Please, I don't mean to discourage you, but the simple truth is that in our zone, even if the GH is to be triple pane glazed and super insulated around and below, you would have to literally fill it to the brim with compost to generate enough heat to allow you to grow in winter.

For such a small GH, you would be far better off lining the interior with heavy bubble wrap and wrapping it in a clear solar pool cover for winter, then just run a small heater.

Insulate well enough, including the ground and the perimiter and the cost of operating a small heater will be pretty low, and you will have all of your limited space available for growing plants instead of a using it all up with a pile of compost.

Thanks for the comments birdwidow,I probably should have included more information... I don't expect to heat the GH with compost alone, it would be in addition to a small heater and some thermal mass elements. In the winter we mainly plan on growning some hardy vegetables, and the GH is meant to extend our growing season by a few months. We are planning on keeping the GH just above freezing most of the winter. As far as insulation, the north wall and north roof will be conventionally framed and insulated (R-13), and the foundation will be insulated with 2" of rigid insulation. I have read taht compost will provide some heat, and I just wanted to get peoples ideas. Thanks again,

About mid way down this article: http://ersson.sustainabilitylane.com/composti.htm

and more info from the same people with some pics: http://ersson.sustainabilitylane.com/greenhse.htm

I wonder though if 6x10 would be large enough? But as an addition to regular fossil heat, maybe so.
~tom

Ah, that will make a difference, but I'm still not convinced that the sheer bulk of compost you would need to keep the ambient air temp in even that well insulated little GH above freezing in our climate would be worth the loss of usable space. I could be wrong of course, but from -0 to +32 is a lot to ask of a pile of compost.

However, regardless of what you do about heat, do look into solar pool covers. With such a small area to wrap, it would be a pretty cheap means of considerably increasing the insulation around the glass or polycarb portions of your GH. Couple that with bubble inside and you would very likely be able to keep the GH well above freezing with just a low watt milk house heater plugged into a thermostat plug. A small fan on low speed mounted up on the ceiling, aimed down would help too.

BTW: Temp aside: Using no supplimental overhead lights, I have a huge gardenia and baskets of sun loving annuals blooming their heads off in a GH glazed in 6 ml. double wall polycarb, lined in extra heavy weight 1" bubble and wrapped in a heavy clear solar pool cover. (Diamond Clear) It's amazing how much bright difussed light penetrates through it all, even in the dead of a Chicago area winter.

Birdwidow and Tom- thank you very much, great info. I'll definitely look into a solar pool cover for the winter. One of the benefits I was thinking of with the compost inside the GH was that it would decompose much quicker than outside. Birdwidow, that is great to know about your success without any supplemental light. I realize the limitations with my little GH, but for my needs I am trying to figure out ways to heat it without spending a lot and using a lot of energy for some luttuce and broccoli in the winter! Good suggestion on the fan, too. I was planning on installing a ceiling fan for that reason. My plan (right now, things can change very quickly), is to have some drums with water on the north wall below benches for thermal mass and for watering the plants, a compost bin (below a bench), well insulted walls, insulated concrete slab floor (for thermal mass), a steep roof pitch on the south side for the low winter sun angle, a ceiling fan and a small electric heater on a thermostat to keep it above freezing. I'll probably get a solar pool cover, too. Hopefully this will all work! In any case I am really excited about trying it.
Thanks again, I welcome all ideas and suggestions.

""""I'm still not convinced that the sheer bulk of compost you would need to keep the ambient air temp in even that well insulated little GH above freezing in our climate would be worth the loss of usable space..."

Why should it take up space? Why couldn't he dig 3 or so feet deep, like a small basement for his greenhouse? Make the middle floor removable so as to access the compost, and have vents in the flooring so the heat rises easily or use flooring that will absorb the heat. The permanent floor on the sides would be for his barrels on the north and shelving on the south. In addition to the compost, the trench that deep won't freeze. I'm rambling, but it seems like this idea could be worked on. I suppose the potential smell could be an argument, but compost done well doesn't smell. I'd use a lot of shredded material often to keep it heating up nice. He'd probably have to put a drain leading deeper to the outside in the bottom. ramble ramble ramble ~tom

Wildlife: Oh yes! By all means DO install a ceiling fan and if you put a roof vent over it, in summer, you can use it to pull cooler air up from the floor and out the vent. Buy only one rated for outdoor use, but they have become pretty common and cost little or no more than those made for inside. Buy the largest one you can fit. Needless to say, I'm a big fan- of ceiling fans. LOL.

tom: You don't need to convince me that the best design for a cheap and easy to heat/cool GH is a pit. You want natural heat mass? Try Planet Earth.

