Just sitting here waiting for spring and hoping I won't be too old to do something ,come spring time.

Ewwww, a botanical garden!! How pretty!! Are you going to post pictures of it, even pictures of the designs would be nice??

Maternut,

I went out and planted 3 medium size blueberry bushes today. It really started to seem like a bad idea when the moist soil started freezing to the shovel (I ain't kidding). The wind was blowing really hard too. I had to get back in the trunck in between bushes to warm up.

Carolyn,

What plans I do have on paper aren't pretty enough to post. I have a few rough sketches/layouts on notecards and various pieces of crumpled up paper, but that's about it. Much of what little design I have is in my head. Hopefully, it will be an impressive place in a decade or so, but one has to use their imagination to see the potential greatness right now. It would probably help if I was more creative.

Today is going to be another cold one here. I think the high is 30, low of 15. Brrrr!!! Friday is suppose to be a high of 56!!

Busy planning my 1st hip replacement surgery (January 10th) & also busy with a very harsh divorce. Would have at least posted telling people how my hips are doing, but truthfully didn't want to give you any ammunition for future arguments i'm sure we'll get in to. I think we just have major clashing personalities or something. lol...On the topic of gardening, I am doing a round robin Christmas seed & card swap which should be fun! =)

Peace - Steve

Hey Brandon - congrats on planting the blueberry bushes. I just can't seem to get with it these days. Right now my focus is totally on my step-daughter's upcoming wedding - trying to get ready for the wedding itself and for some out of town guests.

My digital camera gave out so I 'had' to get a new one and thus far am real pleased with it - the old one was 7 years old and they sure have improved since then. I'll be anxious to get out and take some pics as soon as it warms up some.

Anything else you are planning to plant?

Frances

Steve,

Hope things go well with your surgery. I'm perplexed about how or why that could or would be used against you (baring nearly inconceivable complexities) in any kind of argument, but I have no desire to participate in any arguments with you anyway. Unless you are having a bionic implant and plan to jump me, I don't think either of us have anything to worry about in those regards. BTW, your last name isn't Austin is it?

I've probably never been through exactly whatever you are going through with the "harsh divorce", but believe me when I say I can imagine the situation you are in. The only thing I can say (which I realize is probably meaning less at this point) is that things really can get much better. Even though it may seem like everything is going down hill, years from now it may be much less painful and even seem more like just a growing experience. Time really can (at least in some cases) have a way of mitigating (not totally removing all traces of) the pain and emotions. Even situations that might lead one to question their desire to go on, can seem completely different a few years later.
______________________________________

Frances,

I'm still thinking about how crazy it was planting those darn blueberries in the middle of that blizzard. Every time I got back into the truck I started thinking that I must be going crazy. LOL

There's still a lot I need to do out there, but I think I'm gonna wait for a little warmer/drier weather. I did order some really awesome unusual tree seeds the other day. I guess I'll wait until at least early February to plant them. I do need to go by Knoxville seed and pick up some more pots for my seed rack.

I've thought about bringing your pot and Semps over a few times, but never seem to be able to predict the time enough for a proper advanced notice. I figure just popping in unannounced might not be the best idea. One of these days we'll figure something out.

What kind of tree seeds did you get??

I am still packing up the last for the winter sowers swap and I ended up scoring a chaste tree!! Of course no one asked for it so I kept it extremely happily.

Cercidiphyllum japonicum (Katsura) - not too uncommon, but still cool
Decaisnea fargesii (Blue Bean Tree)
Evodia daniellii (Korean Evodia)
Gymnocladus chinensis (Chinese Coffee Tree)
Hovenia dulcis (Japanese Raisin Tree)
Idesia polycarpa (Igiri Tree)
Maackia amurensis (Amur maackia)
Maackia chinensis (Chinese Maackia)

Here's what I have in my blueberry patch so far. They are the ones that, according to my research, should do well in this area.

Bluebelle - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)
Bluecrop - Vaccinium corymbosum (Northern Highbush)
Blue Ray - Vaccinium corymbosum (Northern Highbush)
Climax - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)
Delight - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)
Legacy - Vaccinium corymbosum x darrowii (Southern Highbush)
O'Neal - Vaccinium corymbosum x angustifolium, ashei, darrowi (Southern Highbush)
Ozark Blue - Vaccinium corymbosum x darrowi, ashei (Southern Highbush)
Powderblue - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)
Premier - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)
Tifblue - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)

Chinese coffee tree? That sounds slick! =) Hard to grow? I would loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooove even just a few seeds of it, if there's anything at all you're looking for on a trade. Please let me know.

