I didn't see any evidence of any palm trees or saguaros being damaged here in Tucson. For the most part, our excursion into the colder temperatures was brief, the daily highs were still above 65 degrees. I'm starting to wonder if some of my precautions are needed. I cover my Cardon, Organ Pipes and Mexican Fence Posts if I think it's going to get below 45.
Despite the cold, my Desert Bird of Paradise is still putting on new leaves.

I was in far east El Paso today, near Pellicano/Joe Battle. Many burnt phoenix canariensis and washingtonia robusta. The ones in central and on the west side seemed to fare better. Offical low there thus far this winter was 13F.

I was in Las Cruces and El Paso yesterday, and I saw the usual winter damage, but that normally comes a little later: fronds on Washingtonia robusta were damaged, especially younger ones and even more so in the Upper Valley. The Washingtonia filifera were less damaged.

I heard the lows in Radium Springs N or L.C. were about 10F, though perhaps cold spots in Mesilla were colder?

I live in El Paso very part time, and it is interesting to see that Washingtonia robusta seems to do better in their uplands, though wherever their fronds are frozen, they regrow quickly. I wonder if there were enough palms in the 60's and 70's cold waves to scientifically know if Washingtonias (esp. W robusta) and Phoenix can recover from those extremes?

Hi all,
Been lurking and reading the posts about Alb and EP and decided to add my 2 cents. I usually post on the Hardy Palm and Subtropical message board and know Steve from there.

In all EP had a mild wet year with rain fall over 4 inches above normal (although there was no recorded rain the last 2 months of the year). The low of 13° was right in line with our z8a rating, but itÂs interesting to note that for the year we were below 20° for all of 4 hours.

El Paso, TX 2005 from the National Weather Service

Temperature
Max temp: 107° on 30 June, 1 July
Min temp: 13° on 8 Dec
Low/Max: 41° on 8 Dec
High/Min: 79° on 29, 30 June, 4 July

Precipitation
Rain: 12.87 inches
Snow: trace amounts on 23 Feb, 16 Dec

(Number of Days with)
Max 100° or above: 36
Max 90° or above: 103
Max below 50°: 6
Max 32° or below: 0
Min 32° or below: 29
Min below 20°: 1

So you can see EP missed having a z9 year by 4 hours, and usually there are only 2 to 3 days a year with low temps below 20. More importantly EP has over 350 days a year with high temps above 50, and as you in Albuquerque know mid fifties in the high desert sun is very pleasant.

An important thing to consider when comparing Alb with EP is the location of the airports or official weather stations. AlbuquerqueÂs airport is in a fairly warm part of town while EPÂs airport is right on the edge of the Tularosa Basin and receives a good amount of cold air drainage. Steve has already mentioned how the palms on the East side of town show more cold damage than those on the mountain slopes.

As I know itÂs the same in Alb, the city of EP can be dived into warm and cold microclimate regions. The upper valley area (from Sunland Park north) is the coldest area in town and is a solid z8a, as is the far southeast valley. The area around the airport and the east side of town (which receives cold air drainage from the Tularosa Basin and the east slopes of the Franklins) is at the upper end of z8a. The east and west slopes of the Franklins are solid z8b with the west slopes being slightly warmer. The central area of town on the southern slopes with the urban cooker of Juarez laid out to the south is boarder line z9a. This is the area with many mature Phoenix and Washingtonia palms well over 50 years of age.

I think the main difference between El Paso and Las Cruces is the terrain and urban heat. Though both are technically z8 there is still a significant difference between the two. North of EP the river is further to the west, thus further from the mountains. Parts of LC enjoy some cold air drainage benefits but not near what EP does. In EP the river runs very close to the mountain and cuts through to start its long trek to the gulf. Because of the mountains and the political boundaries of New and Old Mexico the city had to be built around the southern tip of the Franklins on some pretty steep terrain, so the combination of excellent southern exposure, good steep thermal belt areas, and urban heat lets EP enjoys one of the best microclimates in the country.

Here are some pictures of my yard I took today (January 4, 2006). I live on west slopes on the edge of town (about a mile north of Red Road). IÂll post some pictures of some of the old time palms in central EP later.

Washingtonia filifera
{{gwi:1267301}}

Brahea armata
{{gwi:1267303}}

Caesalpinia pulcherrima This is my biggest surprise. I would have never thought after that hard cold snap early in Dec that this little red bird would still have green undamaged leaves.
{{gwi:1267305}}

Phoenix canariensis
{{gwi:1267306}}

Slight cold damage to a few leaflets.
{{gwi:1267307}}

New emerging leaves are still green and supple
{{gwi:1267308}}

Alo vera looking rough
{{gwi:1267310}}

Syagrus romanzoffiana took a hard bronzing, but still has some green
{{gwi:1267313}}

close up of queen
{{gwi:1267315}}

Canary and Queen
{{gwi:1267317}}

quercus
I can tell you that the palms on the far Eastside looked nothing like Mikes! Most of the phoenix I saw there that were the same size as Mikes were completely brown.

