E.g. while the potato was brought to Europe by the Spanish conquistadors, the monarchs of Europe discovered the nutritional value of the potato only during the early 18th century, and ordered it planted from then on. Some people might not have been "conditioned" to digest these foods. Interestingly, nightshades are amongst the least tolerated vegetables and we known that they can cause a number of autoimmune diseases or hypersensitivity such as arthritis symptoms, IBS etc. for quite a number of people.
I think we all know that the outbreak of blight wrecked havoc amongst the population of Northern Europe (no, not only in Ireland but vast regions of Europe were affected). But people noticed that blight was not an issue or contained around copper plants and thus, an effective remedy against blight was found. Unfortunately, the heavy use of copper or copper salts and soaps had a devastating effect and caused copper poisoning, brain damage and many times early death of vast numberd of Northern Europeans. Copper is the oldest remedy against blight and other fungal diseases and even today is not stricly regulated by government authorities, which to me is a crime. Commercial organic farmers use copper and needless to say they use a lot. Like lead, copper is a heavy metal that will penetrate your brain barrier and accumulate, and will be toxic above certain limits. Almost anyone of my clients who eats so-called "organic produce" suffers from excessive copper accumulation in their bodies. If you want to use copper be vary careful and only use products such as Soap-Shield, developed in Germany and sold by Garden's Alive in the U.S., quote:
Less copper! In our own field and lab tests, Soap-Shield was effective at much lower concentrations of copper than other copper-based products.
As Carolyn mentioned copper is not all that effective. One of the most effective methods of delaying tomato disease is to start plants early under good conditions. I use metal halide lights with Kawasaki bulbs and cool basement conditions which keeps the plants strong and stocky. It is very important to prevent early fruit set by removing all flowers until plants are well established in your garden (2 to 3 weeks after transplanting). This might sound excessive and you will miss 2 weeks of the first harvest rush but healthier plants make up more than what you loose later.

Yes, I mentioned that in the other thread and also mentioned that there was increasing concern about accumulation of Cu in the environment, which you've taken much further in your post.

Carolyn

Well then, as a descendent of Slavic ancestors, should I be overly concerned about my indordinate fondness for roasted turkey and boiled corn (maize) on the cob? Please don't tell me to go back to oxtail and barley soup :::gag:::

Bill

However, if you are of European descent and wish to have the diet of your ancient ancestors, I recommend acorns. They were an essential part of the early European diet. Try different oak trees to find the more tasty ones. Some have a lot more tannin bitterness than others.

Jim

Here are the FACTS:

This document is created from the CDA UK publication of the same name.
We Can’t Live Without It

Copper is one of a relatively small group of metallic elements which are essential to human health. These elements, along with amino and fatty acids as well as vitamins, are required for normal metabolic processes. However, as the body cannot synthesize copper, the human diet must supply regular amounts for absorption.

How Much Copper In Your Body?

The adult body contains between 1.4 and 2.1mg of copper per kilogramme of body weight. Hence a healthy human weighing 60 kilogrammes contains approximately a tenth of one gramme of copper. However, this small amount is essential to the overall human well-being.
How Does It Work?

Copper combines with certain proteins to produce enzymes that act as catalysts to help a number of body functions. Some help provide energy required by biochemical reactions. Others are involved in the transformation of melanin for pigmentation of the skin and still others help to form cross-links in collagen and elastin and thereby maintain and repair connective tissues. This is especially important for the heart and arteries. Research suggests that copper deficiency is one factor leading to an increased risk of developing coronary heart disease.

Do We Get Enough?

Until recently, it was generally believed that most people consumed adequate quantities of copper. However, modern research has shown that this is not the case. In the United Kingdom and the United States for example, many typical meals have been analyzed for their metals content. According to recent surveys, only 25% of the US population consume the amount of copper a day estimated to be adequate by the US Food and Nutrition Board of the National Academy of Sciences. Typical diets in the US provide only about half of this amount and some diets in mainly industrialized countries contain less than 40% of the recommended dietary allowance. In the United Kingdom, it is now recommended that the daily intake should range from 0.4mg/day for 1-3 year old children to 1.2mg/day for adults. In addition, more recent studies are suggesting that there are serious doubts concerning the adequacy of diets containing less than lmg copper/day for adults.

Barkeater, Joachim has posted here as long as I've been posting here, although not very often, and does have very strong opinions that he presents to folks here. That I will say. And his posts usually lead to lots of comments, that is true.

Carolyn, raised on a farm where my father used all sorts of noxious things back in the 30's thru 50's b'c at the time they weren't considered noxious. He lived until age 78 and died in 1985 of complications from Parkinson's Disease. Mom lived until age 86 and died in 2000 of her second heart attack, secondary to diabetes. I seem to be OK, that's a self assessment, LOL, and as a kid I too was exposed to all that dad used on the crops and in the orchards.

I have to agree in general terms with Joachim that excess copper can be a major problem. For comparison, vitamin a is a deadly poison. But we have to have a small amount of it to live. A similar statement can be made for copper, too much is a poison, but we need a small amount to live.

My big problem is so called organic users who spray copper in excess. I have been able to grow tomatoes some years with no sprays at all and other years with only one or two sprays for disease. I don't like the "spray once a week no matter what" ethos.

P.S. if you want to do your tomatoes a big favor, give them some micronutrients and feed them some organic material. 1 level tablespoon of boron and 1/8 pound of soluble zinc to 100 feet of tomato row is enough. Dolomite lime supplies magnesium which tomatoes also need. Rabbit manure is an outstanding source of just about everything a tomato needs to grow. Pay attention to the health of your plants and you won't have as many problems with disease.

Fusion

Water, btw, drunk in excess, will kill you too.