Thanks! - Steve

Steve,
I would be happy to send you some of them if I had enough, but unfortunately I only got a very few. I did notice that J. L. Hudson, Seedman had that species and for a better deal than what I got.
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BTW, I was looking at my blueberry list above and realized there were a number of mistakes. I'm sure it probably won't matter to anyone not doing a study on blueberries, but here is the corrected list, just for the heck of it:

Bluebelle - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)
Bluecrop - Vaccinium corymbosum (Northern Highbush)
Blue Ray - Vaccinium corymbosum (Northern Highbush)
Climax - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)
Delight - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)
Legacy - Vaccinium 73% corymbosum x 25% darrowii x 2% angustifolium (Southern Highbush)
O'Neal - Vaccinium 82% corymbosum x 11% angustifolium x 4% virgatum x 3% darrowii (exact percentages uncertain)(Southern Highbush)
Ozark Blue - Vaccinium 13/16 corymbosum x 2/16 darrowii x 1/16 virgatum (Southern Highbush)
Powderblue - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)
Premier - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)
Tifblue - Vaccinium virgatum (Rabbiteye)

Well if one of mine don't germinate, I would love a cutting of one of the non hybrids this spring or whenever. Mine have at least 3 years to catch up so I am in no hurry.

I am so glad you found some good ones for your area. I will have to remember the names. I knew there were probably more than the 4 I found. Good job Brandon!!

I will have to write down those trees also. Are you going to winter sow them??

Carolyn, are you talking about blueberry seeds germinating? If so, and you are wanting them for the berries, I would strongly advise you to use cultivars (vegetatively propagated plants). It's unlikely that a seedling would produce fruit of anywhere near the quality or quantity of a cultivar. Also, do look at the Southern Highbush varieties. As with Northern Highbush varieties, only a few are likely to do really good in this part of the country, but Ozark Blue, for example, is thought by some to be the best cultivar for growers in Tennessee.

Brandon I typed up a big long thing for you, but I just deleted it all.

Lets just say this I strongly believe in saving seed. I strongly believe that keeping a species pure is the best option. I would do with out before I would grow a hybrid. That is how strongly I feel about it.

Here are the 2 I am going to sow December 21st:

Vaccinium Deliciosum (Cascade Huckleberry)
Vaccinium myrtillus (European Blueberry Huckleberry)

Both are low bush native huckleberry plants!!

I am still glad you found you a few plants for your area after our enjoyable emails and discussions on the vaccinium genus.

Carolyn,

Hybrids are nature's way of survival. Every higher species currently know is actually the result of hybridization. Every plant we ever discuss on this forum is actually the result of a hybrid. Species are only short-term semi-stable groups, often due solely to significant geographical isolation. Natures is fluid and "pure species" is only an artificial contrivance in the mind of man. A good example of this, that can be seen without having to look very broadly (in time or distance), is the oak. Almost no "pure species" oak specimen is ever found, except in areas where they are significantly geographically separated from other oak species.

Hybrid blueberries commonly exist in nature. The exact combination found in "man made" cultivars is supposedly unique, but the phenomenon is not. In most cases, the cross is only "unnatural" because a person, instead of an insect or other pollinating agent, transferred the pollen from plants picked out for specific traits. In other cases, the cross may be a result of two or more plants that don't naturally reside in the same areas.

Some people may think of the word "hybrid" as a bad thing because they think of the word as representing genetically engineered hybrids. This is a completely different topic, and I won't go into that at all, here, except to say that it doesn't apply here.

I also noticed that you emphasized the word native. Native status is a whole other ball of wax than hybrid status. A hybrid may be the result of two or more different natives, a native and an exotic, or two or more exotics. A native plant can be a hybrid or what is practically referred to as a species. An exotic can also be either.

Lastly, exotics (the opposite of natives) are not bad things. Most exotics get along well with native flora and fauna populations and do nothing to damage the environment or our health. Some exotics aren't so nice. These are referred to as invasives. Invasives are exotic plants that displace or cause damage to native flora, fauna, and/or environment. Invasiveness is somewhat relative, but, in general, significantly invasive plants (no blueberries, that I know of, fall into this category) should be avoided at all costs (at least in many people's opinions). I fall into the camp of those that try hard to avoid invasives (and very especially, the more virulent ones).

Unless you know something that I don't, hybrid blueberries are actually a very good thing. But, if Monsanto starts selling a patented variety, watch out. (-;

BTW, I'm not trying to patronize you or anyone by going through all these things. You may know some or all of them as well as I do, but I just went ahead and covered them to try to cover all the bases I could think of as I read your post.