Birdwidow, I have always suspected you were a ceiling fan salesperson!!!!

Hey, he would get Co2 for the plants better too from the compost!
~tom

Great ideas! Now I am reconsidering my plan for pouring a concrete slab. I really like the idea of a central compost pit. I guess I could pour a concrete floor on the north 1/3 (where the potting bench, storage and water barrels would be), have the middle 1/3 as the compost pit/ trench with a removable wooden walkway, and the southern 1/3 could be open for planting (we had planed on having it open for a raised bed). This give me a lot to think about. I wonder how much heat it would generate if it were 2' wide 6'- 10' long and 2'-3' deep? It seems like that could be a huge amount of material. Thanks, this is great!

Perhaps the pit should be right in front of the door, so it could easily be shoveled out for use in the beds. I would prefer to see you have it wider than 2 feet. Minimun should be 3 feet wide. You can expect the center of a pile to be around 140 degrees when its cooking good. Stir it daily if you can. ~tom

Good thread here.

So we're throwing around the idea of a below floor compost pit for supplemental heat...

...the first thing I think Wildlife is going to need to find is a good orthopedic surgeon.

Seriously, I actively compost four 4x4' bins and just the very thought of doing that below ground level causes me to reach for the Aleve.

But to take this a little further, let's say that his pile is 140F. The ground temp is 55F, maybe even lower if it is near an uninsulated perimeter. His GH temp is perhaps 40-50F. Now the heat will rise, true, but there will be more pit surface area of the pit in contact with the ground than with the GH floor. So what I'm saying is that he may lose just as much heat into the ground as he will into the GH. So should he insulate this pit somehow?

I like the idea of using water containers for both thermal mass and watering. While you are at it, gutters for rainwater collection...best GH addition I ever made.

SB

The heat in a compost pile is greatest in the center, not on the edges. I believe the majority of heat will rise into the greenhouse, especially if he has a floor vent in the center, which he will need to keep oxygen access to a heating compost pile. I have no idea how rigid insulation would stand up to being against compost. However, another problem I do see is how does he keep a screen on the drain pipe from being clogged with compost run off (tea)?
~tom

Here's what I envision for your floor layout:
10 ea. 16" patio pavers instead of a poured concrete floor on the north, in case you change your mind.

4" of bare floor to support 30" metal grills like those that go over a floor furnace, over the 24" wide pit; 2' pit; 4" of bare floor. Leave a space unexcavated at the front end of the pit for stepping into the GH.

That leaves 2 feet for planting space along the south side, either in the ground or raised beds. Put a narrow shelf over the raised beds, about 4' off the ground, wide enough to hold a flat and a shelf along the east end. You should be able to put a shelf over the water barrels, too.

Now, how are you going to keep the compost stirred?

How, too, will you keep the water in your barrels stirred as well? We have a small pump that comes on with a timer, to circulate the water through the barrels as they are heating in the sun. The barrels are connected near the bottom with plastic hose with a large diameter, and a piece of regular garden hose to return the circulating water from the end barrel nearest the pump to the farthest one.

Nell

How about 16" pavers all around on all four sides, leaving just over 3 feet width for his basement? He really needs that 3 feet width for more effective composting.
~tom

You all are fantastic- thank you so much for sharing your time and expertise. This discussion has given me a lot to think about. I am thinking now about not having a concrete floor at all, and maybe the pavers that were suggested or brick on the north side and surrounding the compost dungeon. As far as the compost basement (need to come up with a good name for this), SB is right if it were 3' deep, that would be pretty tough on my wife to keep it turned (just kidding), I wonder if 2' would be adequately deep? I was thinking about making the pit (again, need a good name for this- compost furnace?) essentally an open bottom box- the sides would be 2x lumber, and insulted on the outside with 2" rigid foam (the foam would be against the ground [on the sides] and the wood against the compost. This would keep it really insulated and it would not loose much heat to the ground. The bottom would be open but set on top of 6" or so of gravel for drainage. I could put something like an expanded steel hinged top (like a trap door) that would allow a lot of ventalation, and allow it to be easily watered.
SB- I totally agree about the gutters and rain barrels- they are in the plans for the GH. I have 8 rain barrels on my house and shop and I absolutely love rain water harvesting. Even in a dry climate like here it is amazing how much water you can capture and use.
Thanks again!

wildlife:

If you are determined to dig and would just get off compost heaps long enough to think seriously about what you are planning, you might end up with what could well and truly be a near energy free GH, at least as far as H/C is concerned.

