"Real" must certainly mean "heirloom" and here's a link to a company that sells only that: http://www.heirloomacresseeds.com/

I've purchased seed from them and am pleased with the results. I grow Brandywine and Cherry tomatoes year round using static culture in growing zone 10b.

Johnny's Seed in Maine sells seed of Brandywine Sudduth which is the origional Brandywine.

I wanted the real thing and did research leading me to this source. There are other sources of Brandywine.

John

1)Brandywine = pink potatoleaf
2)Brandywine (Sudduths strain) = the original and #1 above should be that but it could have been screwed up along the way depending on where you get the seed (which is why heirloom companies started labeling their's as Sudduth's).
3)Brandywine (other strains) started out as Sudduth's, possibly altered along the way.

Red Brandywine [regular leaf] a.k.a Landis strain or Landis Valley strain= unrelated to Sudduth's, from a different part of the country, and named after something else. Red fruit, not pink.

Yellow, Black, and Purple, etc brandywines ... crosses that haved pink brandywine as a parent.

Red Brandywine potatoleaf form [naming screwup by a seed wholesaler] not related to other brandywines.

Red Brandywine regular leaf [another screwup, not the original red Landis strain]

"One of the best-tasting tomatoes.
We describe Brandywines luscious flavor as "very rich, loud, and distinctively spicy." The large fruits, often over 1 lb., have deep pink skin and smooth red flesh. Our "Quisenberry" strain is considered the best."

Johnny's Seed description does not use the word "Sudduth"
but uses "Quisenberry".

These two words are interchangable when it comes to BRANDYWINE tomatos.

Carolyn!!!!!!!!! help please.

John

Here'es some good info

I've tried to figure out the seeds I have. I bought Brandywine (Sudduth) from Victory Seed, and Brandywine Pink from Burpee Signature (rack at Lowes) thinking they were different. I've looked at the current Yearbook descriptions of them both, read Craig LeHoullier's article, saw Tatiana's database and can't figure out the difference in history or description.
1 ) It appears that Brandywine (SSE and Tatiana) and Brandywine Pink (Burpee, Victory Seed, etc.) are the same tomato.
2 ) That said, I also can't see the difference between Brandywine/Brandywine Pink, and Brandywine Sudduth in the descriptions or history. The one exception is that Brandywine Sudduth appears to be a larger tomato, up to 2 lb.
Is it that Brandywine/Brandywine Pink is the descendant of the SSE 1982 variety, and that Brandywine Sudduth is the descendant of the variety send by Craig LeHoullier to Johnny's? - both being descendants of the Sudduth strain, but the one called Sudduth having acquired a somewhat larger size?

Does anyone know who has perpetuated the Quisenberry/Sudduth line of Brandywine for Johnny's Selected Seed all this time since the early '80s? I mean who is the grower or growers who have actually accomplished that task?

Is it that Brandywine/Brandywine Pink is the descendant of the SSE 1982 variety, and that Brandywine Sudduth is the descendant of the variety send by Craig LeHoullier to Johnny's? - both being descendants of the Sudduth strain, but the one called Sudduth having acquired a somewhat larger size?

The Sudduth strain of Brandywine existed long before Craig sent seeds to Johnny's, just as I sent it Sandhill, etc.

Pink Brandywine is a redundant name b'c Brandywine is PInk. ( smile)

The slight differences have to do with origin, and I tried to indicate that in my post above in terms of saying that Brandywine, as listed anywhere, could or could not be the Sudduth/Quisenberry strain or any other so called strain.

So looking at a 1982 date is not all that helpful as I see it, at least in my opinion.

There are no decendents per se, just different ways of expressing essentially the same variety.

Has that helped at all? ( smile)

Carolyn

Nevermind. I got my answer directly from "Tom" who has worked at Johnny's Selected Seeds since fall of 1994. The Quisenberry Brandywine was new at Johnny's in '94, and listed in their 1995 catalog as the Quisenberry strain.

Since 1994, Johnny's has maintained their parent stock of Brandywine (Quisenberry) tomatoes for seed, and even when contracting out to small seed growers, Johnny's annually sells the product of those contracts and continues to maintain the pure line at Johnny's own seed farm (according to Tom, whom I have no reason to disbelieve).

So, if you want the true line of Brandywine that came from Dorris Sudduth Hill via Ben Quisenberry to Kent Ettlinger to whomever it is who subsequently passed it along ultimately ending up at Johnny's Selected Seed farm, then that's the place to obtain it ... or probably the closest replication thereof available commercially.

Now, I wonder if anyone else has CAREFULLY maintained a pure line of the Quisenberry Brandywine having obtained it BEFORE it exchanged so many hands between 1979 and 1994?

