i was reading on one of the forums earlier when i first started here. that a guy (who was handicapped) grew all of his stuff in big huge containers, and they turned out awesome!! i don't know what it is that does it. it must be the plastic vs the wood? i'd kinda like to hear how the sfg's turned out that used those kinda "woods" that arent real wood. they only look like wood. they are supposed to last for like 30 years or something like that. out of curiosity. ~Medo

Ribbit, I used untreated wood and everything grew just fine. I'm just scratching my head over your problems...I tended to blame your mulch, which could have robbed your soil of nitrogen while it was breaking down, plus may have attracted slugs or sow bugs that could have damaged your plants. The only other thing I can think of is the soil itself. I think you should have it tested.

Last spring in AZ I couldn't get anything to grow in containers, in sun or part shade, in Miracle Grow soil. I blamed the seed, but came home to WA and planted the same seed in the garden and it grew great. Some things just stump us, but I'm going to try again and I think you should too.

Granny

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Kitchen Garden

They've all gotten the same watering and the same fertilizing.

If your SFG is sitting with direct contact with the sand/coral, I would think the drainage is much more efficient than the containers. Also if your box is 4 X 4Â X 6" and your containers hold one cubic ft of soil, you would need at least eight times the water in the containers and probably more because of the increased drainage.

John

I don't know about the cause! I have no ideas, lol. On John's thoughts on watering, are you seeing any pooling? The soil mix in sfg is supposed to be exactly what they ask for in planters, lol. I don't know if the mulch is causing this, but I do know that if the containers work for you and the sfg doesn't, you should at least consider a full container garden next year. Maybe you could put one of your containers in one square foot? I'm just thinking if I were in your shoes, I'd be looking to make a more serious change to the method. Does that make sense?

ribbit - you won't have to scrap your plans, or waste your money....because we will collectively help you fix this problem.
Every problem has a solution, we just have to gather the right information. Let's look at the data available so far...
1. Your watering practices are identical
2. It is the same soil mixture
3. The amount of sunlight is favorable in both locations
4. The treated wood isn't the problem...if it were, 75% of the people on this forum would have the same problems.
5. I think we discussed earlier, that there was probably more soil mass per plant in the containers, versus in the sfg. That's something to think about......
6. You say that some of the leaves are shredded in the sfg, but not in the containers....that should be looked at very hard. It sounds like harmful pests to me.
I can tell you that I have collards planted about 50 feet away from each other - and one planting is perfect, while the other one is being attacked viciously by something. There is something that is present in your sfg, that is not in the containers.
For instance...take your container plants - each one has it's own little happy, isolated growing area, and doesn't know any different. Whatever is introduced into the soil of the container, is the only things that it is subjected to, whether it be water, fertilizer, or pests. I would say that the likelihood of more pests being present in the sfg are much higher, because that's their natural habitat.

EG

Ribbit, have you pulled up any of the plants to examine the root system? Try it, and see if the roots look healthy, or if they are dry, matted, eaten off, rotted, etc.

Granny

Don't worry...I'm not giving up that easily; I just want to make sure that I can fix a situation while I can.

Granny, I would say it was the mulch, but the same mulch is in the pots. I can't risk pulling at this time as it's only 2 3x3 spaces and if I pull anything, I'm almost guaranteed of getting nothing. However, I did pull out the romain that had bolted and those roots looked fine.

EG, I do believe the size of the plants are directly attributed to the soil mass and possibly the faster drainage as John said. I'm hopeful that they will just be delayed in producing. However, it seems that everything in those two boxes is being damaged somehow. Now, even my newest cabbage leaves (red cabbage)are turning almost a neon green. The older ones are still pockmarked.

I gave it a bit more thought, and here are other things I've thought of....I've seen that rotten lizzard/salamander/whatever it is down there several times. I thought he could be chewing the leaves, but there are lizzards everywhere and they're not getting the other plants. I pulled two earwigs out, one from the lettuce and another from way inside a cabbage plant, but other than those, no pests.

Then, I realized as I was picking acorns out of the beds again (a daily activity) that this SFG is underneath an oak tree. It's not directly underneath the base, but the limbs overhang. Could there be something that the oak is leeching into the soil that the broccoli/cabbage don't like? The SFT is sitting on landscaper fabric, but then on the ground....

Thoughts?

ribbit - I don't think that the oak tree has anything to do with it. Granny and John have made very good points. I really think a pest of some kind could be in your sfg, and is underneath the plants - possibly feeding on the roots, like Granny said. Have you seen any white fringed beetles? I have seen tons of them this year, and would think they would be well suited for your neighboring state as well. They are known to attack over 400 varieties of plants, and their larvae overwinter in the ground - while feeding on root vegetables. In my opinion, the only way to figure it out is to take each possibility, and check it thoroughly. Once satisfied, simply go to the next possibility. You will eventually find it. I wish I could help you more....