Once upon a time, most all GH's that were to be used to grow during winter in northern areas were pits. They didn't look very high when viewed from outside but were in fact, more or less basements, with glass roofs over them.

If you are really planning to excavate, why not just go down to at least 2 ft. BELOW our frost line, then trench for a center drain that you run out beyond the GH foundation, then line it all with the foam, pour the concrete you had planned to begin with, and what you construct over it could be clear on all sides, to catch the maximum light regardless of the season.

It will be cool in summer and very likely stay well above freezing all winter with little or no additional heat at all, let alone piles of compost, especially with a clear solar pool cover over it.

You might find that you will be able to actually USE all of the space in it to grow what you want, year round and not be limited to only cool weather plants at that.

DIY GH's are great and if a retiree wants to spend most of their time fiddling with one, continually adjusting piles of passive heat source, well and good, until the pain killers are no longer enough and the GH falls into disrepair because the old owner can no longer manage the backbreaking labor involved in operating it.

But if you work, or have other things in your life to take up your free time, you should think seriously about building a GH in which you can spend the majority of your time in it planting and growing, as opposed to playing the role of old fashoned full time building superintendent, down in the basement stoking the furnace, while the tenants sit upstairs in their parlors, relaxing in the warm.

Birdwidow- good points. I like the imagery you created. A solar pit is a little more digging and work than I had in mind, but your point is well taken. I guess this is the fun part about planning, it is easy and I can change my mind and crumple a piece of paper without any digging or pain killers.

We have been tinkering with the idea of compost heat for a while but due to messed-up knees, the physical work needs to be minimized. Also, since we need to make a modest living from selling our produce, we can only work on this a bit at a time. We are fortunate to have a 30 cubic yard truck deliver a load of hot material from a nearby stable about every four weeks.

In the fall we tried Compost Heater V1: A pile of hot compost running along the outside of a 70' hoophouse with the hope that a reasonable amount of heat would conduct through the house. As the pile was built we recorded as high as 150 degrees in the center of the pile. We wet the pile all the way to the plastic and hoped heat would conduct through the poly into the house. As we built the pile we noticed that pressure from the pile was causing the plastic to bulge so we reduced the pile and fiddled with installing some battens between the poly and the hoops. Meanwhile the pile had slumped to about half its original height and completely cooled so we made some modifications to the design for our next try.

In December we began Heater V2: We began building a pile along the north side of a 32' house with some changes. First we used wood battens on the outside of the pile and decided only to pile compost about two feet high along the wall. We built the pile in layers with 8" of compost followed by either a couple of inches of fresh chicken manure or soybean meal, stirred in and watered.

At the three foot level we placed a 3/4" garden hose down one side and back on the other. We added more layers and after slumping the height is about 3' again and a second garden hose is going in in th4e next day or two. Our goal is a pile 5' high and about 6' wide and then to cover the whole thing with dry leaves or dry compost (mostly wood shavings) and a tarp for insulation. Our water source is frozen so we're using snow for moisture. We've found that if you get each layer on within three or four days, the wole pile will stay hot. As soon as the pile is a bit higher we plan to test by filling the hose, letting it sit for a while, then connecting it to a water source and see how hot the water is, how much we get, and how long it takes to recharge. To get the water we take 300' of dry hose and connect to the spigot. When we are done, we have to drain out all the water from the hose.

Goal: We'd like to create a curtained-off hot zone along the north wall to grown container pepper and tomato plants to sell in the spring. The pile could be built easily in a day with our compact tractor on the next go-round.

If we fail, we'll at least have some very nice compost this spring!
We keep adding pictures to our web site as we're going along. Thanks to all the posters for adding their ideas.

