I'm going to try grafting Brandywine and Cherokee Purple this year.

Nothing to lose except some time, energy, and a few plants. Good luck with it. If they take and produce please let us know how it goes.

Dave

I wonder what would happen if you grafted a Big Beef to a Red Robin rootstock?

One big ol' tomato on a tiny plant? :)

Some questions (on purpose) :

1) Why are you grafting . What do you want to accomplish ?
2) What do you get :
---------(a) Scion fruits
---------(b) Improved, more scion fruits
--------- (c) fruits are influenced by the stock also ?

OK. More questions:

A--you use a vigorous indet as scion on a dwarf stock. What do you get ?
B-- you graft a scion of a given variety to the stock of the same variety. What happens ? Any benefits ?

Thanks in advance

Seysonn

"Hybrids have poor taste because they produce more fruits but the mineral content is less per fruit. The more fruits can’t keep up with the more roots.

Too many fruits on hybrids, even with more root-provided minerals total, less flavor per fruit. That’s why heirlooms taste better. More minerals per fruit. And the obverse, of course.
Duh!
So why graft?
Most hybrids have more extensive roots."

The post has a few "duhs" too many for an independent reader like me, and, looks like the same message was copy pasted in replicate for the post, so I'll try not to let the mantra get to me. But I disagree completely with the simple model being presented in it, so it's hard ;-).

By following the reasoning presented, all I have to do is pinch half of my hybrid's flowers and the tomatoes will be twice as nice since those vigorous hybrid roots will have so many tasty minerals forced forced into less tomatoes up with them. Why graft?! LOL

According to the quoted post, a home grown heirloom will be more nutritious than a home-grown vigorous producing hybrid. This is the sort of claim that while we heirloom obsessed would like to believe it, needs to be analyzed by the guys on mythbusters. It is a widely made claim, like was "the world is flat" was at one time, that seems to make sense to everyone who repeats it. Unfortunately there is no scientific consensus that I know of supporting these claims.

Sugars, for one, are produced upstairs, as well as nearly all the flavorful compounds we eat. Fruits are not just empty balloons roots fill with nutrients, or some sea salt would be a great equalizer at the time you ate them. Heirlooms can have more robust and diverse genetics than a carefully selected hybrid. It will have a different flavor profile reflecting the diverse genetics, which was probably selected for that flavor profile. The most flavorful compounds are usually interesting classes of organic molecules produced upstairs, and when the fruit is allowed to reasonably mature on the plant.

Just think of what would happen if breeders principal selection criterion were flavor. Heirlooms wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in Death Valley. OK, that's an exaggeration ... unless the hybrid is personally tailored to the individual's preferences which widely vary.

Read the new tomato book. The author did his own taste tests. Of many heirlooms and some hybrids, nearly the top scorer was Better Boy, my favorite hybrid too. He will regret publishing that and need to dig himself out a a hole *smile* of heirloom believers. Better Boy also holds the world record for yield per plant. LOL! (one LOL per duh, and no comment on the "It isn't so complicated" dig.)

Harvest, storage, and transport practices result in much of the poor taste in purchased tomatoes, which are principally hybrids. Also most grafted heirlooms are pumped up with too much water with the help of those hybrid grafted root stock. Whether hybrid or heirloom, an over watered tomato is something people do sense, unfavorably, however the heirlooms at the high end supermarkets are usually from grafted rootstock and businesses like anyone else selling heirlooms or bulk spuds by the pound.

PC

Edit: BTW I have one tube graft this season I made while screwing with a sharp razor. It took well, however, I regret making it since it delayed the maturity vs. my ungrafted CP and the yield if I got the season in is approximately 2/3 after correcting for the delayed maturity. My graft is not properly done, though because I buried the grafted union when I noticed the grafted plant scion was not geting as thick as the ungrafted, which in my experience always gives lower yield. So by burying it, I lost the Better Boy resistance but got more roots. Net, it will only yield about half since the season will get cut short due to yesterdays freeze and the mold problem, which interestingly affected the grafted plant more than the ungrafted CP.