EG

I have a problem with grubs in a bed that's near the pine trees, and I've never been able to grow any type of shrubs there. The grubs eat the roots and kill every type of shrub I've tried..from boxwood to euonymus to junipers. I tried treating the area with everything known to man, but never could get rid of them. Now I just fill that bed with violets, as they don't seem to be bothered by anything, but next spring I really want a change and will try some annuals. So you might have something similar. BTW, earwigs did a lot of damage to the green peppers I had planted in with my flowers. The leaves got all curled up and puckered, but they all survived it.

Granny

Hmmm...
Ok, I'll either pull something up this afternoon or I'll dig deep enough around it to see what's going on. I'll call it "in the interest of science." That should make me feel better about it. I'll sacrifice the saddest looking of them all.

Would a soil pest play favorites? I have dill, leeks and onions in those beds that are looking beautiful. BTW, anyone want the dill when the season's over? The boy wanted to plant it b/c it looked furry. We won't ever make use of it and I assume it will transport well.

Yes, some pests that reside in the soil will play favorites. It's there...you just have to find it.

EG

I couldn't bring myself to sacrifice the cabbage or broccoli like I thought I could, but I did dig the dirt out around it enough to get a good look at the roots...

They're beautiful. Nothing seems to be eating them from beneath, but I did find some more of those earwigs in the soil and a daddy long legs scurried out from beneath a leaf.

I'm becoming more and more convinced it's the lizzard and his kin. I tried to kill a tomato plant in a pot on my porch several weeks ago. It was diseased, so I cut it off at the base to wait until the man could help me take the pot and soil off of the porch (I have Bert and Ernie arms). Well, the darn thing refused to die and it sprouted anew and disease free, so I let it grow. Long story short, but something got up on the porch and chewed off the top of the plant. He/she didn't leave a tell-tale slime trail. It was a quick and easy in and out. It did play around with the leaves and leave them scattered around.

I'm starting to think squirrel, raccoon, that lizzard....We have a coyote running around here, but he hasn't yet seemed to get inside the fence, so I'll dismiss him as the culprit, but the squirrel, raccoon or lizzard are good guesses. Hmmmm....where did I put that shotgun?

Side note, EG, how's your daughter doing?

ribbit - she is doing the same......Can you take some more pictures of the damage/condition of your plants? I hate to ask, but really don't know anything to tell you right now....

EG

Sorry to hear that, EG. I do hope she'll get to doing better soon.

Tried to go out today to take those pictures, but it was raining so I don't know how they'll come out. Here's one from above....you can really see how worn the boxes have become...remember, I just put them out the first of September! You can see the broccoli leaves chewn up from up here!

Here are the broccoli in the pots in the front yard. Even two to a pot, they're looking great!

Here are the cabbage and broccoli from the SFG. You can see the chewn leaf in the cabbage shot and the discoloration and chewn leaves of the broccoli. The leaves aren't rubbery anymore, but rather crispy

Noticed today that the broccoli on the deck right above the SFG is also getting discolored and eaten:

There are no bugs to speak of. No little green worms etc. I cleared out a ton of soil in the sfg and the only bug that seems to be everywhere is the earwig. I may just have to leave well enough alone and see if something won't come of it.

ribbit - the earwig is your only problem.

EG

I think you're right. That last one I found was looking rather fat and happy.

*sigh* more bugs.
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more...

Now I see why people plant crazy numbers of things. It's not to have something to eat, it's to have something left over in case everything else gets eaten by the bugs!! :)

ribbit - the best way to deal with them is to make a beer trap, and bait it before dark. Dig a small hole just big/deep enough that the top of an empty tuna or cat food can is even with the top of the ground. Pour beer into it until there is about 1/2" of beer in there. Check it out the next morning, and I think you'll be surprised. Of course....a big infestation requires more than one trap to get quick results. Kill 'em all!!!!! (Hey...that's the name of a Metallica album.....)

EG

Here are the primary methods of controlling earwigs & sowbugs so that they remain helpful scavangers & leaf-mold manufacturers rather than plant eaters:

1) Both earwigs & wood louses need moist tight areas to persist. Sweeping up wood mulches, getting rid of wood piles, & general clean-up, gives them fewer places to hide & breed. Also keep compost piles away from the main gardens.

2) Avoid pesticides & encourage a natural balance of insects with increasing numbers of predator insects. If you must use pesticides, do not permit the pesticides to come in contact with the garden, where beneficial insects will be the first killed, & harmful insects will be the first to bounce back. Take small milk cartons (or similar waterproof carton) & poke holes in the sides with pencil. Bait the box with bran & oatmeal or cream of wheat -- mixed with a powdered insecticide which states explicitely that it can kill earwigs. This is not the most recommended because ants & other insects may disperse the poisoned bait into the garden, but I know that toxin-reliant gardeners need to wean themselves & it's hard for them to go cold turkey, so the bait-box method is a bridging technique to going fully organic.