Does anyone know who has perpetuated the Quisenberry/Sudduth line of Brandywine for Johnny's Selected Seed all this time since the early '80s? I mean who is the grower or growers who have actually accomplished that task?

****

First, Craig didn't send it to Johnny's in 1982, that's when it was first listed in the SSE Yearbook. As I recall he sent it to them sometime in the mid-90's or a bit later but can check if that really matters.

Actually I just scooped my 1991 SSE YEarbook off the floor and Craig lists Brandywine and cites his source as Roger Wentling in 1987 and right below it Roger Wentling lists his source of Brandywine from Ken Ettlinger in 1985. I think Craig became an SSE member in 1988 and I did one year later.

But in general, as far as I know Johnny's themselves do all the growouts and seed production for their heirloom varieties.

I was asked to send mega amounts of seeds for Eva Purple Ball for their initial seed production on that one and before that Rob had contacted me and asked for ARGG seeds for their initial grow out and seed production for that one when they offered it.

And right now I'm sending lots of seeds for a particular variety to them as is Craig for the same variety. I was contacted and didn't have as many seeds as they wanted so suggested contacting Craig as well, and he's making up the difference.

So I have no reason to doubt the fact that for the OP heirlooms they do their own growouts and seed production as they always have, for the heirloom tomato varieties.

Carolyn

Regardless of all the other tales about Brandywine, this one remains my absolute favorite:
How Kent Ettlinger Received Brandywine from Ben Quisenberry

Now, as you read through that delightful and revealing story, there are some neat sidebars to take note of:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1: Brandywine Tomato in the above glysine envelope (see front and back) that Ben printed on a small hand press with his address and then in his own handwriting, wrote "gift" and a description of the varieties that he included. I called to thank him and ask, "How will I tell the varieties apart"? He responded, "You'll know Brandywine by the leaves, they're unusual".

*"Unusual" leaf form. I guess meaning Potato Leaf shape rather than Regular Leaf shape?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#2: The Seed Savers Exchange was already listing Brandywine Tomato (Ben Quisenberry was the original source of record) among it's members while I was still selecting the plants and fruit from Ben Quisenberry's seed for desirable characteristics.

"... while I was still selecting the plants and fruit from (Quisenberry's Brandywine seed donation) for desirable characteristics." Hmmmmmm.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#3: After three years of selection, I offered the Brandywine Tomato in the 1984 Long Island Seed Catalog.

I'm assuming the seed from the 3-year effort of selection is the seed that Roger Wentling obtained from Kent Ettlinger and which Craig LeHoullier later obtained from Wentling ... not that Ettlinger's "selection" process had resulted in any "changes" from the original Quisenberry donation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For #4, let's drop back to where Kent Ettlinger says "that Ben printed on a small hand press with his address and then in his own handwriting, wrote 'gift' and a description of the varieties that he included. I called to thank him and ask, 'How will I tell the varieties apart?' He responded, 'You'll know Brandywine by the leaves, they're unusual.'"

And ...

"The other two pink tomatoes were Big Ben and Mortgage Lifter, both normal leaved tomatoes. Big Ben is sometimes called Stump of the World." EXCLAMATION POINT!!!

Repeat: "Big Ben is sometimes called Stump of the World."

Repeat: "The other two pink tomatoes (sent in that same envelope with Brandywine) were Big Ben and Mortgage Lifter, BOTH NORMAL LEAF TOMATOES."

Uh ... so what kind of leaf form does Stump of the World express today??? POTATO LEAF!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the butt-bitter:

"I can't help but wonder though, whether Brandywine which showed some diversity in its initial planting had crossed with other tomatoes in Ben's 'Big Tomato Gardens,' perhaps even the tomatoes contained in my gift packet," says Kent Ettlinger.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gotta love a good tomato story, huh?

So let me get this straight:

"Pink Brandywine" is the same as "Brandywine", which may or may not be the same Brandywine as "Brandywine Quisenberry/Sudduth", which is the true Brandywine. Is this correct?

This year, I'm growing from seeds labeled "Brandywine", "Pink Brandywine", and "Red Brandywine". Next year, I'll probably grow all three again and mix in Quisenberry/Sudduth for comparison purposes.

You know, this is how I end up with 50 plants!

All this makes me laugh.

I was an origional poster stating the fact that the origional BRANDYWINE seed is available at Johnny's Seed.

A whole bunch of history followed confirming my statement.

Let me attempt to help.

BRANDYWINE is a pink fruit with a potato leaf.

Anything else is not BRANDYWINE.

There is only one "BRANDYWINE" it is pink and has potato leaves.

The one and only/origional BRANDYWINE is a Sudduth/Quisenberry.

Red Brandywine....is completely different.....

Hear this....there is only one BRANDYWINE.

YES, it is pink and potato leaf.

