Rrrrrrrrrrgh! I had a whole reply going, and then Internet Explorer screwed up on me and I had to force quit and lost everything! >=( thanks for letting me get that out of my system. . . as I was saying. . .

I really love your idea, and I think it will look really great! What kind of fish do you want to keep in the aquarium part? Or will it be 'just' plants?

In terms of practicality, I would not try to do a pool at the bottom of the waterfall to hold fish. I speak from personal experience when I say that it is VERY hard to make this work! I originally had my waterfall supplied with a small hidden resovoir of water, and let me tell you, you can't tell where the water will splash or how it will run, so you could easily be loosing half of the water that comes down the waterfall every few seconds, causing your resovoir to run dry very quickly! It will be MUCH easier to just make the entire bottom a false bottom. That way your waterfall can never run dry, and you can make all kinds of complicated things work, like a small pool at the bottom, and stream or streams coming from that, and even a waterwheel if you wanted! It doesn't matter how much splashing you get, because it will all end up back in the false bottom. so unless you can figure out a way to have your foot deep pool connected to your false bottom without having the fish escape into the false bottom, just stick to a shallow pool for aesthetics and be done with it. Also, you could have PDFs or geckos if you only had a shallow pool.

Getting back to aethetics, try to keep things in scale. If you make your waterfall look like a mini mountainside with a huge roaring, gushing waterfall, then your fish in the adjacent tank will look like massive whales or sharks in the ocean. Try to keep it more simple, like tiGG's terrarium on the gallery side. Mine looks like a mini mountain because I used lots of small pieces of slate. I now wish I had thought it through and done it differently, though it still looks good and I will leave it that way. The easiest thing will probably be to sculpt something from the pink styrofoam insulation (nice and smooth, easy to carve) or expanding foam that you spray in. That way you can eliminate too many levels that create excessive splashing, which will be more of a problem for you because your tank is so tall. I would make it look like you took a small cross-section from a lake. On one side you have the lake with it's plants and small fish (I'm assuming), and then it turns into the bank of the lake (or river, I guess) where the ground happens to drop off and some water from the lake spills over and creates a tiny waterfall that turns into a stream that runs through some lush woodland or tropical vegetation. Ferns are the ideal plants for this look, and further plant choices will be dictated by whether you want this to look like a bit of the Amazon or the Mississippi. You can include some nice rocks or bits of driftwood if you like. If you like the mini-mountain look, then make sure everything is in a similar scale. You would want to use tiny rocks in your stream bed, very thin pieces of wood as your driftwood, and your plants would need to look like mini trees and shrubs.

Do you have experience with non-aquatic plants? If so, are there any that you absolutely love and must have in your terrarium? Oh yeah, and before I forget, you will not need as strong of lighting in the terrarium tank as you need for your planted aquarium, because of course there is no water blocking the light. And if you do want PDFs or geckos, make sure you take their needs seriously. PDFs require at least one bromeliad plant, and geckos are generally arboreal, so you would need to provide them with some taller plants or hanging vines to climb on. I like that you want to make the ground level slope sharply, because this makes the landscape much more interesting. You will need an interesting landscape, because you will not be able to attach cork bark (or other) panels to the back wall for epiphytes to grow up, since of course there is no large back wall with the terrarium being viewable on three sides. My terrarium is also about 18 inches deep, and that really doesn't give you a lot of space to mess around with. You should be able to attach some epiphytes near your waterfall on that wall though. If you like orchids, go for it! There are lots of minis available that love terrarium conditions, and they will still need less light than your planted aquarium! If you do make a stream meander through your tank, keep in mind that the high point in your landscape needs to be in the centre because of it's viewing sides, and water is generally in the low part of the landscape. So don't run the stream right through the middle! Personally I think it would be cool to have the stream viewable from only one side of the tank. That would make it like a good sculpture, with things happening all around, so that you need to walk around it to fully appreciate it. Make sure you post pics when it's done!

Rrrrrrrrrrgh! >=( thanks for letting me get that out of my system. . . as I was saying. . .

ROFL, been there too. I have gotten to where I do it my word processor and paste it in my Browser. Then I have a copy if it crashes.

What kind of fish do you want to keep in the aquarium part? Or will it be 'just' plants?

There will be fish but I am not sure what. I am thinking I might get some more Australian Rainbows. I have even toyed with the idea of just having the fish store order me 50 Neons. :-) That would be a beautiful site. I always keep a school of Cory Cats in all my tanks. What ever I do I am keeping in mind when you walk in the front door this tank .... well tanks, it will be staring you in the face.
..... so unless you can figure out a way to have your foot deep pool connected to your false bottom without having the fish escape into the false bottom, just stick to a shallow pool for aesthetics and be done with it.