This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Thu, Jan 8, 15 at 9:44

I apologize for the "Duhs". More than one was improper.

However, I see so many arguments against grafting just about not preventing leaf diseases, I get annoyed sometimes.

To your points...

If you reduced the fruits on your hybrids, they probably would have more taste. But the purpose of most hybrids is the mass productivity, so that might be defeating the reason for them.

Heirloom tomatoes always win taste contests. That's why people struggle to grow them. If there was ANY hybrid tomato that came even close to a Brandywine or Cherokee Purple, we would all mostly grow that.

Big Beef is the best tasting hybrid I know and the only use I have for it is on a salad with a lot of dressing.

I mentioned nutrients, but in the sense that fewer fruits on good rootstock produces more flavor. That is not just my opinion. Tomato flavor is mostly a result of more minerals in the fruit. The more minerals in the fruit, the more flavor.

Actually, the "upstairs" part is very important. Sugars are important, but if sugars were all there was, tomatoes would be cherries. The minerals are what gives the fruit complexity.

"Just think of what would happen if breeders principal selection criterion were flavor." Oh don't I wish... The hybrids are developed for uniformness, redness, productivity, and durability of shipping. They are NOT developed for taste.

It is the mass of productivity, in part, that has robbed commercial tomatoes of their taste. There is a limited amount of minerals, that create taste, in the soil. Too many fruits (as on hybrid tomatoes) dilutes the minerals per fruit.

There are some who think that a hybrid tomato of the best type grown in a bak yard will equal the taste of an heirloom tomato like Brandywine or Cherokee Purple.

Every taste test proves that idea wrong. Not any hybrid tomato, grown under equal conditions, will ever beat a good heirloom.

The main idea of a grafted heirloom is that a better rootstock will provide more minerals to more fruits per fruit. There may be some slight advantage to the rootstock's resistance to some root problems, but that is not my main argument.

My goal in growing a rafted heirloom tomato on hybrid rootstock is some greater overall productivity. If there is some minor soil-born resistance, great.. But I'm looking for more fruits with an equal amount of mineral uptake per fruit.

And yield per plant means nothing if the tomatoes aren't worth eating. The first day I tasted a Brandywine tomato, I pulled up all the Celebrity plants and threw them in the trash. And Celebrity was the "best-tasting" hybrid at the time.

I have read (in internet) that primary reason for grafting is disease prevention. The article said that grafting is a common practice , even mandate, in Europe and Asia, to eliminate the use of some chemicals that are harmful to OZONE layer.
In this respect US farmers and gardener are far behind..

Needless to say that productivity is also another reason for grafting.

Seysonn

While I think that there are some grafted rootstock benefits to soil-borne "disease" problems, I don't think that is the main benefit to MOST home gardeners in North America. Though any benefit is good.

"I mentioned nutrients, but in the sense that fewer fruits on good rootstock produces more flavor. That is not just my opinion. Tomato flavor is mostly a result of more minerals in the fruit. The more minerals in the fruit, the more flavor.

Actually, the "upstairs" part is very important. Sugars are important, but if sugars were all there was, tomatoes would be cherries. The minerals are what gives the fruit complexity.
"

Inorganic nutrients ("minerals") are mostly just raw materials to produce the volatiles and other taste and aroma compounds in the tomato. There are about 50 gene locations identified on the domesticated tomato just to produce terpenoids, which is a general classification for a major category of tomato flavor. Add that to the sugar profile, and the acid profile and then you get the complexity that is studies by the experts in flavors and fragrances as well as those who would like to figure out how to efficiently breed for better flavor using screening techniques rather than doing it the old fashioned selection way.

How a plant combines the sugars, acids, terpenoids, tasty cofactors and other antioxidants, etc. is purely determined by the genetics of the cultivar, whether OP or hybrid. Minerals might affect the acids of the profile, but as long as they are not limiting, that is about it and no where near as much as overwatering.