If you purchase seeds from the wrong source you many never
experience the true BRANDYWINE.

A correct source for the real/origional BRANDYWINE
is Johnny's Seed in Maine, USA

still laughing.....

John

Bill, Johnny's is not the only place that offers Brandywine ( Sudduth) that came to Craig from Roger from Ken from Ben. it goes from Craig to me, to Johnny's and from me to Sandhill and to many who got it from me thru my online seed offers. I thought Craig sent it to Mike at Victory Seeds but someone here said it wasn't IDed as the Sudduth strain and I didn't check that out.

And yes, I've read the Ettlinger article many times and it's well worth reading the whole thing/

And do read the thread at the "other place" in the Legacy Forum on Quisenberry where Ben's grandson turned up quite unexpectadly.

His memory of Stump of the World, aka Big Ben, doesn't quite fit with how those two varieties were listed from the seeds Ben left to SSE as Craig posted. But his granson was quite young at the time.

He called his grandfather Papa Berry. (smile)

Carolyn

"A correct source for the real/origional BRANDYWINE is Johnny's Seed in Maine, USA" [John]

Probably. Possibly. But ...

Reading farther along in Ken Ettlinger's article, we see him say:

"I can't help but wonder though, whether Brandywine WHICH SHOWED SOME DIVERSITY IN ITS INTITIAL PLANTING had crossed with other tomatoes in Ben's 'Big Tomato Gardens,' perhaps even the tomatoes contained in my gift packet.

"At the time, most of us accepted the then current idea, that tomatoes were inbreeders. Many aren't. In fact, the older large fruited tomatoes produce flowers where the huge multilobed stigmas stick out beyond the flower's cone of anthers. It's ready and available for pollination from others tomatoes and there are bumblebees ready to do the work.

"It's not unusual to save seeds of normal leaved tomatoes grown near potato leaf tomatoes and find potato leaved plants appearing from seed of the normal leafed kind and potato leaved kinds can pick up genetic traits from other tomatoes too and remain potato leafed.

"Tomatoes change, especially as they pass from one gardener to another, interact with different environmental conditions and are selected according to the preferences of the seed saver.

"I see the Quisenberry tomato Persimmon for sale today and many times it doesn't have the persimmon color and persimmon shape of what I saw when I grew it in 1981. Tomatoes cross. There are now Red and Yellow Brandywines and potato leaved Ruby Golds.

"The plant characteristics of my original seed is often not the same as what I grow today because I don't grow my tomatoes in isolation."

Those are Ken's words from Ken's decades of observation. Then he concludes with some speculation ...

"It's my hunch that Ben selected his three big pink tomatoes (Brandywine, Big Ben, and Mortgage Lifter) as a gene pool perhaps somewhat removed from the other plants he grew. He probably wanted his pinks to stay pink. He might have selected from the chance hybrids that showed up in his patch. Sometimes that heterosis or hybrid vigor is noteworthy. My guess is that he was selecting for size and I bet, mostly for the flavor he preferred in all three of these tomatoes. I don't know much about the origin of Brandywine before Ben but certainly Brandywine developed some of it's character in the 'Big Tomato Gardens' of Syracuse, Ohio."

Interesting conjectures. Humorous to some degree, yes :::smile:::

Bottom line, no one can certify the genetic purity of Brandywine (Quisenberry/Sudduth, whatever) grown or sold by whomever today relative to Brandywine grown by the Sudduth family a century ago ... or for that matter even a quarter century ago when it entered SSE or arrived in the mail to Ettlinger from Quisenberry.

Carolyn, I read the comments from grandson Quisenberry posted at the "Tomatoburg" discussion board where he said Mr. Ben Quisenberry's Big Ben/Stump of the World tomato was "regular leaf" rather than potato leaf. Earlier in the discussion, Craig LeHoullier also pointed that out along with references to Ken Ettlinger's commentary that we have read through here.

I think LeHoullier's words in that discussion were "so one could draw all sorts of conclusions that just reinforce that we will never really know the true story of Brandywine ... or many other heirlooms!"

How true. But then that just makes it more interesting. Everyone loves myth and mystery. No worries. Enjoy growing and eating tomatoes!

I have the Brandywine Sudduth strain. If you'd like a few seeds

Oh geez they started off all messed up and spread out of SSE. I am shocked I tell you, shocked!

I thought all the "strains" were spontaneous mutations or localized adaptions!

I prefer the Johnny's version. At least they would have taken appropriate measures to maintain a line.

"If you wish to lower yourself in a person's favor, one good way is to tell his story over again, the way you heard it." ... Mark Twain

So would the real brandywine please stand up, please stand up...

The real Brandywine is......

