Anyone seen a mature texas mountain laurel growing in abq?

David-

Basically, if a plant meets the following criteria, I will attempt to plant it:

1.) I like it
2.) it's reasonably frost hardy
3.) it's not a water hog

I think pushing the envelope is fun, so why not plant palms, columnar cacti and the like? There's absolutely nothing wrong with planting whatever you feel like, provided it doesn't use up too much water.

I am also a big proponent of planting native, drought tolerant plants, but in the ABQ area, this is not especially common. I would much rather see acacia, mesquite, ocotillo, barrel cacti, and agave (all cold hardy) instead of pyracantha, grass lawns, endless varieties of non-native juniper, etc. Or even worse, so-called "xeriscapes" that consist of nothing but gravel.

CD

I have to echo cactus_dude's comments.

There appears to be two distinct trains of planting thoughts in this Forum - I don't think either are necessarily "right" or "wrong"...they are just differet approaches.

I tend to go with cactus_dude's attitude on pushing plants. Now, this is done within reason. I have seen now 2 saguaro cactus in Albuquerque growing above 4 feet, and even I think that is a bit too far. You would really have to go to high extremes for months every year I think to truly protect and grow a saguaro, and that is against where I would be coming from.

I guess I think if a plant would likely die nearly any winter (or summer) on average due to trying to "push" it, then it should not be planted.

However, as I've babbled on about in other posts here, I do feel Albuquerque's climate (or El Paso's even moreso) is highly suited to really push plants such as those that cactus_dude is talking about. A few of the really hearty to semi-hearty palms, some barrel cacti, etc.

Isn't that sometimes somewhat of the fun, where instead of just sticking it in the ground and letting it grow, like one could essentially do in Phoenix, rather having to give it protection at times, care, etc.?

And if once out of 20 years or so an especially wicked, unusual stretch of winter weather comes in and knocks out such a plant, hey, you got 20 years of beauty and enjoyment out of it. By no means do I think that is being wasteful or irresponsible.

Such weather happens even in places such as Phoenix when they plant olive trees, coconut palms, etc., once in a very great while. Still, I would never blame anyone there from pushing these tropical plants - why not? - you can get away with it very often, and get years of beauty and enjoyment out of them.

However, I do think a prevailing attitude among many here - and again, it is completely understandable - is that, for example, unlike a palm in Albuquerque that indeed requires winter protection to truly thrive and do well, it would be better to plant plants that just are acclimated completely to the climate year-round. And again, I completely understand that viewpoint too, even though it isn't mine! :)

[Maybe it is just that I am originally from Milwaukee, where you have to be used to winter-protecting almost everything all the time anyway!]

As I think I may've said in that last thread, my basic feeling is that I'd rather spend my time appreciating an area than use gardening as a way of telling the world I'd rather be someplace else. Planting palms, saguaros, etc., in a place like Albuquerque is really the same thing as planting lawns, but with a different regional bias... you plant palms & saguaros if you wish you were in SoCal or Phoenix, you plant a lawn if you wish you were in the midwest. Since I tend to think that knowledge and appreciation of the places we find ourselves living in is an important virtue conspicuously absent in the US, I find this tendency a bit worrying.

Patrick Alexander

I don't think it's fair to assume that just because a palm or some other exotic has been planted, the person who planted it would rather live somewhere else. Too much is being read into this. Maybe the person just likes palms(or any plant for that matter).

Additionally, I don't agree that planting certain plants is indicative of a lack of appreciation or knowlege of the region in which an individual resides, as alluded to in the previous post.

Aside from introducing invasive plants which threaten the native ecosystem, or plants that require too much water, I see no reason to not plant whatever you feel like. Planting non-natives can be a fun and rewarding experience, which is one of the main reasons people take up gardening.

Thanks for listening to my ranting!

Regards,

CD

I have to echo cactus_dude's comments above.

From personal experience, I had an equal opportunity to relocate to Phoenix rather than Albuquerque, and have been there many times. While Phoenix is a beautiful area in its own right with a tremendous plant-growing climate, I readily chose Albuquerque to reside in (for many, many reasons) but climate and its natural beauty were two big ones over our Sonoran friends to the SW.