I have this one figured out!! :-) Its actually fairly simple. You build a typical false bottom just 12+ inches high. Then add a divider to create the bank, so to speak, of the pool. In this divider I can place holes as needed and put some type of grate to keep out the fish. Using a strainer that goes on an aquarium filter would work well. So you end up with the same water depth under the land as in the pond. Make sense?

I would need to decorate the divider to look like rock or dirt or something. Then I need put something on the glass to hide the water under the land portion. It could be as simple as black painted foam attached to the glass. I have not thought too much about this yet.

Also, you could have PDFs or geckos if you only had a shallow pool.

Thats the big drawback to the pond. I have not decided on what animals I want but I do like the look of PDFs and read about some other frogs that interest me. I have not looked into Geckos. So that may rule the swimming pool out. J Since I have an aquarium beside it, its not a must with me. But I have to admit I like being able to see above and below the water. And if I had Neons in both sides it might look like they washed down the waterfall? :-)

Getting back to aethetics, try to keep things in scale. If you make your waterfall look like a mini mountainside with a huge roaring, gushing waterfall, then your fish in the adjacent tank will look like massive whales or sharks in the ocean.

Thats something I had not thought of. I am thinking of using expanding foam and/or the pink sheets to create a hill and letting the water drop down the slope. I looked at your gallery photos and I like what you have. Its not what I have in mind thought. Still tossing it around but thinking round river stones embedded in the foam along the stream. And painting the foam to look like rock. Maybe? I sort of have an image in my mind.

Do you have experience with non-aquatic plants?

Practically speaking, little to none. My wife has always kept plants so I know some but I have never kept anything but some Impatiens in pots. I like orchids and have for years thought it would be fun to grow orchids. So that is sort of on my list. Otherwise I am wide open. I prefer something easy to care for. I really like minimal work and lots of admiring. But I am willing to put in some work! Especially for orchids.

I like that you want to make the ground level slope sharply, because this makes the landscape much more interesting.

I love the look of jamers. When I saw his that answered my problem about the tall tank, how to have a water fall etc.

If you do make a stream meander through your tank, keep in mind that the high point in your landscape needs to be in the centre because of it's viewing sides, and water is generally in the low part of the landscape. So don't run the stream right through the middle! ... so that you need to walk around it to fully appreciate it.

Now that is an interesting idea! I was thinking of making the water come down from one (back) corner and meander to the front of the tank. But your idea sounds interesting. I might start in the center so that you can see the initial fall and then let it turn so that the rest of the stream is only visible from the front.

I have no idea if this would work but what I have in mind is water literally falling in from over the top of the tank. High enough you cant see the source because it is hidden by the hood. Perhaps falling into a small pool then flowing down the hill to the swimming hole or small pool. I realize there is going to be a lot of splashing water but I am sure that is a perfect environment for something? Ferns maybe?

Make sure you post pics when it's done!

I will probably do a web site on it. I am sure I will have lots more questions. It will be at least a couple of months before start on this. We have to move in our new home Nov. 19th. Long story be we lost our lease on the house were renting. The new house wont be done but it close so we move in anyway. Needless to say I will still have a lot of work left to do. Finishing the house has to come before decorating it.

What could I possibly add??

Only this...you might want to consider salamanders either instead of or in addition to frogs. I've not kept any and don't know enough to speak with authority (other then a zoology degree and an "A" in herpetology...hehe) but I suspect that they would need very similar conditions and could probably handle a deeper pool as well. And just like frogs there are different types to suit different conditions.

Maybe it would be cool to have some sort of rock formation in the aquarium side that you could then duplicate on the terrarium side and have a bubbling spring be the source of your water...theoretically coming from the aquarium somehow? Fun stuff. Keep it up!

I wonder why you are still using IE when you could be using Firefox - It doesn't crash, and it doesn't get silly spyware.

Anyway, I like the idea of having normal fish if you can find some that look like sharks, like sunfish, like whales. I reckon it would be really cool to have 'bonsai' sharks :) (we all know that Bonsai really means plant in a pot ;)

If you want to make a 'bigature' (to quote Richard Taylor, LotR) then I can recommend using 3mm and 1mm LEDs for spots of light. You can drive them with a low voltage power supply and resistors. To waterproof them use some urethane or epoxy glue inside some heatshrink, then cook the heatshrink to make a good seal.