So, if you think pinching half of the flowers off the hybrid will help the flavor, then why not graft Big Beef on top of Maxifort and pince half of them off ;-) OK, I've had a bad night in the upper 20's F and high winds with additional chill, so maybe I would have posted differently as I am actually growing tomatoes right now outside. I agree with most of the rest in your last post, and I am not dissing grafting. It is an interesting technique to explore and I think you are learning a lot in doing it that will pay off with your efforts, and may change some of your ideas too and is admirable since it is extra work. Doesn't get better than learning more about something you are passionate about and having the courage to change paradigms! If you are getting better production or taste on the regular hybrid rootstock.

I'd rather ask how you accomplished that where in my little test I failed to get my goal which was that too. I am not a skeptic, Like you, I though it might work and still think so, but whether it is worth the effort with the rootstock we are using, I can't see how I can make up the delay.

One other point. Sun Gold is a hybrid that was bred for taste.

PC

The genes of heirloom tomatoes cause them to have superior taste. That is mostly because they uptake more minerals to fewer fruits.

The process of hybridization to create thicker skins, more uniform reddening, less cracking, et al at the expense of flavor is why people grow heirlooms.

Hybridized tomatoes take up, on average, fewer minerals per fruit. That is known.

Yes "inorganic nutrients ("minerals") are mostly just raw materials to produce the volatiles and other taste and aroma compounds in the tomato."

So, what exactly are you disagreeing with?

"So, what exactly are you disagreeing with? "

When someone makes ambiguous claims and uses references like "That is known", then, I get lost, and I apologise for that. Most people do a better job with ambiguity, assumption, and inference than I do.

This question contains the spirit of my disagreement:

All else being equal (foliage and fruit load, etc.), if I grafted the world's most prolific rootstock on an heirloom, will the taste of the tomatoes upstairs be improved?

PC

The taste, no. the heirloom is the heirloom. But productivity, in the specific case you describe? Yes. That's the whole point.

Yardenman,
You seem to be thinking that a plant uses its roots like straw, to simply suck up all available nutrients that it comes in contact with. Therefore, having more “straws” will bring in more nutrients, and more flavor to your tomato. That is only right to an extent.

While the absorption of nutrient ions through the epidermis of the root is passive, they cannot breach the plasma membrane at the endodermis and enter the xylem without either facilitated diffusion or active transport proteins (cations and anions, such as K+, potassium, are charged and therefore cannot cross the membrane through simple diffusion). It has been found that ion exchange in plants works against a gradient. Therefore, nutrient ions require active transport for nutrients to reach the vascular tissue to be passed on to the cells in the stems, leaves, and fruit.
If I am remembering correctly, active transport is facilitated in part by cell signaling. IE: The cells in a leaf sending a signal that they need more nitrogen which will open up the transport protein to allow more nitrogen in. If the leaf doesn’t need any more nitrogen, then the nutrient will be “blocked” until it does.

“Plants can take up nutrients in excess of their needs … However there are feedback mechanisms that reduce ion uptake as internal concentrations increase maintaining a balance between demand and acquisition.” (Adler, et al)

So, what does this all have to do with your hypothesis that more roots = more nutrients = more flavor?

Well, quite simply, plants have selective barriers to ion uptake and they do not continue to just suck and suck and suck nutrients into themselves at an unregulated rate. So, even if you have a root ball that is half a mile across, if the plant doesn't need all the nutrients that the roots come in contact with, it won’t necessarily take them and just “unload” all the extra into your fruit, making it taste better.

And of course, this is only dealing with the flavor contributions made by the nutrient ions that are taken in through the roots, and completely ignores the fact that a great deal of flavor comes from the “upstairs” (if I may borrow from PC). The fact that many OP/heirloom plants often have more foliage to fruit than do many hybrids is not an insignificant factor that must also be taken into account.