Just because some may think Albuquerque residents can get away with beautifying their areas with a couple of Windmill Palms or protected barrel cacti and the like, I don't think it is a reflection of their desire to live elsewhere, or to make something of our beautiful desert city that it is not.

When I have been in Vancouver, Canada, I have seen many Windmill Palms thriving and doing quite well there. Vancouver's climate is essentially the polar opposite of Albuquerque, but still hardly a conventional palm tree locale. Still, I do not think they are planting their palms wishing they were in San Diego!

Certainly, I would agree on large, green lawns in Albuquerque, El Paso or a similar desert environment. Having them gets into issues of responsibility and wastefulness, which impacts the folks and the natural surroundings.

Or, I agree on certain non-native plants that take what I would consider extreme measures just to try to keep to survive.

But I guess I just don't see the harm or the negativity of trying to push certain plants that may require a bit of extra care, but otherwise do well generally and can thrive.

"Additionally, I don't agree that planting certain plants is indicative of a lack of appreciation or knowlege of the region in which an individual resides, as alluded to in the previous post."

Needless to say, I disagree. If you like and appreciate Albuquerque, why on earth would you spend your time trying to make it look like the midwest, or like Phoenix, etc.? If you think Albuquerque's plants are good, and you're in Albuquerque... you'll plant them. Instead, landscaping in the southwest is based almost entirely on exotics and on an attempt to import the gardening of somewhere else. Palms just happen to be one of the most obvious examples.

Patrick Alexander

As a true native myself of Albuquerque, I have a tremendous appreciation (and knowledge) of my beautiful state. Does that mean I have to choose Yucca elata and Echinocereus fendleri v. kuenzleri over Yucca brevifolia and Echinocereus englemannii? Of course not. If I do, does it mean I'm clueless regarding my home state? Of course not. Does it mean that I'm trying to make it look like I live in Phoenix, because that's my secret desire? Of course not.

"landscaping in the southwest is based almost entirely on exotics and on an attempt to import the gardening of somewhere else".

I'm sorry, but this statement is absurd. In Tucson and Phoenix there is an abundance of native landscaping: Cercidium microphyllum, Carneqiea gigantea, Prosopis velutina, Encelia farinosa, etc. In Sante Fe you'll find a lot of Juniperus monosperma, Cylindropuntia imbricata, Yucca glauca, Salvia officinalis, etc. In Las Cruces you'll find Prosopis glandulosa, Ferocactus wislizenii, Agave neomexican, Yucca elata, etc. Yes, exotics are found all over the southwest, but that is not necessarily what landscaping is entirely based on.

Alexander, I guess I'll just have to agree to to disagree with you! Take care.

cd

Oops, I meant to say Patrick (not Alexander). Sorry!

cd

"I have a tremendous appreciation (and knowledge) of my beautiful state. Does that mean I have to choose Yucca elata and Echinocereus fendleri v. kuenzleri over Yucca brevifolia and Echinocereus englemannii? Of course not. If I do, does it mean I'm clueless regarding my home state? Of course not. Does it mean that I'm trying to make it look like I live in Phoenix, because that's my secret desire? Of course not."

Neither Yucca brevifolia nor Echinocereus engelmannii are typical, either as natives or in cultivation, of the Phoenix area, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Also, the whole thing's a continuum. If you're planting southwestern plants that are from a ways away it's rather different from planting things that are native neither to the southwest nor to North America, which is the prevailing practice.

"I'm sorry, but this statement is absurd. In Tucson and Phoenix there is an abundance of native landscaping: Cercidium microphyllum, Carneqiea gigantea, Prosopis velutina, Encelia farinosa, etc. In Sante Fe you'll find a lot of Juniperus monosperma, Cylindropuntia imbricata, Yucca glauca, Salvia officinalis, etc. In Las Cruces you'll find Prosopis glandulosa, Ferocactus wislizenii, Agave neomexican, Yucca elata, etc. Yes, exotics are found all over the southwest, but that is not necessarily what landscaping is entirely based on."