Brandon, I read about the first paragraph of what you wrote. That was it, and no I don't plan to read anymore.

Just by that first paragraph it is like trying to tell me the sky is actually red not a light blue. That is how much I totally disagree with you.

Without reading any of what you said I think only a fool would let companies keep monopolizing seed production. Via being hybrid.

Heirloom or natives are not a form of being hybrid. It is God's way. Genesis, ...from every plant produces seed...

Brandon your lack of letting someone have an opinion or shall I say with crazy analogies or insulting someone from growing from seed or insulting someone that wants nothing to do with a hybrid MIGHT be why no one hits these forums.

In my opinion hybrids should be illegal, THAT is how bad I see them. They are worse than dern weed or pot or marjauana (how ever you spell it).

Companies want you to rely on them for their plants, they don't want you to learn how to save seed. In this economy do you really think bucking up someone else pockets is really smart. Stupid and anyone else that argues with that is about ignorant and that is how I TRULY see it!!!

Learn heirloom, learn to save your seed, learn the difference in between a hybrid, native, and heirloom. Learn to grow from seed. Don't hate because you don't know how.

Oh and I won't be back on this forum. So if you reply don't expect a response. It won't be happening!!

Carolyn,

Nothing in my post was meant to make you feel even the slightest bit uncomfortable. There is very little opinion included and most of it was just scientific fact. You are more than welcome to debate or question anything you found wrong with what I wrote. Apparently you don't understand something (possibly just the definitions of the words we are discussing) and are frightened (for some reason which I find hard to even understand) to consider that.

As for this forum being slow, unfortunately it's one of the more active regional forums on Gardenweb! And, just for your info, the forum that I am most active in (the tree forum) is among the most active of any on this entire site!

Ok I lied, I am responding!!

Scientist also say the earth was created by a BIG BOOM. That there is no GOD. Does that mean it is true??

The Big Bang (or your version of it) has nothing to do with hybrids. Natural hybrids are just obvious facts of life. You see them every time you go outside whether you know it or not. If you believe that God made nature, then questioning hybrids is actually questioning His creation. Again, I think you must be misunderstanding what the word means. Otherwise, your concerns don't make sense to me.

You mean questioning seed saving is questioning the bible brandon??

But your right, the bible is wrong and so is the entire internet and everyone that saves seed!!

Here is another post that I have recently posted to a thread in regards to someone commenting pretty much like you did about a few native bushes. We were talking about natives and someone brings up an apple tree and like you they believe cuttings is the ONLY way for everything. They even went far as to say heirloom apple tree. So you will notice fruit trees being discussed in here. This is all factual and anyone reading this can research it all. I will post a few websites to back it all up.

"To me heirloom is of course a tried and true. Which means open pollination, which simply means that the item in question needs to be pollinated by insects or other means like someone hand pollinating it. Tried and true for generations to me means that it is grown from seed and tried over and over again and it still comes true while being open pollinated unless it is crossed. Melons or Curcurbit can cross within half a mile. Beans and peas do not cross. Tomatoes excluding hybrids potato leaf and currant will not cross. This simply means that if a plant is open pollinated and it is tried and true. That to me means that it produces TRUE seed. Heirloom, tried and true!!

In regards to an apple tree, most actually have to have 2 types of apples in order to produce fruit. Now if you are going to try and gather seed you can't very well gather seed without an apple.

If natives did not come TRUE from seed regardless if it is a bush, shrub or a flower. Then how do they reseed out in the wild??

1 criteria of winter sowing is if it reseeds then you can winter sow it. Callicarpa americana is a native. Native means that it is distributed in its area by means of wind or birds or human distribution. Euonymus americanus is another native. Both are shrubs and both come true from seed. IF they are not crossed. Now granted if I was to have 3 types of callicarpa they would not come true from seed, and the ONLY option would then be to propagate from cuttings to get a true plant.

Hybrids, the only way to propagate a hybrid is to propagate from cuttings. Some say that if a hybrid sets seed then you can grow it. It is possible in 3 years of saving the seed after 3 generations you may get a stable strain. That to me is not worth it. So I don't mess with hybrids.

PawPaw is a native tree that produces fruit, which produces seed, which is true.

Mulberry is a tree that produces fruit that produces true seed.

There are a lot of fruit trees that actually produce true seed, there are a lot of shrubs that produce true seed. What you have to be aware of is simply: Is there anything that it may have crossed with?? Is it a hybrid??

If people learned botanical names instead the description then this would make seed saving a heck of a lot easier in my opinion. The botanical tells you a lot. Just because you can grow it from seed doesn't mean it will produce true seed. That is why heirlooms are sought is because they DO produce true seed if not crossed.