It also ignores the role of genetics, like PC said. The flavor profile is also determined not so much by the ratio of roots to fruit, but by genetics dictating how and which molecules are configured into the compounds we can taste. In regards to your dislike of the flavor of hybrid varieties, it is much more likely that the hybridization, which was done primarily with markets, shipping, and volume in mind, was done with plants that either lacked good flavor to begin with or, through the recombination of their genes, produced a flavor that was inferior to either of the parents on their own. Not as a result of the plant producing too many fruits.

This post was edited by ZachS on Thu, Jan 8, 15 at 19:28

I've probably been explaining this poorly.

1. Most heirlooms lack the extensive root systems that would permit greater nutrient uptake and therefore higher productivity. They are already genetically evolved to fine flavor.

2. Most hybrids have root systems that produce more fruits but at the cost of fewer minerals per fruit which leads to a blander taste.

3. Attaching an heirloom top to a hybrid rootstock will produce more fruits per plant with no loss in flavor (which comes from the minerals the roots uptake).

I am not going to argue about ion barriers etc. What I care about is results. And all the results I read about suggest that grafted heirloom tomatoes will produce 2-3 times the number of tasty fruits (and some minor improved disease resistence).

If my poor talents prevent me from explaining this very well, at least google "why graft tomatoes" and read some of the articles. I suggest that because some of the articles may describe the benefits in the terms you relate to more than I.

Meanwhile, I sure would like to hear from someone who thinks it is a good idea and wants to try it this year along with me so we can compare notes. Heck, even if you just buy a few, I'd like to know.

Wow, this is kind of crazy.

Graft away but I don't understand the purpose.

Best wishes.

"I sure would like to hear from someone who thinks it is a good idea and wants to try it this year along with me so we can compare notes"

My number one problem, far ahead of numbers two (hungry critters) and more, is nematodes. They've dialed in. All I need to find is one tomato rootstock that's immune to nematode knots and I would be trying grafting three weeks later without any hesitation.

It's too late for this Spring as the first flush of seedlings is five weeks old already, but the beginning of July for the second season might be good. Is there usually any attempt to match an indet root with an indet foliage, and a similar determinate matchup?

[make that: immune to root knot nematodes and to heat!]

ZackS, very well reasoned and understandable post, and an enjoyable read ... thanks! Now I have another good study to study ;-) ... which is what I love about tomatoes. It is easily the most studyable and studied plant and it seems we are living in the golden age to appreciate the knowledge of centuries finally all falling into place and fruition right now. I am awed by the opportunity to be alive during our epoch for that reason.

Hi yardenman, speaking for myself, I'm definitely not here to argue if you are not interested in the sort of tomatoey things that get me all excited to talk about, and I was trying to help, and my impression was Zack too.

Your excitement seems to be that you want to boost yield and keep the grafted heirlooms' flavor using conventional garden tomato hybrids as root stock. It sounded to me like you had already done that in '14, as had I. I got terrible results which I shared and I asked if you could kindly share your notes. I like to keep an open mind to these things, and I need to recognize that what I did was not a valid test, because I only had one grafted and one non grafted plants, both Cherokee Purple. That is not enough to draw any conclusion so if you could complement it with any tips, that would be great.

My problem was the Better Boy rootstock wasn't enough to catch the plant up and give it as thick a stem and resulted in lower yield and it turned out a weaker plant. I am not sayin this proves anything, because it doesn't. But it was a lot of work. The idea was to graft half of everything this year if I saw good results, because disease resistance and yield are equally important where I grow.

I recall Googling up an article where someone else tried the regular hybrids but it has been a while. I found it when I realized my attempts to graft were not producing the vigorous plant I wanted. It could be my my technique (I don't believe that). I can't recall which one they selected for their experiment, but it was controlled very nicely and they had I seem to recall three categories to better control the results 1) CP 2) CP/CP 3) CP/RS, for example if Cherokee Purple was the variety and RS the rootstock. If I can find that article or hopefully someone else can provide a link I think that would be helpful to us because it was filled with great notes on the topic. Practical great notes from a growing point of view if I am remember right.