Here is a link that might be useful: Erehwon Farm Journal

Tim, I appreciate your journal. I'm wondering if you dug a pit where your V2 sits and place the compost in that pit if it would be more effective? Then you could duct upwards into the bottom of your houses. It would also have less cold to fight off as it composts. You'd have to tarp it as you do now to keep it from flooding, but some french drains dug outwards would help. Greatest Luck to you Sir,
~tom

Thanks, Tom. I could easily dig a pit with my bucket loader. Flooding could be a problem but the soil seems to have excellent drainage. I think I could run a gutter along the side to drain off some moisture that runs down the side of the poly.

Now to your ducting: Could you elaborate a bit more? Are you thinking about some kind of air pipe from the center of the pile? I've also thought of some kind of water transfer that would allow hot water to flow uphill. Is this possible? My current plan is just to circulate hot water into the HH with a small pond pump and run it into some kind of coils that would allow the heat out inside the house.

It certainly is easier to write about this than to actually do it. Yesterday I luckily found a 200' garden hose under the snow, connected it to the 100' already buried in the pile, and added a 100' length on top of the pile. I only got a little way with this project before I got so cold I thopught my fingers and toes were going to fall off! A blizzard may come tonight! I may put up a couple of pictures today. Tim

Here is a link that might be useful: Erehwon Farm Journal

Tim, just as with your garden hoses coiled around the center of the pile, plain old cheap metal duct a few feet from the center of the pile to the inside of your hoop house should do the trick, if the angle is upward. Just as the garden hose would be easy to remove when needed to add or attend to the pile, the duct work would be similar. The duct itself will heat up moving the air inside upward without being restricted by materials. The amount of heat will vary depending on the heat and consistency of the pile. The duct work should be removed before the pile becomes cold. I do this from my piles to my sun shed which is next to the compost area. My area is small, so I only do it as long as I can keep the pile hot for the first months of cold and the last months of cold. With your access to manures and other materials, you have a gold mine!
~tom

Reading my last post makes it sound like ducting the compost easy. For me, its work as I have to go across the road for dairy manure, and the back woods for leaves. I can only manage this chore for Nov and part of Dec which corresponds to my growing extension. I don't attempt it again late March thru late April. Tim has the right equipment and source to make his composting hot all winter.
~tom

Tim,

You are 40 miles west of Chicago, and I'm about 40 south of it, closer to Kankakee than the Loop, but we get pretty much the same bitter cold of winter and blistering heat of summer and both have a considerable impact on when and how much we can actually USE a GH as opposed to fiddling with the mechanicals, natural or man made- that allow us to.

So after you have crumbled piles of paper, check out the cost of renting a small backhoe and a DitchWitch. Then hit your local Menards and/or Farm & Fleet and just window, or if you will; "aisle" shop.

It's amazing what notions you came come up, simply by wandering the aisles in those places and seeing what could be used as is or adapted for GH use. That's how I found my channel drains. I'd thought they would be too costly or difficult to find at retail, until I literally tripped over one in Menards. Really. Someone had left a section of one on the floor and as I was picking it up to get the cart past it, I looked at it, then up, to the display and- there it was! Exactly what I needed to solve the problem of a GH floor that had to be insulated underneath and rock solid to support a mortar set glazed quarry tile floor, but wouldn't be poured concrete.

So many products! So many applications for a use other than advertised but still- just what you need.

Tim! I miswrote above. I meant to say that I "WANT" to do this (duct work to the shed). My wording is mixed up and presents itself as a lie. I meant to say that I build a large 4x4x4 pile next to my shed twice a year. I am so sorry that I wrote that I duct to my shed.
I apologize to you and anyone that has read the above.
~tom

Here's another idea to consider instead of composting in the greenhouse -

Use a water trough/barrel/whatever for your solar mass and get the benefit of potentially bringing up the water temp that you use for watering your plants.

I drip water into a horse trough in my greenhouse. The trough is placed in direct line with the furnace output. A timer connected to a pump in the trough waters my plants daily--just enough to prevent the trough from overflowing from the drip.

I imagine this method also helps remove some of the chlorine in the water; it allows me to add nutrients to the trough for easy feedings and I get a little extra humidity (my climate is dry).

If I were to try to water the plants directly from the tap, my plants would likely pack up and go on vacation (tap water in my area is super cold).

I've been dragging my feet about flooring so I haven't dug a hole deep enough to set the trough in flush with the floor level--but that's next (along with a trough cover that can be walked on.) It's right in the middle of a planned walkway so once I've put the new flooring it, it won't really be taking up any space.