ED'S MILLENNIUM

John

OK, Jel, how's this:

I have two sets of seed. One is labeled Brandywine. The other is labeled Pink Brandywine. So far, they both are PL. So, can I assume that if they have pink fruit, they are Brandywine, and therefor Sudduth/Quisenberry?

A correct source for the real/origional BRANDYWINE
is Johnny's Seed in Maine, USA

****]]Not correct in my view John.

I pointed out that the same seed that Craig had he sent to me and I sent it to other places so Johnny's is not the only place with "correct" Brandywine( Sudduth). Sandhill Preservation also has seed from me which is from the seed that Craig sent me. In addition, the owners of most of the seed companies where most of the folks get their seed from have long had access to the Brandywine (Sudduth) listed in the SSE Yearbooks and that's how they get their starts of many varieties that they then list in their commercial catalogs or at their websites.

I just went back to that 1991 SSE YEarbook and neither Craig nor Roger Wentling even mentioned the words Sudduth or Quisenberry, but three others did. Although we know from what's been posted here that Ettlinger got his seeds from Ben and Roger got his seeds from Ken and Craig got his seeds from Roger and I got my seeds from Craig.

And I don't want to prolong this thread, heaven knows, but I'm also unwilling to conclude that Brandywine (Sudduth/Quisenberry) is THE original only "correct" variety.

It's been said in more than one place that Doris Sudduth Hill's family was the source of the Sudduth strain, but where did they get it from and why was it named Brandywine. There has never been any documentation to show that Brandywine is an Amish variety and that the name refers to the Brandywine River in PA where so many Amish and Mennonites lived.

And no documentation to show that Yellow Brandywine was Amish in origin, but there is information that says that Red Brandywine, which is not related in any way, shape or form to the other two, WAS Amish in origin.

We can ask questions, and those are the same questions that many have asked, but there are no definitive answers.

Carolyn

The OP asked about Goldman's comment on true Brandywine and her research. She claims Red Brandywine is the "true" Brandywine.

It is available at Sand Hill and other places.

archerb,

NO......

You must consider the source of seed to be sure you have a
Brandywine Sudduth/Quisenberry.

If you have seed from Johnny's Seed, potato leaf and pink fruit........you have the real thing.

As I said earlier, there are other correct sources of Brandywine. I am sure of Johnny's.

***********************************************

Carolyn,

I said (above) "A" correct source is Johnny's Seed.
I did not say Johnny's Seed was the only correct source.

In the 3rd post of this thread, I said "there are other sources of Brandywine".

In the same post, I mention doing research to determine the real Brandywine.

My research included communication via e-mail with your friend Craig LeHoullier

He confirmed that Johnny's Seed was the best source for Brandywine.

He said he sent seed of the origional Sudduth/Quisenberry strain to Johnny's.

I would be glad to send you a copy of this e-mail.

John

I have been growing Johnny's 'Sudduth' Brandywine for many years and have never been disappointed. PL, pink, average about a pound and ohhhhhh so delicious! I thank Craig for sending them to Johnny's and I thank Johnny's for being so consistant with them....:)

No John, I don't need to see a copy of Craig's e-mail where he said that Johnny's was the best source b'c he sent it there. ( smile). At minimum that would be a breach of confidentiality. Craig and I are in private communication all the time and we can discuss it privately if needs be.

I would like to point out an error I made above, though. I said that I had sent seed to Sandhill, but upon reflection I don't think I did. After my book came out both Glenn and Chuck Wyatt asked me to send seeds of any varieties in the book that they didn't have, but as I recall Glenn already had Brandywine listed, but right now I don't remember if it was the Sudduth or not, but he has listed the Sudduth for many years now.

I didn't keep my catalogs of Jan Blum, and she may well have listed it, I don't know. Fact is since so many owners of seed companies were/are SSE members I have no idea from whom they got their Sudduth strain thru the years or when they did.

What I do know is that Craig did send his Sudduth to Rob at Johnny's and they offered it in 1992 and at that time there were very few seed sites, if any, that were listing it as the Sudduth/Quisenberry strain, as I recall. And no, I didn't keep copies of all my back seed catalogs so I can't share with you who did what and when other than Craig sending it to Johnny's when he said he did.

I just scooped my 1996 Yearbook off the floor and saw that by then apparently there were other commercial sources but saw that someone cited JOhnny's ( 1982) as a source and saw that many got their Brandywine from Craig in the early 90's but even in the 1996 Yearbook Craig had not noted that what he was offering was the Quisenberry one. I think Craig's initial listing of it was in 1991.

Roger Wentling, from whom Craig got his seeds got it in 1985 from NY ET K. But I was interested to see that a NY ET J was also listed it in the 1991 Yearbook as seeds from Ben Quisenberry, no year specified.

Maybe NY ET K and NY ET J are the same person, I just don't know.