3) Encourage birds, which eat earwigs as though they were candy. Also encourage frogs & toads if you're in an area where that is possible.

4) Place a half-inch or an inch of cooking oil in a pop-can or a jar, & sink the jar halfway in the ground or lay the can on its side with the key-hole spout upward so the oil won't run out. Oily tunafish cans or catfood cans are short enough they wouldn't have to be sunk in the ground at all. Earwigs can climb glass & metal very easily, & will be interested in the odor of the oil. They will drown themselves by the hundreds in the half-inch of oil, which you will have to clean out every three or four days. You will know the first morning how well it's working.

5) Earwigs seek cover by daylight. Place two-foot-long scraps of soaker hoses around the bases of plants that have shown signs of earwig attack. Every morning, empty the earwigs out of the lengths of hose into vinegar or soapy water (the common recommendation to just drown them is folly; they can live underwater for half a day, & can climb out any time they want. Gilled sowbugs can survive underwater for several days, & leave at will).

6) Or, lightly dampen loose rolls of newspapers & place those near plants that are at risk. At dawn the earwigs will take cover in the newspaper rolls, which can daily be tightly wrapped in plastic grocery bags & discarded.

7) Plant Purple Pitcher Plants (Sarracenia purpurea ) in a boggy sun-garden. This is a prostrate pitcherplant & it catches primarily sowbugs but also beetles & earwigs. Each pitcher will be contain a huge amount of ground-crawling insects, but primarily sowbugs. Cobra Lily (Darlingtonia californica) is also good at catching earwigs, & will usually live in harmony with the purple pitcher plants though the cobra is more aggressive in its spread. Most other pitcherplants lift their pitchers high & catch flying insects rather than sowbugs or earwigs.

EG, more like "And Justice for All"....or rather not all, but just me.....and since we're on the topic, there will only be "One" left. I'd go as far as to say they'd be spending the rest of their days in the "Garage inc." however I don't think they'll even make it that far once I get ahold of them. I'd go more modern Metallica, but I think they sold out after the 90's. I've heard the newest album is pretty good, but I'm not yet convinced to try it.

Don't know if you saw it or not, but go back to the OT Overdue post and see the shirt I made the baby girl. She was headbanging to an ACDC song and I got inspired.

Granny! You're a wealth of knowledge. I'm going to try to eradicate the majority of those boogers tonight using some of those methods!!! THANKS!

let us know how it comes out....when you become the "master of puppets" in your garden.

EG

If those methods don't work, you could try "Cyanide". By the time you get through, those bugs will be at "The End Of The Line", completely "Broken, Beat & Scarred"!

BTW....don't thank me, ribbit. Google is my friend ;-)

Granny

Heh...I love this forum.

Ok.....I went out to my garden last night with a flashlight, and found 1 earwig. That's it. But! I did find 4 big, juicy black widow spiders.....yeah....They're toast tomorrow. That's 12 so far this year........Looks like it's almost time to build my homemade flamethrower.

EG

Son-in-law found a huge slug in the sprinkler control box yesterday (he came over and blew out our underground system to winter-proof it, good boy!) I hadn't seen a single slug, no slime trails, no slug damage this year. When my garden was right off the back patio, I was always fighting slugs...it seems to stay more moist there. This was my first year with not a single tomato horn worm. Very little leaf miner damage, just a bit on some beet leaves. Really, the only damage I had was from wind and birds!

Granny

ribbit32004, I do not think we really established that it is the same soil in both the SFG and the containers. I think most people use a commercial potting mix for there containers and Mels mix for the SFG. That would be critical to your comparison of the two systems. In addition, the health and insect resistance would be dependant on the soil among other things.

John

Ribbit, If I may chime in. Have you noticed any microscopic "snow" flying around your brassicas? I have just realized what has been messing with my brussel sprouts and cabbages...white fly. When I go to pick my sprouts, a cloud of teeny weeny "things" fly in the air. If you look really closely before disturbing the plant, they are itsy bitsy teeny weeny white moths. About the size of a pinhead. Apparently they suck the sap out of the plants. Hence, the motled discoloration. They also excrete something that causes some sort of leave mold. Hence the curled up edges. The excretion also attracts ants (they farm them) and grasshoppers which chew the living daylights out of the leaves. Hence the holes. And the worst part...apparently there is no recourse for ridding white fly. Aint life swell? Good luck with your scientific journey.
Fanfortony

John, you're right. It would make a difference, but in this case, everything has potting mix, even the SFG. It was on hand and on sale. Hopefully I may get closer to the mix with the next boxes, but not in these.

Fanfortony, there is the occasional white fly. Nothing crazy and never more than 1 at any given time. Could be adding to the earwig issue.

Hopefully I can still get something out of it!