I seem to remember that the results were bad except for the commercial rootstocks, and maybe it was done in North Carolina as part of a presentation somewhere, but I am straining to remember and maybe have my wires crossed since last nights have killed many of my tomato plants before they were even half harvested and I am losing a lot of sleep and in misery about it :-(.

PC

grubby_me, No tomato is "immune" to nematodes, but Big Beef is one of the resistant ones, so I use that.

I haven't thought much about indet/det matchups, but thats because I only grow indets. It is an interesting question though. And I envy you your 2 tomato seasons!

PC, I do apologize for not being able to discuss cations and ion barriers regarding plants. I do know what they are in general, but not how they engage plant roots. I don't want to discuss something I know only vaguely.

We tomato-lovers have many ways of approaching our understanding of how to grow good ones. Sometimes it is detailed scientific knowledge, some just practical experience.

I've been growing tomatoes since I was 14 (50 years). I've tried a lot on new ideas. Some worked, some didn't. But I will always give a new idea more than one chance. Sometimes they work. For example, I will probably never give up my concrete remesh wire cages.

Other ideas come and go. Like the idea of putting a cage in the center of a 10' octogon bed to dump mowed grass in to provide nutrients to the tomatoes planted around it. Worked gread, but I decided years later that the mown grass was better left on the lawn. What better nutrients for grass than grass, right?

My grafts last year did not "take". Theyn broke at the grafting points. It was my first grafting attempt, and I waited too long. The stems were larger than the clips. I'll be more careful this time.

And I'm considering buying a couple grafted tomatoes. Just to see how they are done properly, examine the graft, and see the productivity goes..

My sympathies to you about the cold-killed tomatoes. This has been an odd Winter so far.

Yardenman,

My greatest apologies for misunderstanding. Your goal of producing more fruit from a grafted heirloom/OP are well documented and one of the main reasons for doing so. There is no argument from me in that respect.

Also, I am in no way attempting to discourage you, or otherwise knock grafting, I think it as actually a very cool concept and one that is very much worth the time and effort. If I had the time and the resources, I would love to try it with you so we could compare. If you can't tell, with a background in biology, I am very much into science, and one of the best parts is when we get to put our "book smarts" into practical applications and experiment. So, once again, my most sincerest apologies if I led you to believe that I was trying to put down your grafting project, it was not at all my intention in any way shape or form!

However, where we will have to agree to disagree is that the flavor of hybrid tomatoes is a direct cause of the root:fruit ratio. But, that is neither here nor there, and is possibly a topic for another day and thread. I hope you are successful in your grafting this year and get buckets of great tasting heirlooms!

ZachS, I respect science in all ways. I have continued studying much of science all my life as an interest. But I have to admit that the details of botany escape me sometimes. I'm better at construction and physics. I watch DVDs of Cosmos and The Universe for fun just to see the errors. Science is endlessly wonderful.

In that respect, I can only try to do what I can to try new gardening ideas and test them, hoping for more heirloom fruits on more vigorous plants. If I could get just 1 more Cherokee Purple or Brandywine tomato onto my plate, I would consider it a success.

Great gardening to you...

To be honest, knowing the details and intricacies of how and why plants do what they do is only going to get you so far. I may understand the jargon of "active transport" "selective uptake" and how negative and positive feedback work in relation how living things regulate themselves, but when it comes down to real world applications, such as growing healthy and productive tomato plants, is really all that helpful? In short, no. Regardless of whether I have a grasp of these concepts or not, the tomato is going to do them anyways. All they are helpful for is 1. satisfying my curiosity (because I find them damned interesting) and 2. help me formulate a theory on what may and may not work in my own garden.

I like gardening because I like the taste of a real, ripe tomato, and I like witnessing the creation of life, from seed to seed. I love gardening because I love the science and experimentation of it. But, experiments are great only if you can live with the fact you may NOT get that ripe tomato after all your efforts.

Experience, on the other hand, gives you another tool in the toolbox, and possibly a much more important one. I can formulate all the theories based on book smarts I want, but that doesn't mean they are correct (and I may end up without tomatoes, sadly).