You posted :
"A correct source for the real/origional BRANDYWINE is Johnny's Seed in Maine, USA" [John]

My only point was that there are other sources for the Sudduth and you mentioned only one, that's all.

And Hoosier spoke to your comment about it being the real/original Brandwine as:

Hoosier posted:
Probably. Possibly. But ...

Reading farther along in Ken Ettlinger's article, we see him say:

........and went on to review what Ettlinger had said about Brandywine.

The Sudduth strain has been listed since 1981 ( initially not as a separate strain but Ided as from Quisenberry) in the SSE Yearbooks and has been continously listed as such since then. Many folks have shared seeds and relisted.

You know, every time this subject of Brandywine comes up I have never seen consensus.

As I said above there never has been consensus on origins
and strains and so much more and I personally don't think there ever will be.

Carolyn

"... while I was still selecting the plants and fruit from (Quisenberry's Brandywine seed donation) for desirable characteristics."

That to me is the most telling. It predates anything Carolyn or Craig have done.

It tells me that anything floating around from that primary source as the original "Brandywine" was probably lost in a cross. The best he could do is try to recover something similar to what he thought was the original parent. That is like saying Julian = John, Hank Jr = Hank or GWB = GHB (all apologies to Julian and Hank Jr).

Again at least Johnny's picked a good one and ran with it.

I have a packaged of Lake Valley Seed Brandywine I never opened from 1994.

It seems a little odd and even sad that perhaps the most famous tomato, among those interested beyond the most basic, has likely been mongrelized to the point of uncertainty.

If that one can't be kept straight, what hope for the others?

Makes it all the more clear to me that when a good tomato is found, seed saving at least for a personal stash, is a must do and that in order to unravel any mystery at a later date, good record keeping as to when/where seeds came from and their then used name is essential.

I was just going to choose early fruits but since I can't give them any sort of meaningful distance between varieties, I'm thinkin a stash of Blossom bags is in order.

I have 1 that may have been mismarked, crossed or a variant but its the best tasting tomato I've ever eaten and don't want to loose it.

I'm trying to recover 1 unmamed cherry from my boyhood and have 3 different sources to try. If I find it, don't want to loose it again.

"... while I was still selecting the plants and fruit from (Quisenberry's Brandywine seed donation) for desirable characteristics." [Ken Ettlinger]

Mule says: "That to me is the most telling. It predates anything Carolyn or Craig have done."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What it tells me more is that the Brandywine "Sudduth" seed Craig sent to Johnny's had been through, at a minimum, a brief selection process over 3 seasons by Ken Ettlinger after he received it from Ben Quisenberry.

Then Ken Ettlinger sent it to Roger Wentling (circa 1985) who listed it in the SSE Yearbook where someone perpetuated it and relisted it as PAWER Brandywine (PA for Penn., WE for Wentling, R for Roger) (not important really ... just pointing out that if you obtain "PAWER" Brandywine seeds, you are about as likely to get the originals as if you obtain "Sudduth" or "Quisenberry" Brandywine seeds).

Subsequently, (circa 1987) Craig got his Brandywine (Sudduth/Quisenberry) seeds from Roger Wentling.

Not withstanding Carolyn's date of 1992 for Johnny's first offer of the so-called Quisenberry Brandywine (Sudduth), a fellow named Tom who has worked at Johnny's Selected Seeds since fall of 1994, read to me yesterday from Johnny's 1995 seed catalog that the Quisenberry Brandywine was new at Johnny's in '94, and listed in their 1995 catalog as the Quisenberry strain.

Now, one year this way or that is of no consequence. And besides, I believe Tom when he tells me that Johnny's has perpetuated that tomato in their own seed plots since 1994. So, that is the place to obtain seed for a Brandywine strain that Big Daddy describes as "PL, pink, average about a pound and ohhhhhh so delicious!"

But as to whether it is comprised of the pure genetic material that first came from the Sudduth family via Dorris Sudduth Hill to Ben Quisenberry remains uncertain.

What is certain is that that same strain, along its journey to Johnny's Selected Seed, passed through Ken Ettlinger's Long Island gardens where some selection was made BECAUSE Ken says, ""I can't help but wonder though, whether Brandywine WHICH SHOWED SOME DIVERSITY IN ITS INTITIAL PLANTING had crossed with other tomatoes in Ben's 'Big Tomato Gardens,' perhaps even the tomatoes contained in my gift packet."

Also worthy of note is the fact that this tomato variety spent some time (oh, about 5 - 7 years) in Craig's garden along its path to Johnny's, right?

Oh, and just another thought ... since the seed arrived in a common packet along with 2 other varieties (both said to have been RL - Stump of the World and Mortgage Lifter) and that Ken Ettlinger also voices some question regarding stability. AND later Stump itself has "mutated" to potato leaf, as we know it now, should we consider the possibility (remote maybe, maybe not) that the Brandywine Ettlinger ended up selecting out of that packet was in fact a product (like maybe an F2 seed) of a cross between Stump and Brandywine lurking there in that historic little hand-printed packet??? Just a thought.

