Hi Greg

I may be way off track here but the way I look at it is that the speaker is right.
Folks need to understand that if someone does not want to do something then they have the right not to.
Folks that are doing something need to do it because they want to, not because they feel obligated to.
ThatÂs the problem with the whole concept of the modern Christmas, "obligation.
ThatÂs is what the merchants count on too, every year this happens and it makes me sick.

Folks have the gall to say things to me like, "you donÂt have to worry about Christmas you donÂt have kids to buy for and, "what do you put a tree up for, you donÂt have kids?

To folks like this I say, they are totally out of touch with what the whole concept of the holiday is about, lost in the maelstrom of commercialism and greed, as they were so obediently taught to do.

My rule of give and take are simply give because you want to just to for the act itÂs self not to get something back.
When I cook for my friends they are to sit back and drink their beer and enjoy the time off from chores, I donÂt ask for help and wonÂt accept any.
My reward is to sit back and watch the camaraderie that takes place and know that I helped make it happen.
You take things graciously and you should not feel obligated to give in return, thatÂs what good friends are for and I have had some for over 25 years.

This concept is to go on all year not just on Christmas.

As for making things for gifts I have done it and will do it again.
What person wouldnÂt want a nice bookshelf that will last them the rest of their life or a BBQ pit that they always wanted but could not afford?

(Texas BBQ pits can get rather large.)

I have friends that do the same for me and I will always cherish these so called homemade gifts for a long time to come.
These are things that truly come from the heart of a true friend.

Worth

The "speaker" you're refering to so politically correctly, was offering Mary something that would last her forever and what Martha was doing would last a few hours. She had her priorities in the wrong place, like many of us. She only saw the here and now and Mary was more interested in the future.

the "commercialization of Christmas" has been an issue for certain folks since before I was a kid in the 50's - there's those who think there should only be christian celebrations of one persons birth, and those who see it as a festival to celebrate the transition from the declining light towards a new spring - greenhouse growers around here use it as the starting point for preparing to plant their tomatoes!

where I come from the speaker woulda been in the kitchen w/ everyone else, keepin the cooks entertained

ya'll just have as good a time as yer situation allows, and do what makes you and yours happy!
take care of each other :)

Bill

Big Mike,

I am just being careful about the wording I use to avoid censorship by the caretakers of this forum. Its not what you think; I have no interest in being PC.

My thought about this come from some unusual internal experiences that I have had lately that have made me believe that I am experiencing a special time of grace. It also occured to me that this is the Christmas season and so I wondered if the season is somehow, in part, the cause.

Then we I reflect upon the frantic Martha I can't help but wonder if she is missing out.

But even so someone has to cook ;-)

Greg

She for sure was missing out. While Mary was learning greater things, Martha was too concerned with making sure everything was just right, and he didn't really care. He knew that the food and drink she was frantically cooking up was only secondary to what he offered. We do the same thing at Christmas by chasing around to all the parties and family get togethers and spending untold millions on gifts that won't make it a year or will be returned. It's a far greater gift to empty your coin purse or pocket into the Salvation Army kettle than to load up on all the X-Boxes on the market.

Here's a thought.

I was talking via phone to a sweet little (8 years old) friend named Lucy, and she asked me if I was going to be at mamma's Christmas eve. When I told her I probably wouldn't make it, she persisted in wanting to know for sure and then told me she needed to know because she wanted to get a gift for 'everyone' there. I explained that I really didn't want her to get me a gift, but 'would' really like and enjoy it if she would color a 'new' picture for the refrigerator and give me a big hug. Could she handle that?

"Sure!" was her prompt reply and there was a big smile in her voice. She's know she's making me something I will really really like and really really enjoy for a really long time.

Big Mike, I sure understand what you are saying...so much 'stuff' bought that means so little. Unless I can eat it, hang it (pictures), grow it, tie a tomato to it, bathe in it, or smear it on my dry skin, I probably don't want or need it. I hate storing unused/unwanted/unneeded gifts and then disposing of them properly later. It's such a waste of the givers time and money. Give me a bag of Hershey's kisses (if ya gotta 'buy' me something) and a hug, and I'll be happy.

Worth, Can I at least pay the postage on that Texas BBQ?

Sue...who has it all except for a 'Texas BBQ'

Worth,

It looks like you have a customer.

chemocurl,

"I hate storing unused/unwanted/unneeded gifts and then disposing of them properly later. It's such a waste of the givers time and money."

I have 3 girls under 6 (and one on the way feb 22nd) and they get so much cheap plastic junk (that they love) on all birthdays and Christmas that we have piles of the stuff.