A question regarding the comment above re bubble wrap. Is the suggestion to line the interior with this in the winter and then take it out? I ask because the interior of my gh on all sides but south is plywood which I was going to coat with something to protect it from moisture, but with the bubble wrap suggestion I am now wondering if I could line the plywood walls with that permanently to protect it and provide additional thermal protection.
I have 2x6 insullated walls now but this might help with the moisture issue for the plywood which is an issue I have been worrying about and wondering how to best address.

Re a heat-sink: I salvaged 21 black barrels about 2' high each, which I filled with water - they have a 3/4" fill holes which I loosely cap (to allow for air to escape during expansion). I placed these under my benches on the north side. I think they once contained cooking oil of some kind, so maybe large restaurants would would be a source for these. Before I found these I was thinking about lining the north wall with water filled 3-4" ABS pipe sections - placed vertically. The permieter is a 2' or so concrete wall. The floor is chicken wire, then large 2-3" or or so round rocks, and then in the center (everywhere but under the benches) I put in red bricks without any motar. As I am just now finishing it all up, I cannot say how well this combined heat-sink will work, but when it is cold outside the barrels are warmer to the touch than the ambient temperature, and when it is really hot inside, they seem to be cooler than the ambient temperature - so hopefully they will work - along with some circulating fans - to moderate the temperature. I live in zone 9 and in the winter it rarely gets below 30, although once it was into the high teens. I will put in an electric heater to turn on at about 40 degrees or so. I put a temperature recording unit which sends temp info to me in the house and the receiving unit is hooked up to the computer so I can see hour by hour a graph of all temperatures so that will help with my ongoing planning.

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. I have been doing a bunch more research and it seems like I will need about 3 times the mass of compost as I was planning to heat the GH, but I am going to give it a try. I added a bunch of information on my blog about this- the link is below. I always appreciate your thoughts and feedback! Thanks again-

Here is a link that might be useful: Montana Wildlife Gardener

In an older english garden book was a drawing of a greenhouse. The greenhouse had a brick back wall and on the other side of the wall was an area that stable waste was composted to be used in the garden. The floor of the greenhouse had tile pipes under the floor leading to the composting area. The pipes were at the top of the composting area and sent warm air under the floor up a side wall of the greenhouse, similar to the pit greenhouse above, and exited into the greenhouse proper. Doubt if is feasible in this day and age but a brick, stone, block compost bin would reduce the chance of a fire if the compost became really hot.

Sorry to be posting on this older thread but I've been testing out my greenhouse compost hot beds for the past few days and things are going pretty well.

My greenhouse is 10'x12' with 6mil clear plastic. We're in Cda zone 6a (US zond 5a). Dirt floor.

I wanted to make hotbeds in the greenhouse to help with overall temperature (to reduce the need for electric heat on really cold nights) but also to get an early crop of lettuce, and to provide bottom heat for seed germination (I'm running out of room indoors).

Here are some pictures on my Flickr page:
photo of hotbed. This shows the 18"x36" hotbed with the hoops. On the left I put trays and flats for overnight warmth. The right has the lettuce planted in the six inches of triple mix on top of the hot compost. At night the hotbed is covered with plastic to form a mini hoophouse.

photo of compost portion of hotbed. I left one side of the hotbed uncovered, so I could use it as a source for bottom heat as well as the heat source for the mini hoophouse-within-the-greenhouse.

compost in bin in greenhouse. I had some extra compostables, so I made this bin out of a big metal container. I filled it half full with the soil removed for the hotbed trench, wet it thoroughly (wet soil is better thermal mass than dry) and topped it with 8" of wet compost feedstock. The temperature is about 50c but it goes even higher with more moisture and regular stirring. This bin is useful as a base for trays of seeds or seedlings. Using a clear dome creates a greenhouse-within-a-greenhouse for added insulation.

So far so good. Plants on the hotbed and bin have come through minus 7 C nights with no problem. The rest of the greenhouse frosts up but everything over the hotbeds is just fine.

I worry that the lettuce seedlings will be too warm at the root level. But they're growing quickly, so who knows. The compost underneath will slowly cool (it is impossible to stir it) so eventually I won't need to worry about cooking the lettuce.