It predates anything Carolyn or Craig have done.

*****

All I did was to grow it from the seeds Craig sent me and I thought and still think it was the best of the various so called strains of Brandywine that were listed in the Yearbook at that time that I'd grown.

I never even listed it in the Yearbook.

And as I said above, I didn't send it to Sandhill, but I did offer it to others through the several seed offers I made at GW quite a few years ago. And I think the very first offer that I made at the "other place".

But it has been spread around a lot through commercial listings, through SSE listings, through seed trades, etc.

As I said above, there will never be agreement on this variety and all the many posts above I think have shown that quite clearly.

Yes, some of us are interested in historical details. I got taken to task on that elsewhere a bit with some persons saying that if a variety tastes good and produces well, who needs to know anything about the history/background.

Well, that's fine for lots of folks but again, some of us do like to know more about varieties in terms of history.

And there are darn few heirloom varieties about which anything is known other than maybe country of origin, person from whom the seeds were received and the year received, but not always, and then just basic info about the variety as to plant habit, leaf form, sometimes DTM's, which are not all that useful, fruit color and shape and size, and not even that basic info is given for every variety listed. When there's a more detailed history I love it. And I don't mean the variety Oos Pei, which was listed as seeds coming from an Egyptian tomb. ( smile)

And are there mixups/wrong info in SSE tomato listings? Absolutely. Which is why I'm so glad I do have so many back Yearbooks so I can sometimes trace varieties, but not always.

Carolyn, who won't be growing Brandywine (Sudduth/Quisenberry) this summer. No room. And as I said above I think the taste is unique but so are other varieties, for me. And since taste is personal and subjective, what I find to be unique for me doesn't translate out to anyone else. Each person has to grow a variety and compare it with all the varieties they've grown in the past to make meaningful conclusions for that person.

Let me go get my tranquilizer gun...For the part of my brain that is processing all this....Thanks so much everyone for all of your input and history on Brandywine! can you imagine if every "heirloom" was analyzed so passionately?

Yes! Passion. Thats the word I was looking for. (smile)

Carolyn wrote:

"Yes, some of us are interested in historical details. I got taken to task on that elsewhere a bit with some persons saying that if a variety tastes good and produces well, who needs to know anything about the history/background.

Well, that's fine for lots of folks but again, some of us do like to know more about varieties in terms of history."

****************
Carolyn, I hope you are not glancing in my direction with your statement above. I certainly don't mind hearing about the history of any variety. History was my minor in college and until this day I still enjoy reading more and more about why and how we have all come to this spot in time. People, animals, planets, plants and pretty much most things. History educates and fascinates many of us.

What I don't enjoy here is the quibbling about who's correct or who's more likely to be correct or who has more history knowledge than others. Certainly tomato history should be part of this 'Growing Tomatoes' forum IMO but not when it becomes tedious, boring and contentious. And I'm not pointing fingers at anyone who has posted on this topic because this topic has managed to stay civil.

My only reason for posting this is because I don't want you to consider me a task master. I don't think I've ever taken anyone to task regarding tomato talk. That very thought to me is laughable. There are important issues going on in our world and families right now to debate and argue about. Tomatoes is WAY down on my list...(SMILE)

I might actually change my planting plan and add two Brandywines, as I have seeds for both Sudduth and Red, just to compare.

Thank you for all of the information everyone!

Dean

What I don't enjoy here is the quibbling about who's correct or who's more likely to be correct or who has more history knowledge than others. Certainly tomato history should be part of this 'Growing Tomatoes' forum IMO but not when it becomes tedious, boring and contentious. And I'm not pointing fingers at anyone who has posted on this topic because this topic has managed to stay civil.

******

I agree. But trust me, there are few varieties that end up being discussed as often and in such detail as Brandywine is and this has been so since I started reading/posting here about 10 years ago.

******
My only reason for posting this is because I don't want you to consider me a task master. I don't think I've ever taken anyone to task regarding tomato talk. That very thought to me is laughable. There are important issues going on in our world and families right now to debate and argue about. Tomatoes is WAY down on my list...(SMILE)
*****

The most recent incident I related about folks being not all that interested in tomato histories was not at this site. And again, I do respect those who have no to little interest in tomato histories. Some do, some don't.

And yes, there are much more important issues out there right now that affect each and every one of us.

But I do think that anyone should feel free to ask any tomato questions they want to either here or at any site where they might post .

To me, discussing some tomato histories is much more welcome these days than facing what so many are facing not just in the US but world wide.