Here is my favorite website on seed saving!! "

If this is not enough I also have a thread on the heirloom forum. That thread is where I am asking questions. Cause to be honest it is confusing.

See brandon I just didn't want to take it this far but really you left me no choice. Sorry, cause I do like you!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Seed Saving

Carolyn,

When you say I'm wrong (in this case), you are saying that practically every biologist on the face of the earth has misunderstood the subject. You are saying that every high school level, and especially every college level, plant biology book is wrong. You are claiming that what anyone, who has really looked into growing species oaks, has seen with their own eyes is wrong.

I understand (at least I think I do) some of the things you are worried about. But, I think you are misunderstanding the basic facts underlying your own concerns. If you really check out the nature of hybridization, you'll find that there's much more to it than you found in your basic dictionary definition. The definition is not wrong, but it's like trying to compress an encyclopedia article into a sentence; it just doesn't really do the meaning justice.

Many people worry about genetically engineered hybrids, and I don't necessarily blame them. Even though I'm not sure the danger is as great as some would claim, I still recognize that something could go seriously wrong. I don't think this is anywhere near your total concern, but I do think it's probably a part of it.

The heirloom plants that you grow are actually the result of hybridization. Take tomatoes for instance. Natural-hybridization has resulted in the species itself, and human-selection and human-hybridization has resulted in plants that produce larger and tastier fruits. Now, when you go get a pack of tomato seeds labeled "hybrid", that's a little different. It is still the same hybridization, but the seeds you are getting are the direct result of a cross (this is called the F1 generation). I think that is one more small piece of what you are concerned about. F1 (or I'll make up the name "recent hybrids" for an attempt at clarity) do have some downside. Especially the concern you have about some of their offspring not coming true-to-type.

I think there is more that I could probably cover, but since you may not even really read this far, I guess I'll stop for now. I do hope that, if you want to further discuss the topic, you would try to do so in a calmer (sorry but I don't know what other word to use here) tone. Like I said before, you are welcome to believe whatever you want and you can debate anything I say, but I would rather discuss it in a more "friendly" manor.

Below is another thread where I am the one asking questions about heirlooms. It is pretty confusing to anyone wanting to get into saving seed. I hope this also clarifies it.

Brandon also you may want to scroll up just a tad cause I think I posted another post while you were posting your response.

To respond to your recent post, I think you are greatly misinformed. You are simply calling the bible a bunch of lies.

kjv
"Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

Brandon, lets just say this if it is good enough for GOD then by george that is good enough for me. Are you now going to tell me that means something else.

Now if that verse alone does not dismiss your statement then brandon I am sorry but there is no hope of you ever understanding, cause simply you CAN NOT get a true seed from a hybrid!!!!!!

Here is a link that might be useful: heirloom seed questions

Carolyn, nothing in this thread (or any other post of mine) will even mention anything in the Bible being wrong. Actually, because it is against TOS rules to really discuss religion in the plant-related forums, I find it is best for me to avoid the subject when possible, anyway. I am tempted to go further with this dimension of the discussion, but unfortunately this is just not the medium for that.

I am a little surprised by some of your comments in your second to last post. Some of them appear to me to go against what you have claimed. Also, even though I agree with some of what you wrote, there are places where I disagree with you and places that I think you are mistaken. Your post is pretty long, so I am only going to cover one topic for now.

You claim that hybrids don't come true-to-type. I believe that, in your post, you are mixing terms from two different lines of thought so that it accidentally blurs the accuracy of what you are saying. In one way, the vast majority of hybrids actually come true-to-type almost as well as "pure" species would. For an example, if you cross a hybrid oak (choose any native natural-origin oak in your yard) with another similar hybrid oak (choose another oak with a similar genome), the offspring will very likely be similar to the parents. The offspring will not be true-to-type as would the seeds from a natural variety (biological, not colloquial meaning) or seed-reproduced cultivar, but they would produce a similar tree much like a "pure" species. "Pure" species trees also do not produce true-to-type (as this term is most often used for discussing varieties and cultivars). The offspring is a variant on/of the parent's make-up. This may seem like a bunch of technicality, but if you look at the real meaning of it, I think you'll see that hybrids aren't SO different than what we humans consider species.

Now, "recent hybrids" (my made-up word for F1 and similar hybrids) do often appear very different. Although technically, this type of hybrid could be between two very similar individuals and result in a similar offspring, it's not usually the case (at least in the cases we recognize, like when we plant seeds labeled as "hybrids").