I'm working on a microscene like something out of LotR using plasticine for sculpturing and mosses to represent plants. I'll put photos up when I'm happy :)

Mr Breeze wrote: Maybe it would be cool to have some sort of rock formation in the aquarium side that you could then duplicate on the terrarium side and have a bubbling spring be the source of your water.

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OR!! Maybe a rock pile with water gushing out as if the aquarium had sprung a leak! :-)

Thanks for all the input. I am still tossing ideas around. Since I have a couple months before I can start it maybe I can decide on what I want.

I also think that Mr. B has a cool idea there. Or you might want to try kind of a reverse hang-on overflow. Saltwater tanks often use this system of filtration when they use a sump but the tank isn't pre-drilled with an overflow box inside. Do you know what I'm talking about? If not, talk to the people at your local saltwater fish store. Normally the water is flowing INTO the overflow from the tank and then going down into the sump, but you could just reverse the flow, without needing a sump, so that the water is coming up from the false bottom (would require the right plumbing, which would probably also involve drilling the tank) and then flowing into the tank, so that it appears the water is flowing out of the aquarium and down the waterfall.

Another animal suggestion I forgot about is a Fire-Belly Toad. They are really a frog, and have very attractive colours. You do need to keep them in small groups (just like PDFs), but they are better swimmers, and are semi-aquatic, so they actually require a larger water area than PDFs. I don't think they're excellent swimmers, so 12" might be a bit deep, but it might be okay if you have some emergent aquatics, like a large Amazon Sword. Actually, I just realized that if you make the pool 12" deep, it will visually divide the height of your tank exactly in half, and that is generally considered to be UNaesthetic. Thirds are more attractive, so you should actually make the pool only 8-10" deep.

I think that large schools of neons are absolutely stunning! They seem to be the perfect fish for planted aquariums. If you want things to look larger than they are though (the 'bonsai' fish idea), then cat sharks are a good choice. They will eventually grow huge, and I don't know if they're plant safe, but they really do look like mini sharks! They even have the smooth skin, unlike those so called 'Bala sharks'. Their scales are so big they look like normal fish, not sharks. Cat sharks are brackish when very young though, so that might not work. Perhaps a figure-eight puffer, which would also eat any snails that appear? I don't know, but cory cats are also great. Aren't they cute? =)

Oh yeah, if your entire false bottom is 12" high, then you are taking away lots of your wonderful height for the land part! You have the option for some nice taller plants if you keep the land level lower. Also, you will need to hide that false bottom, so then the terrarium tank will appear much smaller than the aquarium tank, and I don't know if you want that with them right beside each other. I have seen water dished for cats and dogs that have a small jug of water attached to the bowl. The jug can be full of water but it doesn't overflow into the dish. Perhaps you could do something like that, with the same principle? (whatever it is, I'm sure Nathan knows). =)

Nathan: I have a Mac. I would use Safari, which is better, but I don't like the way the bookmarks work, so I use Internet Explorer. I'll deal with it. =)

I know exactly what your saying about overflow boxes. I used one and a sump on my 65G Aquarium. I like the idea of sharing water in both tanks but the hassle of getting the water out of the terrarium would stop me. I know how but I have no way to drill a tank and what it would require to be done safely. There is no one around here that I am aware of that would drill a tank either.

I think I still get that look by hiding a water line in the hill. Running it up to the top of the tank or even above and keeping it out of site. I am thinking of building it of expanding foam. It would be easy to just foam around the pipe.

As for the water I am starting to lean away from a deep pool. I will have an aquarium so I think I will just leave this as a terrarium with a shallow pool. The false bottom should leave me enough capacity to keep the water stable.

I took a few minutes to night to try to sketchout a plan and realized that the water are was going to take up a lot of space. More than I really wanted. I had just tossed out the 12" dimension but you absolutely right. I am very aware of the rule of thirds. Among my many hobbies photogrpahy is one of them.

As for animals I am still looking. I looked at firebelly toad info today among many others. It's just so confussing! :-) I will probably, at first just work on getting the tank set up and plants established before buying any animals. Once I am happy that it is set up properly then buy some animals. That also gives me plenty of time to study up on the animals and make a choice.

As for the aquarium I have never figured out why people hate snails so? I keep a colony or Red Ramshorns in all my tanks. They popultion goes up and down as the tanks change. But I have never had a problem caused by them. But that's another topic.

One question is about moss. I love the look of a lot of green moss growing on ground. Always have. Any specie's stand out as better for a terrarium? I know we have a pretty native moss that would be easy to aquire.