BUT! If we have the experience to go along with it, we can run our theories through the rigors of "the real life method," knowing what ACTUALLY works instead of just what we THINK will work. With 50 years of experience, I imagine you are far more successful in growing tomatoes than I am. Even though I can tell you why I believe your theories as to why you are successful are correct or incorrect, the fact of the matter is, you still get the results. And results, as you said, are what really counts (not that there is nothing to be learned from failure, but success is far sweeter don't you think?)

I am going to apologize, yet again, because when I read this in the morning it's not going to say at all what I am trying to get across. I probably had a few too many Coors than I should have before getting on the internet. Some of us never learn from our barracks and college days lol.

This post was edited by ZachS on Sun, Jan 11, 15 at 0:02

Just for your info and fun, this came over the airwaves tonight from the good folks at Burpee. No info anywhere about what the rootstocks are. Note that there is no commonly accepted definition of "natural".

Grafted Heirloom Tomato Plants - 3 for $26.85

Zebra, Mr Stripey, and Marglobe? Are they kidding?

Where are the real heirlooms? Like Brandywine, Cherokee Purple, Arkansas Traveler, Kelloggs Breakfast, Striped German, etc?

"Where are the real heirlooms? Like Brandywine, Cherokee Purple, Arkansas Traveler, Kelloggs Breakfast, Striped German, etc?"

Arkansas Traveler is not an heirloom, it is from 1970 despite some catalogs that have printed otherwise.

Have you grown Marglobe? Marglobe is a fantastic heirloom and the basis of some great flavor, like Rutgers. Marglobe was bred in the US around the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia as a cross between an 1899 Livingston selection, Globe, and a European variety named Marvel.

Globe in turn was developed from Ponderosa, an 1800's tomato so innovative and old time American it was better than apple pie. Ponderosa even helped establish a major Italian Heirloom Seed company!

Scroll through the other 10 varieties Burpee has grafted, and you will find Red Brandywine, "Yellow Brandywine", Cherokee Purple or if you prefer Black Krim, and although no Striped German they have Mr. Stripey. Looks like a great offering to me! That Burpee Big Rainbow grafted plant could be on my list, and their Mortgage Lifter looks sweet. I wonder if it is the "Radiator Charlie improved" version or original ;-).

Thanks for pointing them out. What I'd like to see there is which rootstock they are using.

PC

Astonished! I've read about Arkansas Traveller so much, I just assumed it was an heirloom, thought Marglobe and Mr Stripey were hybrids. My lack of knowledge is nearly limitless.

I do want to ask about Ponderosa Pink. My grampa grew them on the small farm, and my Dad after that in the back yards. Dad lost his seeds in a move, and I have always wondered about them. Dad always said it was the best tomato Grampa ever grew.

I'd like to try a few, just to see why they liked them so much. My new framed beds have some old soil but also 6" new compost and topsoil dug in. Ought to be decent growing conditions.

Have a look at this yardenman. Ponderosa is a large ribbed beefsteak reportedly bred by Henderson as a pink tomato in 1891. It was a standard with few seeds and made great slices for sandwiches: snippet from Victory Seeds scan of 1914 Burpee catalog for Ponderosa:
{{gwi:2131720}}

The reason is wasn't even more successful even though it is so great was that the ribs made it hard to deal with when everyone was going smooth. The original heirloom Henderson's Pink Ponderosa Tomato variety is on sale at Trade Winds Fruit for a buck a pack, and Burpee had picked it up

Victory Seeds scanned the 1898 description from another seed company for another heirloom called Ferris Wheel, which it sells:

{{gwi:2131721}}

Dr. LeHoullier who pours over and collects these catalogs, speculates Ferris Wheel might be a selection of Ponderosa and the descriptions look pretty convincing that they are. Victory Seeds sells Ferris Wheel.

Two great heirlooms to grow! Many of today's commercial tomatoes have some Ponderosa left in them, but only a little itsy bit.

PC

I ordered it from Trade Winds. Thank you so much for finding it.