Hybridization is a pretty broad topic and is about much more than what most people off the street probably realize. Hybrids can range from the extreme of the cross of two cultivars or varieties of the exact same "pure" species to the other extreme of a cross of two entirely different families (biological, not colloquial meaning). Hybrids between everything except members of different families are very common in nature and are undeniably a natural part of nature. Without mutation and hybridization, plants and animals would not be able to survive the multitude of changes that nature throws at them.

Well, I said only one topic, but I'm going to hit one more easier one before logging off. I grow pawpaws (both at a large test plot, at my farm, and at my home). I've been involved in studies on pawpaws. Believe me, they don't come true-to-type. There is not as much off-the-street apparent genetic diversity as with say apple trees, but their offspring usually vary considerably from the parent tree. I don't even know why I picked that point to discuss, I guess I just did it for my pawpaws.

I was going through my email and I re-read what you wrote, that I thought was so bad. I had actually misread it earlier. I guess your posts had gotten so heated that I thought you had taken the next step. Anyway, please scratch that part of what I said above, a few posts up.

Simply the fact is hybrids do not come true from seed!!

A plant genus does not come from a hybrid but it is the exact opposite!!

If you actually could provide 1 thing to back you up, I mean you do realize I have provided several, I may actually start reading your entire post, lol.

Till then, it is like hot air in the wind.

Apology accepted!! And i posted that before I read that!!

"Simply the fact is hybrids do not come true from seed!!"

The simple fact is you have refused, so far, to consider the ample proof.
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"A plant genus does not come from a hybrid but it is the exact opposite!!"

This one is well documented in any college freshman level biology book. But here's one random example (there are also many many more with known parentage in the Quercus genus), but, as I stated earlier, the phenomenon can also be seen throughout higher-level species of plants and animals.

Quercus alba x Quercus bicolor = Quercus jackiana
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"If you actually could provide 1 thing to back you up..."

More general evidence can be found in any college freshman level biology book, but here's one from Wikipedia's article on oaks (and before you start on it, evolution in this context has nothing to do with humans, so no need to even go there). This same thing occurs throughout higher life forms, but is more easily seen in oaks than in some other life forms because of the speed and frequency with which it occurs.

"Frequent hybridisation among oaks has consequences for oak populations around the world; most notably, hybridization has produced large populations of hybrids with copious amounts of introgression, and the evolution of new species."

Most modern day species have not been around for very long. They came from somewhere and that somewhere was through processes like mutation and hybridization of extinct and older extant species.

OT :I sure wished my zone would quit disappearing!!

Anywho, I still do not see any link, only more hot air!!

Provide a link that I can click on!!

I provided proof to back up everything I claimed, now if you are not clicking on the links and reading the information given to you to prove I am right and you are wrong. Then I will be extremely harsh here, pack up your computer and donate it to someone else than can utilize it for the method and purpose it was intended for!!!

Brandon, I hate to say I told you so but I did. It's not about proof. It's about what she WANTS to believe. No amount of proof is going to satisfy her. You're tilting at windmills to even try.

I am getting the strong feeling that this conversation is unlikely to result in much, regardless of what factual information is given. On top of that, it's not accomplishing my goal of not being bored.

Carolyn, I think you are on your own from here on. It's not doing anything for me to keep the conversation going, and I don't think you are getting anything out of it either, so I think we should just stop it here. I don't mind answering questions for people that want to know something or giving my ideas occasionally, and I love learning from reading about everyone's experiences and reading their advice, but this is not what I'm here for. Best of luck and happy gardening!
________________________________________________

Amanda,

I hope you can make it to the ETPS this coming spring. Unless I'm wrong, it would be your first! The swaps are always so much fun. Everyone that comes is friendly, there are always tons and tons of interesting plants, and we'll probably even have a great meal.

Hey Brandon.
Shoot me an email and some pictures. Or send me an address and I can try to Google it. Arial view.
I'm pretty good at design work. Or at least I think I am. ;)
When the weather warms up maybe the hubby and I can meet you at your site.
~Karen

Karen,
Maybe you guys can drop by after the plant swap.

Plant swap????? Brandon or Karen, has there been a date set yet?????

Frances

Yes, but some details still aren't worked out. Almost certainly, it will be at New Harvest Park on Saturday, May 28. Very tentatively, setup will be at 9:30am, swaping will begin at 10:00am, lunch will be at 11:30am, and a presentation will be at 12:00. We're still really just at the coming-up-with-ideas stage on the presentation.

that sounds great Brandon! If I'm at all able physically, I plan to be there. REALLY missed seeing everyone at the fall swap :-( Thanks for all that you do towards the swaps, and now a thank you to Karen also.

Frances