Here is a photo of tank I really like the looks of. It's land scape is almost a V shape. I doesn't have a waterfall like I have in mind. But overall I like this geveral look.

Well I think that's very wise, waiting before deciding on an animal. So many people buy reptiles and amphibians on the spur of the moment when they see one that's 'cool' in the pet store, and then the poor things languish when the people bring them home because the people don't know what they're doing, and frequently the pet store employees don't, either! In case you're still interested, I've linked a good site for you below. The ones you'd want would be the Bombina Orientalis, the green and red one.

And yeah, I know that some snails aren't so bad, but my husband had a TERRIBLE infestation of them in his former planted Discus tank, and nothing got rid of those buggers. They were destroying his plants, and he even bought some clown loaches to eat them and they did nothing! So now I have that tank. It is my terrarium. =)

As for moss, there are definitely ones that work in terrariums and ones that don't. if you want PDFs, java moss is the way to go. It actually does much better on land than submerged in water, as long as it is kept constantly moist, which is the ideal PDF enivronment (very high humidity). Cushion moss, sold at Black Jungle, is also another good one. I am currently experimenting with various wild-collected temperate mosses, and some of them do very well while others do not. I find that they do best when collected in very early spring or very late fall. It is also very easy to find them at these times of year because they are the only green things in the forest! However, I don't know how they do long-term, because they are temperate, and may require a dormancy period, in which case they will simply decline and die after about 1.5-3 years. I haven't had my terrarium that long, so I can't report on that yet. You may be in luck living in the south though, because the mosses there would be ones suited to a generally warmer enivironment with much less of a dormancy period. You're probably still having fall now, right? Though your tank probably won't be set up in time. . . I wouldn't add any moss until you have your main plants in there, and then next spring go and collect small portions of a few different varieties. I don't know any species, just get ones that look different from each other. I have found that the ones that look most like sphagnum moss or like azolla do the best. I don't know why, but they are working well for me. But again, I don't know about the long-term. I do have some java moss in my tank now as well, in case all the wild moss dies, the java moss can eventually take over. Selaginella is a good plant that looks like moss, and it loves terrariums as well. Oh yeah, don't collect wild sphagnum, because it is already being over-harvested. If it's on your property then of course you're allowed to, but it's something to think about.

I like the tank you linked as well, though I'm too much of a plant-o-phile to stick to just a few broms! =) Love the moss over everything though. Makes me think of the mountains. . .

I have read some on fire belly toads and many others. I am still leaning toward the Dart Frogs but far from made up my mind. One important consideration is their singing! Since this is outside my bedroom door I don't want anything that will sing all night. :-) Me and frogs will be living in the basement if they do.

I am also interested in some type of small lizard maybe. But I have decided to set up the tank and get the enviroment right for the plants and then pick animals that will fit it. Since I really like the idea of orchids I am thinking frogs and/or salamanders.

Also thinking about skipping the swimming pool. Maybe a large shallow pool but not what I first had in mind.

As for the moss I really like the look of that!

As for snails, sounds like your hubby had pond snails. They die as soon as I see them. I have managed to keep them out of tanks. The Ramshorns don't harm anything.

I have two green tree frogs in my screenroom (a male and a female) and the male's singing never bothered anyone. My dart frog doesn't make any noise. I've visited some dart frog sites and none mentioned them making any loud sounds.

Dart frogs do sing, but it is not loud at all, and it actually sounds very nice. I think you can listen to it on www.poison-frogs.com, and see some movies as well.

Hi

I am new to this forum. I just started a 40 gallon tall tank for my PDF's about a month ago. I am linking a url of my tank and would love any suggestions on how to improve it. So far everything is growing fine the humidity and temp are correct but I am sure suggestions will help me make it better.

Betty

I'm going to transfer this to a new thread, okay? That way people won't get mixed up when answering two different questions on the same thread.

I've been reading through old posts and found yours. I like building things from scratch myself. See http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/terrarium/msg1201175512986.html?5 with photos. The plants are small yet and I've left some room for more plants.

If you have a chance to make something really big, consider finding salvage or new tempered door glass. There are some standard sizes like 30 inch by 76 inch or something like that. Tempered means it is safer, stronger and thinner and lighter than regular glass. I've done a little research into silicone glue and found that the commercial product is called GE RTV108 silicone. See http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/silicones/appguide/const_app.html If you know anything about this I'd like to hear about it.

One problem I'm considering is how to make easy access to a large tank. If it's more than about 30" deep I can't reach in to the bottom.

-----David in Chicago.