We had 3 nights below 20 with 17 the lowest here in Mesilla Park, 12-14F was common in outlying areas according to the NMSU weather site, which reports data from gages statewide. Hatch reported single digits several nights, altho that may be wrong. Single digits were also reported at Dripping Springs but with lower maxes than Hatch. Jornada Range was 11, so Radium could have been 10 - but I dont think Mesilla got below 10.

Mike explains it well - but that area at the base of the mountains in EP still seems a bit like magic to me. My theory is that even if palms are severely damaged there they receive enough residual heat after significant freeze events to heal themselves. And many are next to buildings. The ones at 717 Yandell are almost certain to have survived 1962. There is a photo of them in the 1967 UTEP yearbook - you can see that they suffered some type of damage earlier- whether that was 1962 I dont know. You can see a narrowing of the trunk on these and other phoenix c. in EP at about the same height - 8-10 feet- including ones on Wheeling Ave near Memorial Park - maybe this was a result of the 62 freeze. (Just my observations). I am sure there are filiferas in LC that survived 1962 as well- the filifera in front of Jett Hall on Espina St comes to mind.

Jim Carpenter lives here but is a native El Pasoan and palm grower- he lived in LC (behind the old Holiday Inn) during the 1962 freeze and said many palms in LC died in that freeze (and many in EP did too) but there were many palms in EP that survived - including robusta. There was not much rhyme or reason as to which survived and which died, some of the same species were next to each other, one died the other did not. He said there was nothing green after that freeze....

All -

Since I am the one who started this thread, thought I'd chime in here a bit. It has been absolutely fascinating to me reading all of your posts, and I thank you heartily for such detailed, intriguing information and observations. It truly has made for just insightful reading.

It seems that this has become more of an El Paso-thread than a Tucson one, which is perfectly fine, as due to EP's closer proximity to Albuquerque, and my regular visits down, EP info is readily interesting to me.

All of you folks are far more knowledgable than I, however, I have just had two multi-day stays in El Paso over the Holidays, and have, after observing for myself and reading your posts, come up with a few observations of my own, along with a couple of other questions if anyone would care to field them:

--I have driven around much of El Paso (and walked around much of Ciudad Juarez) on my fairly regular visits down, however, the area I have primarily walked around and observed is around the area I stay - on the east side of EP, not too far off of I-10 and Yarborough, close to the airport.

I have been amazed - on that part of town - at how well the majority of palms I have witnessed thrive. I have indeed seen quite a number of the younger or mid-sized ones with severe winter burning on their fronds (likely from that early December cold stretch I am guessing that got me to start this thread), however, even on the very burnt ones, the trees themselves look to be just fine, and I believe would be shooting prospering new, green fronds come March or so.

--There do not appear to be many T.Fortunei (Windmill) used in EP, but the couple I saw seem excellent. The majority of Filiferas I have seen were really good too. The Robustas seem to largely be burnt - more on younger and mid-sized ones - but some small ones, as Stevenmz noted, have almost no winter damage, standing right next two ones that are readily brown. I actually haven't seen the Phoenix C. burnt all too badly, but I must not be finding the ones referenced above that are readily brown.

--I am just amazed - shocked - at what more can be grown palm-wise and other - just 260 miles south of us and 1300 feet lower in elevation....you'd expect some things, but it is just almost a different world in El Paso. I really can see how EP just has a superb microclimate!

--In one yard near where I stay, there are two large saguaros - both higher than rooftops of one-story homes (one even with several "arms"). Another yard I pass on Yarborough has a tall saguaro as well. I realize that saguaros are not native to that area - really are Sonoran plants - and on this forum I have been told that in El Paso, they are usually transplanted into yards in mature status. However, I have also been told in the past that after only a few hours below freezing, saguaros can die! And while I realize EP this year was only below 20 degrees for a fairly short time, surely it would seem to me that these saguaros have been under feezing temps for hours if not days (in evening hours). Yet, they do not appear to be damaged (although I am not entirely certain how one would spot damage on a saguaro). I am just fascinated at how these would've survived a night of 13 degrees for a low, even if in their microclimate they were more at 20 degrees or so at the lowest. If anyone has any insights on this, I would be curious.