And now back to trying to put my tax stuff together. It doesn't help when one files by piles as I'm wont to do. LOL

Carolyn

To me, discussing some tomato histories is much more welcome these days than facing what so many are facing not just in the US but world wide.

I find it ironic that a line which was pretty darn importnant in starting a "heirloom" revolution in tomatoes is based on dubious histories, potentially mixed commercial backgrounds and more recently crossed seeds.

The crossed seeds issue is even more ironic since one of the jests of the heirloom movement is to retain old lines and "preserve' them.

Fostering the concepts of "strains", "regional adaptations" and "spontaneous mutations" when the source was not stable to begin with and then spreading it through preservation organizations does little to make the history or those soruces believable or relevant. Such explainations end up being nothing more than excuses for not properly isolating seed.

Again, at least Johnny's has done something and stuck with it in a proper way which preserves what it was for their inital experience.

The tomatoes may be good but apparently some histories aren't and are better left as "stories" for hard times.

Thanks Carolyn for your reply. I was hoping for such a response and hoping you didn't see me as a "task master" because nothing could be further than the truth. Tomato growing is a fun hobby for me only and I thought perhaps because of another post I made a few months ago where I stated I'm not really interested all that much in variety history, especially when it can't be fully nailed down, and in my first post under this thread where I said, hey, I just appreciate Brandywine for what it is at Johnny's that that wasn't seen by you or others in this debate/discussion as making fun or anything. This is a tough medium to communicate effectively in at times and I wanted to follow-up...

Now, ya'll can go back to this week's history lesson and I'll go see if my pepper starts need watering...:)

"Now, ya'll can go back to this week's history lesson and I'll go see if my pepper starts need watering...:)"

Hey! Pepper starts?? Any of them hairlooms? If so, what's their history?

Have you tried that new-found hairloom pepper called Colts Jolt yet? Found growing in a crack in the sidewalk outside Lucas Oil Stadium in Indy? Don't think it's really stable though ... doesn't stay as hot late in the season as it is early on.

LOL Bill. Got another Colt's Jolt yesterday wnen I learned Marvin won't be back. Tony D, Marvin, who's next? I hope this isn't the beginning of the end of a very fine run...

Start any tomatoes yet? I am about 2 weeks away here from tomato ignition.

BTW, I grow bells large (Super Heavyweight) and tiny (Yummy) and mostly I like the orange and yellows when ripe but I do like the monster red bells you get with 'The Big Early' only because they are gigantic. Some sweet fryers, jalapeno's and chili's too for fresh summer salsa...:)

Yeah, Daddy, I'm about 2 weeks away on tomatoes. I did plant 72 cells of Tiny Tim and some tumbling dwarves to sell at the Master Gardeners Plant Sale. Last year the folks were asking for "Patio" tomatoes. Maybe if I get them going now, they'll have some tiny tomatoes on them by May 1, and we can get four or five bucks for them.

Plan on starting some peppers tomorrow ... Black Pearl and a seasoning pepper I brought back from Anguilla. It's about as big around as a quarter, red when ripe, has the pungent flavor of a habanero, but no heat ... just tons of habanero flavor. Looks like a flattened Dutch bonnet or kinda like a miniature patty pan squash when green.

The funny thing about all this though,is that a well know heirloom seed company in the U.K. is selling this season a tomato seed called the original Brandywine-from which all the main brandywines were first bred from, it is described as Amish origin- and pinkish red and determinate-which means it is a bush type rather than cordon type,
So I am left wondering what they perhaps know that no one else seems to know,and if or not-to buy any seed to try them and see what all the fuss is about ???.

Okay, not trying to start a huge controversy at this point, but I think the following message, posted at another tomato discussion board, by a grandson of Ben Quisenberry, is a very revealing message in particular with regard to some of the things Ken Ettlinger had to say about his take on the stability or instability of the original three varieties sent together in that original gift pack of seeds:

"Grandpa's 'Stump of the World' was regular leaf, but he renamed it 'Big Ben' because he didn't like the name 'Stump of the World.' So, Big Ben is the former Stump of the World (which is regular leaf) and the potato leaf is still known as Stump of the World."

I also think this bit of info tells us something about the possible evolution of the original Brandywine we've been discussing and it's possible relationship with Stump of the World that we grow now.

I'll leave it at that and let the reader draw her or his own conclusions.

Bill

Bill posted:

Okay, not trying to start a huge controversy at this point, but I think the following message, posted at another tomato discussion board, by a grandson of Ben Quisenberry, is a very revealing message in particular with regard to some of the things Ken Ettlinger had to say about his take on the stability or instability of the original three varieties sent together in that original gift pack of seeds:
"Grandpa's 'Stump of the World' was regular leaf, but he renamed it 'Big Ben' because he didn't like the name 'Stump of the World.' So, Big Ben is the former Stump of the World (which is regular leaf) and the potato leaf is still known as Stump of the World."