We never need to buy them anything but when we do its off to the dollar store ;-)

Greg

I don't think I get the story with Martha and Mary, but giving gifts is important in our family. We have 3 children, and we started the tradition of going to the dollar store and picking out gifts for each other, we don's spend a lot of money, but these are the gifts the kids are most excited about because they bought them themselves. They are more excited about giving these gifts then receiving. We still make gifts too. I will be giving my brother and sisters pedigree charts and other information I have gathered about our ancestors. I became interested in geneology when my grandmother passed away this past Spring, and I wnated to get information about her before all those who know about her parents and childhood are gone too. The same with my Grandpa. Anyway it has lead me on quite the adventure. I had no idea about some of my ancestors. I have poored over census records and other information on-line and I hope that my family will appreciate the gift I will be giving this year. I do get stressed though sometimes when I think of everyone on my list---in that sense I get caught up in commercialism---it is hard not to---and when one does that is is easy to momentarily forget the Spirit of Giving or Sprit of Christmas. We try not to make a big deal out of gifts and keep it simple, even with the Santa Clause stuff, but occasionally commercialism can win us over.
I have kind of rambled. I'm not sure if I have made any sense.

Tyffanie

I see the above points, but, taken from another perspective. Who are Mary and Martha? We have large family gatherings, and all are expected to contribute and pitch in. It is a part of being a large extended family. In my experience, and in my way, if I were the speaker, I would have apologized to Martha, stated that what I was saying could certainly wait while WE prepare the food and drink for everyone else, then we could all enjoy the conversation.

I have a group of friends that have been incredibly generous with me, and I would like to think, they feel the same about me. Whenever we have gathered, the best of this group has always been generous with their time and effort, as well as their money, to insure that we all have a good time.

If, like Worth, the host expresses a desire for me, as a guest, not to participate in preparations, then I would sit back and relax out of respect for the hosts desire. I can say that I have had the pleasure of talking at family and friends get togethers with many distinguished speakers from Fullbright economists, Nobel laureates, college professors and several reverends to a Navajo medicine man and interntional diplomat and they all offered to help prepare the food so that all could enjoy the evening. That seems more generous than sharing knowledge with just one person.

Bob

Bob, Mary and Martha had a brother named Lazarus and the speaker was a dear family friend who was often misunderstood and ultimately murdered. In the era they lived, men did not do domestic chores and would have been shooed out of the kitchen if he tried. The lesson in this is; some things are just more important than the every day chores.

Why am I being so careful to not upset the censors? Can someone give me one good reason I shouldn't relate the story as it should be related? It's the only way it can be understood correctly.

Bob,

"Who are Martha and Mary"

I'll give you a hint. The speaker raised Lazarus from the dead. I believe he was a relative of Martha. :-)

Greg

Greg and Mike,

Thanks for the hints, I have managed to get the clue. I may have to reread some of my books, I appear to have forgotten some portion of it or the other.

On an aside, this is a terribly disappointing way to discuss this, isn't it.

Bob

Martha and Mary reference

I think Mike stated well the point.

Another way to say it or think about it;

"things" take care of themselves
if you worry about "things" you can/will miss the experience

a recent example in my life would be - my son wanted to go out in the snow and play but I was worried about it being windy and cold that morning so I rationalized I needed to clean and when I was done it would be warmer out. When I was done most of the snow had melted and he missed the experience for "things" I worried about.

in relevance to gift giving;
I find it is the event of giving and receiving that matter more than gift itself

beware of your motives for giving

"In the era they lived, men did not do domestic chores and would have been shooed out of the kitchen if he tried." although in typical male fashion he was willing to barbecue (some fish on the shore)! Joe

You do remember that when he fed the 5,000 it wasn't with quiche and tofu. It was man fuel; meat and bread. The meal would have only been better if the small boy's lunch he borrowed would have had a bowl of gravy in it.

and tomatoes too.

I thought it was fish, not meat, but I may have it confused with something else.

sue

Fish: the other white meat

Good one!

Thanks for clearing things up.

Sue

Once again the word has been misinterpreted.
That wasnÂt a boy with 2 loaves and three fishes, it was a boy taking orders for the (Two Loaves and Three Fishes catering company), that was located on the south shore of Galilee near a famous roman country club and bath house.

I hear they made a mean chicken fried steak also.
I also have reason to believe JudasÂs name was on the tab.

I just thought I would clear that up.
Lord, "forgive me for my unorthodox sense humor.

Worth

the real questions

was there a gratuity of 15% extra for parties of 12 or more?

did anyone look in the fish for extra coins?

Wouldn't it be an automatic 20% for a large group?

I am not sure about fish with gravy, just an aside.

By the way, Greg and Mike, thanks again for the reference, it has been a long time since I read that book, and apparently lost that reference, definitely something to think about.

Just a bit of trivia, since we cruised into the subject of loaves and fish. Did you know that the loaves mentioned were actually about the size of a canned biscuit? Also, the fish were small, dried whole fish a little bit larger than a sardine. Just about what a small boy would eat for lunch.

would that be the big flaky biscuits or the small crumbly ones?

kinda makes that whole gravy thing all the more important

The little ones that are 3 cans for a dollar not the Pillsbury Grands. See there, I wasn't totally off my rocker about the gravy.

5000?
Im not so sure it was a "small" boy Big Mike.

Mmmm Fish...

the pope had some resent words on the subject.

Too much, Hortist

Still relevant for a week or so ...

Bill,

I keep my lights up until February ;-)

Greg