Yes, after being in Albuquerque now for nearly 2 years, but visiting El Paso regularly, I readily admit to a certain degree of "zone envy" up here! I have fallen in love with El Paso's climate I think! More mild in the winter, but not the extreme summer heat of Phoenix/Tucson.

abqpalms:

Regarding the saguaros, I know that my in-laws' neighbor, who live on the east side (off avenue of the americas) cover their mature saguaro in a blanket on cold nights. It has been in their yard for several years.

One of the reasons saguaros have such a limited and well defined range is because when young they are very cold tender. It takes a good 10 to 15 years of consecutive solid z9 winters for them to become large enough to gain decent hardiness. On the rare occasion when SW Arizona has a hard cold snap, many, many baby saguaros can be lost with only those in natural protected areas (like being on a sunny south slope or under the overhand of a mesquite or some other desert shrub). Once the saguaro gains some size, a couple of feet or more in height, they gain a significant amount of hardiness, and can easily take a z8 winter or even a short dip into single digits.

Although they arent real common in EP, they arent all that rare either. There are quite a few that have been growing unprotected for many years. Its actually easier to find a saguaro in EP than it is to find a Brahea armata.

Here are a few pictures of saguaros on the Westside of town along with one from Las Cruces.

Saguaro in Las Cruces
{{gwi:1267319}}

Cluster of saguaros
{{gwi:1267321}}

Typical SW landscape
{{gwi:1267323}}

This old Westside neighborhood was built in the 1950s, and I have known about this saguaro since the early 80s (it doesnt look much bigger now than when I first saw it). Notice how it has grown right up against the roof. I doubt it was transplanted that way, so its not out of the question to assume that it has been growing in this location for 40 years or more.
{{gwi:1267324}}

adp_abq -

That is a really interesting antecdote about covering the saguaro with a blanket. My only concern would be if the saguaro were a big enough one, some of those would require an enormous blanket! But for a mid-sized one, that would seem to make some good sense as a form of winter protection.

Mike -

Wow....those are INCREDIBLE photos! Thanks very much for sharing them. Also, again, very intriuging info you present on the saguaros. I had no idea that mature, grown, large saguaros could withstand such low temp extremes (in limited doses of course). That is incredibly neat. If some could be growing in EP for decades, certainly they are just fine in that climate.

Even one in Las Cruces...that is just fascinating to me.

Wow, this REALLY adds to my "zone envy" of El Paso, or even Las Cruces.

ANY other info regarding palms, cacti, etc., in EP, Las Cruces, etc., anyone would have, I would love to keep hearing it! Very interesting and enlightening material being presented!

great pictures everyone! I have a second home in Tucson and I have noticed no damage to any palms. they're low at UA is just above 30 degress F.
Abqpalms- have you never seen this sagauro in the south valley of ABQ?

Great photos & insights, everyone. I like the statistic (steven in LC?) about hours or days above 50F---I think that is an interesting temperature, like hours below and above 32F, etc. That is a temperature Abq barely rises above (or sometimes does not hit) for 2 months, and I would not be surprised if that combined with 5-10 hours on average a night below 32F, is what makes a big difference w/ subtropicals.

I always suspected parts of EP were in USDA 9, too.

On Abq's airport, it actually is in a milder part of the town for morning lows, but it is one of the cooler areas of Abq for many hours of the day (from many people I talk with), as the cold air rising as the valley inversion breaks often supresses their warming, according to a meteorologist I spoke to years back. I tend to believe it. I wondered why I warm up so fast compared to them, even though I am in the foothills---and I cool down faster in the afternoon most days, too. Life in the southwest, w/ large terrain variations---we're not in Kansas anymore.

That is the saguaro I have seen for years in the S Valley. It seems to flower every May 1...I wonder if it is just living on it's own "juices" sometimes, but w/ those lights on it, who knows??

http://www.met.utah.edu/mesowest/
is a useful weather site, that one can click on the map, select cities, review current and past weather data (temps, dewpoint, etc)...all those things some of us like to talk about in regards to plant growth, hardiness, and the like.

This makes it possible to retrieve specific temperatures, graphed by the hour for a given period.

Just about every remote and official weather station around NM, Texas, etc. is included.

Here are some photos of the plants in question (you can directly go to the link if this code does not work)

"Lavender Spice" / Poliomintha maderensis (my Albq home)

WIDTH="400" ALIGN="BOTTOM" BORDER="0">

"Lavender Spice" / Poliomintha maderensis (close-up)

WIDTH="400" ALIGN="BOTTOM" BORDER="0">

Mexican Oregano / Poliomintha incana (UTEP Chihuahuan Desert Garden)

WIDTH="400" ALIGN="BOTTOM" BORDER="0">

Oops---guess posting photos here is not my thing...please go to forum post on Poliomintha for correct links

Most Tucson folks on Gardenweb seem to frequent the Arizona Gardening forum...there's 30 or so of them over there. You might get some responses from that gang if you were to cross post your question in that forum as well.