I think everyone is discussing real vs ideal. The reality is that as a race, we've survived our agricultural excesses. And it is these agricultural excesses that have allowed us to survive. On a global scale it becomes difficult to debate the use of inexspensive anycides that have delived viable crops that have staved off rampant malnutrition and starvation in desperate regions. Nowadays, it is not toxins or lack of food that increases death from malnutrion or consumption-effected disease, it is a breakdown in the food distribution chain.

Almost all drinking water goes thru copper pipes.

dcarch

But, even after reading up on the "corn" controversy, I remain unconvinced there is huge peril associated with folks of say northern European or sub-Saharan African decent eating squash, corn, potatoes, tomatoes, eggplant, and beans.

I agree that global nutritional concerns trump all these other theoretical hysterics.

Bill

In the United Kingdom, it is now recommended that the daily intake should range from 0.4mg/day for 1-3 year old children to 1.2mg/day for adults..

Hmmm, very interesting doctor. I wonder what the RDA of Cu⁺⁺ ion is for members of the Vulcan species. It would be logical to suggest that it is significantly greater than that for HomoSapiens.

Reg

> = < harmful than

actual affect of ingrediants

?

Born in 1935, I can vividly recall the 60's, 70's, and 80's
when at the urging of the nutritionalists I and my family gobbled up pound upon pound of trans fat laden margerine
in leau of the deadly natural product butter. Having crippled the dairy industry, the nutritionists forged on
to the poultry business, discovering that eggs contained deadly quantities of cholesterol.

Almost without exception, every foodstuff that I have ever enjoyed--red meat, coffee, liver, barbeque, white bread, candy, cake, pie, chocolate, soda pop, beer, wine, booze,
typically grown agricultural products as vegetables, fruits,
grains, cheese, milk, etc./etc./etc. ad nausium has been declared toxic and unsuitable for human consumption by the food police.

As we age most of us accumulate a modicum of wisdom regarding what is good for us, what is bad for us, what we should do more of or less of, and what we should absolutely avoid. And we also change in various ways to be able to
ignore some parts of our accumulated wisdom, so some of us smoke, drink too much, race cars in the rain at night, or whatever, and at one time or another I have done all these things.

Here are small thing I have learned: Disinformation, faulty or partial data, lies, exagerations, or minimizations of truth, will harm me most every time, perhaps severely-perhaps only in a trivial way. There is only one way out of this life. If I don't eat I will likely get hungry and possibly sick. I have not yet died of eating.

True science is based on fact-often fact and truth are
most difficult to distill from experience. Though science may sometimes be guided by a fortuitous accident or a conjecture IT AIN'T BASED ON OPINION!

I have been nursing the same 3 lb bag of copper hydroxide along now for over 8 years. At my present occasional usage rate it looks like I'll make another 8 to 10 years. I don't know how much gardening I will be doing when I'm 82. One notes a bluish film on fruit skins (very visable on tomatoes) upon usage. I wash this off.

********

(Here are small thing I have learned: Disinformation, faulty or partial data, lies, exagerations, or minimizations of truth, will harm me most every time, perhaps severely-perhaps only in a trivial way. There is only one way out of this life. If I don't eat I will likely get hungry and possibly sick. I have not yet died of eating.)

And I haven't died of eating anything yet, either, so while I do try to watch it a bit b'c of my diabetes and b'c that disease messed up my HDL and LDL values, I pretty much eat what I want to and most folks know that the basis of my diet is Dark Bittersweet Chocolate. LOL

(True science is based on fact-often fact and truth are
most difficult to distill from experience. Though science may sometimes be guided by a fortuitous accident or a conjecture IT AIN'T BASED ON OPINION!

Amen. And now putting on my scientists hat, b/c I was one during my professional career, I agree that science is based on fact, and that's fact as a result of doing experiments in a certain way with a certain population and it doesn't always represent what the story is for a very heterogeneous population who might have, for instance, genes that can influence this or that as regards metabolism of many things ingested or inhaled.

(I have been nursing the same 3 lb bag of copper hydroxide along now for over 8 years. At my present occasional usage rate it looks like I'll make another 8 to 10 years. I don't know how much gardening I will be doing when I'm 82. One notes a bluish film on fruit skins (very visable on tomatoes) upon usage. I wash this off.)

I'm not nursing any bags of anything, especially the Bordeaux mixtures dad used to use nor the parathions or malathions but I do think that if I were electing to use something for fungal diseases I might tip my hat more towards sulfur rather than copper if I weren't using Daconil. Just my own personal opinion, as all opinions are.

Carolyn

Please post any further rants where they are appropriate, such as: sanitarium.france.com.

T--clutching her microwave-cooked bowl of healthy non-instant oatmeal made with diet margarine, mock sugar, preserved raisins and skim milk. Burp. I will stick to my ribs and I can glow in the dark at the same time.

Years back, when we were young, my parents had arranged for us to be sent science kits each month from Edmond Scientific. My brother recieved a kit which had balloons and small metal balls. I don't remember what is was supposed to teach, but he was inflating a balloon that had the balls in it and well--we all know balloons--there was a back blow and the air shot back into my brother along with the metal balls which went down his throat and into his stomach. Decades later I got an early morning phone call from my brother who just HAD TO TELL ME that to his complete suprise and obvious delight--with a klip-klip-klip-kerplunk--the balls had finally, ehem, exited his body.

I am sure we all have or know brothers of this calibur. He did, btw, grow up to be a metalurgist and rocket scientist.

Decades later I got an early morning phone call from my brother who just HAD TO TELL ME that to his complete suprise and obvious delight--with a klip-klip-klip-kerplunk--the balls had finally, ehem, exited his body...

trudi_d 7, now I suppose that is a case of extreme anal-retentive behavior. I would presume his apt/house exhibits an impeccable state of cleanliness.

Reg