Here is a link to my blog with information and pictures about the progress of my greenhouse constuction, including the compost furnace that was discussed on this string last January. Thanks again to Tom n 6bzone, stressbaby and birdwidow.
David

Here is a link that might be useful: Greenhouse construction update

One of the dangers of using compost to heat a green house is getting the right CN balance. Too much N, and the bacteria release ammonia into the air which will kill your plants. Too little, and the compost doesn't work.

Check motherearth news for stories about solar heated green houses. There was an article about a gent in Montana that built it as a leanto to his house, dug out a full basement under the greenhouse, insulated it, then filled it with mud and pipes. During the day he pumped water ina loop from the peak of the greenhouse into the mud pipes. At night he pumped water through teh mud pipes and radiators.

The compost idea is still a good one for provide CO2 for the plants in winter, as they will use up all the CO2 in an hour of sun. But for that I'd do it in a barrel, and have a tiny solar powered fan that moved air though the barrel.

This is a quick update on my compost powered heater I posted about in January.

I started building the pile, about 6' wide, 5' high, and 35' long alongside my 32' hoophouse. My water source froze solid in Jan. so each time I added to the pile I had to use a few buckets of snow for moisture. As I built the pile, a layer at a time over about 6 weeks, I added three layers of garden hose, connected together. I completed the pile 2/3/09 and estimate the middle of the pile was running about 140-150 degrees. Since no green material was available, I added a few pounds of soybean meal (chicken feed, 6% N, about the least expensive per pound ($6.00)source of readily available material, avail. at any feed store, each time I added a layer. Pile soon slumped to about 3.5 feet high.

On April 14, about 10 weeks after the pile was completed, I finally got around to checking the heat. I connected a water souce to the hose, flushed for a couple minutes, closed the output valve and let sit overnight. I turned on the water and when it began to feel warm, filled a five-gallon bucket, and measured the temp in the bucket: 112 degrees F. Don't know how much water in 300' of 3/4" hose nor the recharge time -- to busy planting (in the rain!).

Fall plan: Nov. 1 make new pile with some system to distribute heat in the HH and get some more data and, hopefully, grow something this winter. Sorry, no time for pictures right now. I'll try to get an update on my blog soon.

Fall project: How small a pile, using mostly available garden materials, could heat a mini house? How to build? How to get the heat in? etc.

Tim Fuller, tim@erehwonfarm.com

Fall project: How small a pile, using mostly available garden materials, could heat a mini house? How to build? How to get the heat in?

That's EXACTLY what I came here wondering about. I have 3 low hoops at about 3 foot tall 40 ft long. I was wondering if I boarded the sides to hold compost and that would raise the plants up to the top. I want to use the hoop houses to start plants in and try to over winter some annuals as an experiment. I was going to cover the hoops w/ a double layer or agribond fabric and a layer if tuff light GH plastic. With a few strings of Christmas lights at the top of the hoops to provide a lil more warm on the coldest nights in Feb.

Fall project: How small a pile, using mostly available garden materials, could heat a mini house?

You can't make one big enough with available garden materials to last through your cold season. You would have to have a huge one, heavily insulated. It's better to spend the money and labor on insulating your greenhouse.

The Victorian "hot beds" were basically manure pits with a glass covering, deep pits (2-4 feet deep) with a lot of fresh horse manure piled into them. Even then, the heat only lasted them a couple of months. That's enough to give melons the early start on growing time they need, but not enough to do much for a greenhouse in a Massachusetts winter.

"enough to give melons the early start " And peppers and Toms,and Annuals?

That's about what I am looking for.....

In that case, you locate a source of several cubic yards (a couple of pickup trucks full) of FRESH horse manure.

Sometime in February you fill the insulated manure bed or uncover the pit you dug last fall (about as large as a standard grave, but 3-4 feet deep, not 6), forking and re-forking it and checking temps until it's stabilized (in about a week).

Then you place your seedling flats on top of the manure in the pit, and cover it over with the glass ... monitoring the temps so you don't cook your plants unexpectedly on a sunny day. After the bed cools off, you dig it out and start over the next year with fresh manure.

It is a lot of work, and was usually only practiced on large estates who had gardener's assistants to shovel the dung.

gardener's assistants to shovel the dung.

bwhahaha.... I have twin 16 year old boys!( both over 6 2 one is 250..read lineman in Football the other is about 195 and looks like one heck of a tight end! ) They are the manual labor around here.( And they have a 9 yo brother and 6 yo sister so when they are gone i still have labor!