Sure, if you look you can find native plants. Tucson in particular seems to be much better in this respect. But they're the exception rather than the rule. For instance, here in Las Cruces the most common landscaping plants are Bermuda grass, Lantana camara, oleander, white mulberry, pecan, Leucophyllum, and Hesperaloe. None of those are native to the area! (though Leucophyllum does at least grow within a day's drive...) You'll also find some Yucca elata, Agave (though mostly americana rather than the local neomexicana), prickly pears, mesquite (though only the east Texas form is cultivated), Echinocactus, etc., but these are definitely in the minority. And when it comes to native herbaceous plants, practically the only ones you'll see are weeds that someone hasn't gotten around to pulling up--it's far easier to find native forbs in abandoned city lots than in cultivation. When it comes to Phoenix... it's big enough that you can find just about anything in there somewhere, but what percentage of the city bears any relation to the surrounding desert? Most of it is either lawns or some weird simulacrum of the tropics.

Patrick Alexander

It occurs to me that this forum and the AZ gardening forum provide excellent examples of the general landscaping trends. Just going with the plants mentioned in the titles of posts on the first page of posts, for this forum we get 12 exotics and 3 southwest natives, and for the AZ forum we get 14 exotics and 2 southwest natives. I think that summarizes the general trend.

Patrick Alexander

Patrick-

A couple of points: Firstly, if you carefully read my previous post, you will find that I mentioned Y. brevifolia, commonly known as the Joshua Tree, and E. englemannii, in order to illustrate that those are non-native to Albuquerque or New Mexico, which by your standards, make them forbidden subjects for landscaping here. Nowhere did I mention anything about Phoenix in regard to this particular point I was making.

Secondly, you state that neither Y. brevifolia or E. englemannii are typical "as natives or in cultivation." Once again, I must disagree. While perhaps not as common in cultivation in our region, both species are found in abundance in other parts of the southwest, particularly as natives, lest my own eyes have deceived me.

Thirdly, by your own admission you state that native plants can be found in the sw, which contradicts your earlier statement that "landscaping in the sw is based almost entirely on exotics...".

I want to make it clear that I respect your opinion, and welcome your thoughts, but frankly I have grown weary of arguing this issue. I think we've both made our opinions abundantly clear, and we obviously have deep convictions on this matter. Therefore, as I said earlier, we should simply agree to disagree. Thanks and have a great day.

cd

I once saw a house in LC with a row of creosote bush trimmed into a formal hedge. Bizarre.

Wow---major dialogue! I'll try to get some words in edgewise! I actually agree with much of you all---I think the "answer" is a balance of what has been posted.

My first post was merely being sarcastic when I included "people who push zones who need to move to Phoenix". I have heard the un-adventurous say that when I (and maybe some of you) do not stay in their box. I DO NOT think you should move, since those who innovate in order to have a more attractive place need to stay! After all, look at many of the tough, attractive plants Abq now has in use, thanks to people thoughtfully expanding plant choices. What have the naysayers brought us?

My landscape / plant mindset is this: 1st local / regional native plants, 2nd adapted non-natives, and avoid use of non-adapted species as much as possible.

More insight on me (I hope to hear about everyone's insights and backgrounds, too): I am a landscape architect who works in Abq (and increasingly in El Paso and Las Vegas NV) who strives to create more sustainable projects, that function and look good in spite of tight budgets and a lack of maintenance savvy. This requires using more and more native plants, durable materials, and design concepts. (no, I do not deal with residential projects much) I started college (OU) as a meteorology major (still a huge interest), though I graduated with a Bach. of Science degree in Environmental Design in '88, and I have been practicing and moving towards using more native plants since.

I have lived in the following climates: sub-humid northern prairie (Omaha), humid maritime (Belgium), humid southern continental (Alabama), semi-arid northern steppe (Denver), sub-humid southern prairie (Norman OK), sub-humid Mediterranean (San Diego), and now I live in 2 different parts of an arid southern desert (Abq and increasingly, El Paso). I have also visited (+ studied) in even more different environments. I also like to mtn bike, hike, and travel all over. (my favorite places are the Sandia foothills outside our front door, the Robledo Mtns near LC, and almost anywhere between, from 4000' to 8000')

That allows me to make studied comparisons, which helps w/ my professional decisions.

Anyway, if every property in Abq had a courtyard w/ a few windmill palms, some India hawthorns and a fountain, with the vast balance of outdoor spaces in native plants, so what? I bet that concept is far more sensitive to our limited water and more appealing to wildlife and our eyes than the norm: a courtyard full of dying aspens (with roots penetrating water/sewer piping, and plastic coming up through gravel), or an expanse of grass and gravel with scattered, struggling photinias, mugo pines and sycamores.