I live in Marana, a suburb just north of Tucson. Unfortunately, I can't really answer your question because I don't pay attention much to which types of palm trees do well here. Others in the AZ forum could definitely answer your question, though!

Just a quick comment- if your saguaro has suffered frost damage you may not know about it for a couple of years. They are slow to react to insults like that. A neighbor's saguaro got broken in half during a bad summer storm. They decided not to rush the broken part off to the dump preferring to see how nature took its course with it, and the next year the dismembered top part bloomed!

Several years ago (like thirty), it was observed at Saguaro National Monument east of Tucson that many of the saguaros appeared to be diseased. Biopsies showed abnormally high bacteria counts, and some test cacti were injected with antibiotics to see if the saguaros could be saved, but in addition to being prohibitively expensive, it didn't appear to help. Then it came to light that there had been a hard freeze two years prior, and working on that information it was discovered that it wasn't a contagious disease, but the saguaros that were ailing were in the coldest pockets of the area. They just didn't show visible evidence of frost damage for a very long time.

Yes, and the frost damage to a saguaro is the dark indented rings around it you see in the last photo of this thread. It is often not visable for years since the damaged part has to grow upward enough for us to be able to see it!

Im not sure how long the saguaro in ABQ has been there, but I first saw that photo a couple of years ago so its been there at least a few years. There are many in El Paso that have been around for 20, even 30 years or more. EP has around 2 or 3 nights a year with low temps in the teens, but even though they may acquire a little cosmetic damage in the coldest years, they still continue to grow and flower.

So I think there is a little more than cold involved with the biotic outbreak that infected the cactus at Saguaro National Monument.

Possibly, but don't forget- they were in a national park with no houses or other thermal masses around them. I remember that cold snap. It had been fairly warm up until then, and mulberry in my back yard still had most of its leaves. The morning after the sudden frost, I heard a muffled "whump" in the back yard and looked out to see that all the mulberry leaves had fallen off the tree in one fell swoop- I guess it got above freezing just then. I do think that the damage could have been pure freeze damage if the saguaros hadn't had a chance to harden off gradually before it froze out, and the mulberry still having most of its leaves leads me to believe that was the case.

superman9138 wrote -
>>[i][b]Abqpalms- have you never seen this sagauro in the south valley of ABQ?[/i][/b]

Argh....unfortunately no, superman!! I have seen pics a few times, and another kind-hearted poster on this forum - cactus dude - pointed me toward about 2nd or 4th and Rio Bravo to see it, but alas, on my two drives down there in that area, I could never find it!

It appears a few other folks on here have found it, am I looking in a wrong area?? Would love to see it!

Also - a few other questions for everyone:

a) Has anyone seen ever any other saguaros in Albuquerque - (not in pots but thriving in a yard like this one), other than this one? I am guessing not, however, if this big one has been up for so many years in the Valley of all places, I would assume if given the absolute right microclimate, another one or two could survive here as well. Would love to hear details/see pics if so. Again, I am guessing this a no, but one would think if this one could make it for years, others could as well in non-Valley, good microclimate areas.

b) With the naked eye, what is the easiest way to distinguish, tell apart, if a palm is either a 1) Wash. Filifera (Calif Fan) or 2) Wash. Robusta (Mexican Fan)...I know Filiferas are heartier, but I have a hard time, when just looking at them, telling if it is a Mexican or a California.

(I assume in the very mature ones, the ones with the big, fat trunks are the Filiferas and the long, skinny ones are the Robustas, but I was checking if there were other distinguishers, especially in younger ones).

Thanks!!

abqpalms-

Just this past weekend I took a little drive down the the Valley to look at the Saguaro and see how it's coming through this winter. It looks fantastic! I couldn't see any frost damage whatsoever. This has been a pretty mild winter, but we had that really bad cold snap back in December. I've seen a saguaro in another location in town. It's in a (usually) gated lot on north 4th St. in the North Valley, just a block or two north of Garduno's. There is also a Washingtonia there as well. I haven't gone by to take a look in a long time, so I don't know how it has faired. It's much smaller than the one south of Rio Bravo.