*****
And I hope this doesn't start things going again here in this thread as well Bill. I'm glad I directed you to that thread found elsewhere, but in that same thread Craig posted the following:

******
(Just for info - both Big Ben and Stump of the World have been growing out as potato leaf right from the time that they entered the SSE collection in the late 1970s/early 1980s. So there is clearly some work to do on cleaning up the information around some of Mr. Q's varieties.)

Ben Quisenberry left his entire collection to SSE and I do think Craig's comment might well be related to that.

Ben's grandson also said that he was a young kid when his grandfather died, so I wonder how that might fit in as well.

Craig has all the SSE YEarbooks back to 1975, as I do except for the 1982, and has researched the Brandywine stuff extensively and while I didn't read all the above posts here again, I think someone, maybe me, referred to his article about Brandywines that can be found at Victory Seeds.

If, as he says, both Big Ben and Stump of the World were listed as PL when they were first listed in the SSE Yearbooks, and Craig would know b'c he has all those back Yearbooks, then what might that be saying?.

No, don't answer that, LOL, b'c we just go on and on here about this and is there ever ONE CORRECT ANSWER given all the variables? ( smile)

In my opinion, there isn't ONE correct answer based on all that I've read here and there and elsewhere over the years. But it certainly was a surprise and delight to see Ben's grandson show up, just as it was when an Estler relative showed up here at GW, which would be of interest to those who know that it's been claimed, with documantation, that an Estler was the first to develop Mortgage Lifter, not Charlie Byles of Logan, WV, aka Radiator Charlie.

Carolyn

Good points all, Carolyn. And interesting, surely.

You quote Craig as saying " ... both Big Ben and Stump of the World have been growing out as potato leaf right from the time that they entered the SSE collection in the late 1970s/early 1980s ..."

And you say, "Craig has all the SSE YEarbooks back to 1975, as I do except for the 1982 ..."

Just for clarity, could you look back through your Yearbooks and see what is said about Big Ben and Stump of the World regarding leaf form in particular?

Not that I have any reasons to doubt Craig's quote, but it never hurts to have two individual documentations.

It would be particularly informative to see what leaf forms SSE listers say Big Ben expressed 1979 thru 1984 when Ken Ettlinger began distributing the Brandywine he'd selected from those seeds sent by Mr. Quisenberry in the same gift seed packet he said contained the other two varieties, Big Ben and Mortgage Lifter ... both of which Quisenberry indicated were NOT potato leaf.

Bill

Just for clarity, could you look back through your Yearbooks and see what is said about Big Ben and Stump of the World regarding leaf form in particular?

*****

Yes, I can do that but it won't be ASAP.

The major problem is that before the 1986 Yearbook tomato varieties were not listed by color and there was no section devoted to tomatoes. Listings were by state and everything was listed together, as in listings within each state alphabetically by SSE code and it takes forever to wade through all that stuff state by state and when you don't know the name of the person listing a particular variety or the state they lived in at the time it gets even worse that than.

Been there, done that.

So I'll try to find the time and my B-day is in June and there are certain kinds of dark bittersweet chocolate that I really love as long as I have an ample supply of insulin on hand. (Wink;smile)

Carolyn

Carolyn,

Thanks for your help with the older Yearbook look-see. I understand the bother and that it might take some time. No biggie really. Just something I'm curious about.

Meanwhile, the farthest back I can check is 2006. I dont have any Yearbooks older than that.

The 2006 Yearbook lists Big Ben from three members. All three members say Big Ben is regular leaf.

One member lists Big Ben #1 and says his source is IA SSE HF, SSE Tomato #329.

Then he lists Big Ben #2 and says his source is IA SSE HF, SSE Tomato #330.

That appears to say that if, as Mr. LeHoullier said, "both Big Ben and Stump of the World have been growing out as potato leaf right from the time that they entered the SSE collection in the late 1970s/early 1980s," maybe something happened AFTER Big Ben entered the SSE system???

Who knows? I'm thinking maybe just an unintentional misspeak. And it really doesn't make that much difference at this point in time.

Somehow though, I just keep getting the feeling that Stump and Brandywine, as we know them today, are more closely related than anyone is letting on. Like maybe Stump is the original Sudduth, incorrectly identified as "Stump of the World" nowadays; and Brandywine is a selection (by Ettlinger) of an unintentional cross of Sudduth x Big Ben >> Wentling >> LeHoullier >> Johnny's >> the world.

Again, no real biggie ... we still have the original Big Ben, it appears.

And about those chocolates ... just remember what Forrest Gump's mama said. It may be applicable to this casual investigation of Brandywine. You never know what you're gonna get!

Bill