In my dealings with people in Abq (many), the naysayers have a double standard: they often are against using hardy tree yuccas or even the locally native creosote bush, while they think nothing of lavender or Japanese maple. The former is somehow perceived as non-cold-hardy (now only found on the southern edges of town), while the latter are fine, from thousands of miles away (lavender is from a milder climate and the maple from wetter, cooler climates and soils).

Keep pushing the envelope within ecoregional realities, share your experiences, and create more beauty w/ less water. The naysayers are starting to copy us, anyway!

Great forum!

Yes, but it is in the warmest part of Abq at the Coronado 6 Theatres (Uptown), on a south facing wall---about 10' tall and wide. It flowers most years (early-mid April?). I am told it came from the TX Hill Country. Others from that region have been tried in Abq and consistently freeze out.

If you are away from the E Canyon wind blast area, it may be worth using it in a warm exposure.

In the future, some will be available that are grown from seed collected in the Guadalupe Mtns where it is much colder than central TX, even colder than the hills near Carlsbad---Trees That Please may have some of those. You might try those.

Related ones that seem to grow include 'Silver Peso' TX mtn laurel and Sophora formosa from central AZ.

"A couple of points: Firstly, if you carefully read my previous post, you will find that I mentioned Y. brevifolia, commonly known as the Joshua Tree, and E. englemannii, in order to illustrate that those are non-native to Albuquerque or New Mexico, which by your standards, make them forbidden subjects for landscaping here. Nowhere did I mention anything about Phoenix in regard to this particular point I was making.

Secondly, you state that neither Y. brevifolia or E. englemannii are typical "as natives or in cultivation." Once again, I must disagree. While perhaps not as common in cultivation in our region, both species are found in abundance in other parts of the southwest, particularly as natives, lest my own eyes have deceived me."

Seems to just be some sort of odd misunderstanding here. I'll leave it at that...

"Thirdly, by your own admission you state that native plants can be found in the sw, which contradicts your earlier statement that "landscaping in the sw is based almost entirely on exotics..."."

Maybe "mostly" or something would've been better than "almost entirely", but the gist is: there is a very strong bias towards using exotics rather than natives and I think that this bias results primarily from a lack of understanding and appreciation for native southwestern plants on the part of most gardeners.

Trying to figure out whether growing a palo verde that's actually native to an area 200 miles away rather than your home itself makes you out-of-touch or a "bad" gardener doesn't strike me as being particularly useful, so I'd just limit myself to saying that someone in Las Cruces having a lawn of bermuda grass with windmill palms, a couple oleander, and a bunch of Lantana camara probably indicates some sort of major disjunction between the gardener's mentality and the ecology/flora of the area. Besides which, it's incredibly boring...

I should also probably mention that I tend to have strong opinions on just about everything, but I don't mind at all if everyone else disagrees with me just as strongly. To some extent, that's what I prefer. :-)

Patrick Alexander

I am in Phoenix. There are pronounced micro-climates here also. There is as much or more zone denial here as anywhere. My young mango (from seed) froze back to a small stick last winter. My banana plants slow, or even stop growing, when it gets too cold or too hot.
For non-native plants, full sun means afternoon shade.
My Washingtonia Robustas (the most common palm here) are native.
Pomegranites are growing like natives. They take the heat, frost, and monsoon winds (including micro-bursts) on 6" of rain without extra water from the hose. They ignore caliche, salt and alkaline soil and water. I have seen them thriving above 3600' where it dropped below zero at least once that I know of.
Just accept your conditions where ever you are and live with them.
If you want to push zones, have fun!
Happy gardening!
PS I have humming birds year round and American Kestrel Falcons nest in my Palms every spring.
I have slept in Las Vegas but I have never been to Nevada.

dirt_dew:

I should probably resist the temptation, but I can't...

Washingtonia robusta is not native in Arizona, nor anywhere else in the US.

Washingtonia filifera, on the other hand, is native in Arizona (only one site in Yuma Co., apparently), and also California.

