hoping the sod has rotted by now, and my plant roots can go as deep as they want. I haven't yet pulled anything out of my beds to see how deep the roots have gone.

I, too, think you need to be more thorough with the watering.

Granny

Granny - I second that. I'm so glad that I chose 8" boards instead of 6".

Ribbit - since we're discussing watering the fall crop, I'll tell you what I did for mine. Because some of the seedlings are very tiny, (turnips, collards, carrots) I fill a 2 gallon pump up sprayer with water, and use it on the "spray" setting to liberally spray the bed. It works fantastic!

EG

And you might want to put some really weak fertilizer in that sprayer. Miracle grow or whatever, at quarter strength every time you water, just for a little boost. Or use a watering can and thoroughly drench the plants. Maybe make a bit of a basin around them to hold the water.

Granny

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

Thanks! The do have that basin, but like I said, it's the only thing getting the water. I'm glad I went with the 8 in. boards, but I still can't shake the deeper could be better thoughts....

I'm going to give it until tomorrow to water again. I'll try watering around the plant instead of watering the plant this time around and see where that gets me.

Since we're on the subject, what do you do with your mulch on top of your soil come next spring?? Do you just turn it under and say, Have at it, or do you try to remove it the best you can. You can see in those first pictures one bed was mulched while the other wasn't. The man went and got some eucalyptus mulch and spread it there on one of the beds to see if I liked it....I didn't know if that kind was okay to turn under or just brush away.
Thoughts?

ribbit - I don't use any mulch, even though I know that I should.

EG

I don't use mulch on my beds, either, just the paths between the beds. I don't know anything about eucalyptus mulch, but IF I had mulched my beds, I would turn it under in the fall to (hopefully) decompose. I am hoping, but not keeping my fingers crossed, that my daughter doesn't have her baby before the neighbor's sycamore trees drop their leaves all over our yard! That's so I can shred them and add them to my beds. If that doesn't happen, I'll try to get the neighbors to save me a few bags and I'll shred them next spring and use them for mulch.

Now, having said that, I went back and looked at your photos and see it is a shredded bark mulch. I think I would just leave that on the top and pull it back to plant.

OK, studying your photos further...there is NO mulch around your romaine and radishes, and those are the ones doing well. Does that give us a clue that it may be the eucalyptus mulch that is the culprit? Why don't you just remove it now and give those plants a dose of half strength liquid fertilizer and see what happens.

When I had a big garden, I would always do my soil prep in the fall. First the cleanup, then a thick layer of chopped leaves sprinkled with a high nitrogen granular fertilizer (usually the same one I used on my lawn) and then an inch of composted manure. I'd let it sit all winter, then till it under in the spring. I had beautiful soil (basically on a sand dune), and a beautiful garden! But the "lasagna" gardens just leave everything in layers, so whatever works best for you is what is best.

Granny

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

Well, Granny, the pictures are a bit misleading....Pictures were taken before the mulch was added to the second bed. It's there now and has been since the afternoon that first picture was taken. Just as a point of reference, the mulch is also in all of the containers as well, which are doing so nicely . The GA sun can be BRUTAL and since school began again, I knew I wouldn't have the time to dedicate to full time gardening and thought some sort of mulch would work. Not quite sure it's the culprit, but I'm certainly going to try watering the entire square and not just the plant this next go around. I'm sure that would mean watering fiercely to get past the mulch. I'll give it a try and see how it goes. I'm thinking of brushing off whatever mulch I can and turning the rest under.

Ahhh...decisions, decisions. :)
Rib.

Well, darn...now we have to find another culprit ;-)

Does eucalyptus mulch smell like Vicks? LOL!!!

Granny

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

I, too, think depth is very important and could be the issue, but you won't know for absolute sure unless you're watering thoroughly the entire area in the SFG. I'm also very glad I'm choosing deep beds. In my case they are 12" high, but the soil settles down quite a bit from what I'm noticing.

EG writes: "While removing the plants from the summer garden, I paid close attention to the roots of all vegetables. What I found out was - the roots can't penetrate the fabric, so instead of growing down...they grow out."

Wow, is that interesting... Neat to see that they really do work well without having to drive down to the soil beneath.

Granny - You planted over sod, so I'm dying to know if you had many weeds. I know the main reason for the fabric is to prevent weeds. I'm trying to plan my own next beds for the spring, so this would be very helpful info.

Ribbit - I wouldn't completely throw out the idea that the eucalyptus mulch is hurting things. Since container beds are usually deeper, they'd have less mulch per square foot than the SFG bed. The SFG would have a larger surface area, if you follow me here... the reason I'm still thinking it might have something to do with it is, because from what I've studied up on tree parts in or on your veggie soil, it steals nitrogen temporarily from the soil for a few seasons until the wood or bark decomposes, so it could potentially be part of the problem....

~Angela

Angela, I pulled one weed today and that's all. That's actually untrue...it wasn't even a weed, it was a volunteer potato plant from the kitchen waste I "planted" in that bed before I decided to actually try for a crop and put in seeds. If I'd recognized it for what it was (it was hiding in the beans) I'd have left it in there, and maybe got some baby potatoes from it.

No problem with weeds or grass, but I killed everything with Roundup before I built the beds, and then I lined them with thick layers of newspaper before I filled them.

My only "weed" problem is the mulberry tree seedlings that pop up all over the pathways...from the birds.

Granny

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

Angela - i'm glad the information about the roots versus the fabric was informative. That's the reason why I posted it. :)

EG

Ribbit, Did watering your SFG thoroughly help at all?

Lissa_Z, I haven't been home yet in the daylight to do it! I've left the house for work the past two days right around 5:45 AM and both last night and tonight I've gotten back at 8:30 PM which is too late to water. It's driving me crazy. Tomorrow I should be home at a more normal hour and get a chance to go down there to water and check things out.

I did flip on the flood lights and although I could barely see down to the sqft'er, I could see that things looked a bit better since I used the fertilizer on Sunday. At least that was I think I hope I saw... :) Now if I could just get my head lettuce to actually make a head and not look like a spider I'd be okay. Or wait, maybe I'm just in time for Halloween.

I'll get down there tomorrow and let you know how things look. I'll also water the WHOLE thing and not just the main plant and see how they go from there.

Thanks for asking!!!

Ribbit,

The reason I asked is that I had to water my whole garden this morning. I had been giving it the lick and promise, mostly because I've been waiting to plant my starts until after the 15th of this month. When I put the first one in this morning, I realized that the bottom of my beds was DRY...and I spent over an hour making sure that condition was fixed.

I thought about you while I was watering mine and came back in to ask about it. :)