As for the difference between W. robusta versus W. filifera, the basic rule of thumb I've always followed is that there is a purplish tinge at the bottom of robusta petioles, whereas filiferas do not have this coloration. Also, and I may be wrong, but I think robustas generally have more teeth along the petioles than filiferas. At least this is the case with my Washingtonias.

cd

The saguaro photographed in Albuquerque's S Valley is at 4305 2nd St SW, which is south of Rio Bravo in front of a home. It is on the west side of 2nd, which is a junky area so typical of Abq, with a mix of poorly-kept industrial and residential uses.

I have heard many reports of various plants over Albq, like paloverdes and saguaros, but no one can ever get me any documentation or photos. Those are so important. When I check on them, either I cannot locate the place in questions or when I do, the plant was just installed or in a pot...not much to evaluate there. Thank goodness for this group...

abq palms----- the most reliable way to tell W. fiferas from W. robustas, esp in smaller specimens like 15 gal or so ----- the fifera fronds are covered in fine threads (fifera means "thread bearing") Once you see them side by side in a nursery, you'll readily tell the difference.

Hi guys, I used to live in El Paso and I go there every year to visit my family. I noticed on the spring of 2005 that they had planted young queen palms (Syagrus romanzoffiana) in North Mesa around Coronado High School outside of some shopping malls and I also saw them plant some near Festival on North Mesa as well. Surprising right? I was like "WHAT? THESE WILL NOT SURVIVE HERE" and yes,

I went to visit in the winter and they were FRIED. They did not come back on spring... I guess you can't stretch it that far!

BUT my mom owns a Bougambilia plant that we used to have in a pot. We bought it on 2000 and it grew too large very quickly. We had to plant it outside on the floor. At first we used to bring the plant inside during the winter but then the plant got used to the weather and it started to survive the winters. Now that it is on the actual ground outside, it drops its leaves on fall, it dies... but on spring, it sprouts again from the ground. As I understand these plants are mainly tropical and subtropical. I've seen some houses grow them as well, however they always protect them or cover them during the winter. We don't cover ours anymore we just cut the dead part after it stops freezing (we leave the dead part to protect it from frost during the coldest days). I live in the upper valley (coldest area of El Paso) right on the country club. It may be the coldest area of El Paso but there are a LOT of very old trees in this area and it protects the floor from severe frost. In the mornings you can see the areas not shaded by the trees frosted, and the areas under the trees are just wet. We plant washingtonias and phoenix as well (on the ground outside) and they never die we always prune them even in the coldest winter, but they are under trees. We also have tropical hibiscus, overgrown geraniums of all colors (pelargoniums) some are like two to three feet tall, hidrangeas, birds of paradise (strelitzia reginae), gardenias and jazmines. The hibiscus, geraniums, and gardenias are on pots (we bring indoors for like the months of december and january), the birds of paradise, elephant ears, hidrangeas, azaleas, and jazmines are on the ground and they die in winter but they come back in spring. We've had them for about ten years and they grow very healthy. Hidrangeas can be beautiful, they bloom different colors every year. You just have to experiment with different plants in your specific area. Some do better facing the north, some do better facing the west, usually in my area no plant ever does good facing the east for some reason. They like the western afternoon direct sunlight, even when it is 100 degrees you just have to spray them with water at nights like a religion or else they fry. I'd say the key to planting in El Paso is trial and error. Because some areas get more dry roasting sunlight (which actually kill a lot of sensitive tropicals and small annuals) and some areas like upper valley are just a bit more humid which helps during the dry hot summers. In the winters too, some areas get the frost directly from the winds, other areas are protected by either the mountain or many canopies of trees. THERE ARE AREAS of trees in El Paso even though it is a desert. It's like an oasis in a way. I'm lucky to live there because when it is 110 near the mountain it's 90 under the trees and TRUST ME it makes a difference. When it snowed on 2007 everywhere in El Paso the snow accumulated to two inches, in my house it didn't accumulate at all because the ground wasn't cold enough. The grounds during the winters don't freeze here. I don't know if it is because we have lots of evergreen trees, we have three magnolia trees, and about ten large 'trueno' trees (Ligustrum lucidum) which are always green. Hope this helps you get some inspiration to grow a nice garden! I'll post some pictures next time I go to El Paso.

palobsession 8 --- Do post phots some time. Your family's place in El Paso sounds beautiful. I, too, have had success with bouganvilleas surviving the winter at my place west of Las Cruces. Much of the plant dies back but re- emrges from the low trunk and roots in Spring. This happens in parts of Tucson as well, but their winters are so short and mild that the bougeys recover faster.

just a reminder that the Centennial Museum at UTEP in El Paso is having their annual native plant sale this weekend April 26-27, 2008. It is awesome, with a great variety of xeric plants at great prices!