Patrick Alexander

I am aware of Palm Canyon in the Kofa. I am not sure if it is in Yuma County or La Paz County, which broke away from Yuma County. Palm Canyon has about 100 mature specimens. It is the LAST place the native palms grow naturally in Arizona. (Unless a new stand is discovered hidden away somewhere.)
It is NOT the only place they ever grew naturally.
I was led to believe these palms are the same as I have in my yard. If I am wrong, I was given bad information, and in my ignorance I accepted it.
However, I am told they cross pollenate easily. So some of my volunteers may be Washingtonia Filibusta, just like in our national senate when different parties cross each other.
Happy gardening!
By the way, the Sonoran Desert doesn't observe state or national boundaries.

"I am aware of Palm Canyon in the Kofa. I am not sure if it is in Yuma County or La Paz County, which broke away from Yuma County. Palm Canyon has about 100 mature specimens. It is the LAST place the native palms grow naturally in Arizona. (Unless a new stand is discovered hidden away somewhere.)
I was led to believe these palms are the same as I have in my yard. If I am wrong, I was given bad information, and in my ignorance I accepted it."

Well, all I know of it is that Palm Canyon is the only place where Washingtonia is recorded to occur in Arizona in the three major state herbaria (UA, ASU, NAU), and the collectors all call it Washingtonia filifera. That information, BTW, is available through the linked website. Worth mentioning that the data in the herbaria are a little harder to interpret in this case because of a bunch of collections of cultivated plants...

"By the way, the Sonoran Desert doesn't observe state or national boundaries."

Well, yeah. But you don't live in the whole Sonoran Desert, you live in one little bit of it. :-)

Patrick Alexander

I have read some debate on Washingtonia filifera also being native at Castle Hot Spgs (I think it is a low canyon near Wickenburg AZ) and also from the Moapa Tribe in SE Nevada; both places warmer than one might think. Both locs seem to lie on the edges of the Sonoran Desert ecoregion climate...

Has anyone seen those plants in herbariums? Or other info on them>

This argument is absurd. I can't believe someone is "b&tch$ng" because people plant palmtrees in El Paso...

you gotta be kidding me. I live in California now and NOTHING in California is native. Not even the grasses that grow wildly in the desert hills. We humans create new landscapes. Sometimes we make things more beautiful, sometimes we make things uglier. And palmtrees are beautiful!

When I think of El Paso I think of winds and dust storms and palm trees.

That's what makes it beautiful to me.

And the issue about water? Give me a break. Stop having so many babies, that will help the environment more than worrying about wether a plant absorbs too much water or not.

Get your head out of your a$$

palmobsession 8 ---- wow, I can't believe you resurrected this old thread! I chuckled at some of the vehemence when I read this way back when it was first posted in '05. I do agree with you. While I love the native flora of my state, in zone 8 southern NM, I relish the drought tolerant, cold hardy palm species that I grow here. I recycle what I can, try to avoid being wasteful, etc., but I won't cave to the 'plant nazis'. I cherish having a colorful, visually interesting garden which is an eclectic mix of textures and geographically diverse plants. Most are xeric or at least moderately drought tolerant, local species or from South America, North Africa, and even Australia. I water mainly with drip irrigation and only as needed. Some get no more than one or two supplemental waterings a year, existing on what nature provides. My garden is an obsession if not a sweet addiction. Maybe its style looks a little like "So Cal meets the Chihuahuan Desert". It's not for everyone, but I didn't plant it for everyone. Anyway, I enjoyed your anger over the discussions people had. Cheers. dl

Hello all,
New here to forum. I live in Benalillo, NM.
Was wondering if anyone had tried "Red Prairie Mallow" and if so with what luck?
Robert

Hi! My husband came here for a New Job. I am an almost life long Alaskan. So this is totally opposite gardening approach from whence I came. Can anyone please suggest Edible Landscaping ideas that would be good for the Las Cruces area? What fruit trees are not "water hogs?" I would really like some "dual purpose" landscaping. I had no idea till we came here how much Alaska is blessed with a great water supply. :) Whats the deal with water regs here??? I have been reading up some, but sometimes some of the best info is from the locals. :) Thanks. Vanessa

Vanessa, welcome to the forum --- and to Las Cruces! Try Enchanted Gardens on Avenida de Mesilla. The owner and plantswoman Jackeye is a great resource. Limited water but a long growing season. Good luck... dl