Big Daddy,

All the F1s should be identical leaf forms and look like the top picture on the mature leaves. If you get any totally smooth-edged potato leaf shapes on an F1 plant, then my cross was not complete.

The F2s should be 25% smooth-edged potato leaf like the Brandywine, and 75% regular leaf or some kind of serrated edge form. I'm seeing a little variation in the 75% saw-toothed, but most of the regular leaf seedlings look pretty much the same and all of the potato leaf seedlings look identical at this time.

I thought I had sent out about 32 of the F2 seeds to each person so that you could see that 25/75 split. I must have, since I only have 24 F2 seeds left now out of a couple hundred. Anyway, bottom line ... regardless of leaf shape, the tomatoes should be good and the plants should be nice, vigorous, healthy, dark green, productive indeterminates like the hybrids were.

Bill

Bigdaddy, save the seed from the F1's and grow out next year as F2's and you will have plenty of seed to get your PL's from. I know, you wanted them this year.:)

I want to thank everyone who's making space to grow these Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red seeds out, and hope they
make some good and interesting tomatoes for you this year and down the road.

*****

Since I just have F1 seeds that you sent me Bill it looks like I'm behind the proverbial eight ball since I'll be growing the F1 this summer and won't have F2's until next year to sow.

But I am looking forward to seeing what does come out of this cross, as you know. Not only for the F1 fruits but for various selections that folks make down the line.

Carolyn

Bill,

Yes, my two F1 plants look like your top pic. You only sent a few of those seeds.

You did send plenty of F2's but I have limited garden space. I put about 4 F2 seeds in each of 5 containers and snipped down to one. So I only got to see 5 F2 plants mature and as I said they are all Regular leaf with 2 slightly different leaf shape. I plan on growing all of these. I will certainly report how they did and my taste opinions as the season progresses but I don't have the urge to go to F3, F4 etc. I only wanted to taste the F1'S after your wonderful description last season! LOL! But observing the F2's will be interesting and I hope helpful somehow to your effort.

Now, what if I absolutely LOVE the F1? Where am I going to get more seeds for future years?!?!?! LOL

PS...I am still getting about 2 Momotaro's per week from my lone Momotaro plant growing in my diningroom. It's going strong. I'll have Momo's until the regular ones ripen in July. I'll never be without fresh homegrown again! Next winter I want to go with determinates though. I could squeeze two plants in that window that way. Thinking of New Big Dwarf...:)

Carolyn,

Thank you for taking an interest in the F1. You seemed a little enthusiastic that one of your babies (NAR) was involved in the cross, so I sent you 25 F1 seeds, if I remember correctly. I would've sent along some F2s but my supply of those was actually lower at the time than my supply of F1s ... due to me previously having sent out 32 F2 seeds to each grower so they could get a few PLs.

Right now, I have 24 F2 seeds left that I was saving for 2009. But I guess I could send half of them if you want ... and you can send me back some F2s from your F1s this fall. Or I could mail a couple of spare F2 seedlings to you or one of your growers. What say you?

Bill

Right now, I have 24 F2 seeds left that I was saving for 2009. But I guess I could send half of them if you want ... and you can send me back some F2s from your F1s this fall. Or I could mail a couple of spare F2 seedlings to you or one of your growers. What say you?

*****

A generous offer Bill but you know I ( meaning Freda my garden person) can grow very few plants these days. And with some new ones from Reinhard Kraft as well as some new ones I just received from Andrey in Belarus plus some other new ones that folks have sent I'm full up for this year.

Actually yesterday I called Peaceful Valley Farms and ordered 20 of those white Grow bags with handles to augment my pots since this summer I'll have completely changed the large raised bed here at home to perennials and roses, knowing that I can't do my own veggie gardening now.

At least I can smell the roses when they're brought in to me. ( smile)

Carolyn

[(1-0.5)Fn-1 ]/2 for PL...This calc is not correct for probability of PL at any Fn assuming parents being pp and RR at cross. So I made a mistake.

Reg

bigdaddyj Zone7 -

Sorry to hear - I provided Bill with the Neves Azorean Red seed (A guy named Don senty me the NAR) and grew out my own F1 he sent me last season
(all you need is 1 plant for F1 and 1 healthy good lookin tomato for F2 seeds ;) )

I saved seed, and planted 6 seeds.
First 2 to show true leaves were RL - the next 2 were PL - and the last 2 look like RL. So I have 4 RL's and 2 PL's (can't complain).

We're very excited here at the Bayshore for this very interesting cross.

If you can, I'd plant more seeds.

~ Tom

Here is a link that might be useful:

Yes I can get all the F2's I want from this year's F2 plants.

But if I REALLY like the F1, then I'm hurtin. I don't want to get into hybridizing...:)

Seriously, I appreciate all of you who have done the work and to make the NAR/Brandywine available to us home gardeners who just like eating fine tasting tomatoes...:)

NAR and Brandy are at the top of my taste list...

[(1-0.5)Fn-1 ]/2 for PL...
This calc is not correct for probability of PL at any Fn assuming parents being pp and RR at cross...
It should be: [1-(1-0.5)Fn-1]/2. Simply, it is 1/2 of the compliment of the "hybrid" population for one trait at a given Fn, where one of the original parents was totally dominant for an independent trait and the other totally recessive for it. So at F2 (Fn=2), the thing resolves to (1-0.5)/2 or (1/2)/2 or 1/4. (At F1 it equals 0). At F3 it is [1-(0.5)2]/2 or (6/8)/2 or 3/8 for PL (and RL), assuming no selective intervention. Rather a moot point because I assume that those trying to grow out the NAR BW cross will intervene not only for leaf form but also for other traits of interest.

Reg

Reg, you're givin' me a freakin' headache already, man. If it were as hard to manipulate the blossoms as it is to understand what the heck you're talkin' 'bout ... I'd never get the cross done. I'm not growing a rocket ... jus' a simple tomato :::smile::: Bill

Here is an updated pics of my RL NAR X

~ Tom

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1312718}}

& Here is the PL NAR X ...

~ Tom

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1312719}}

Thanks for the update. It looks much like my NAR, so I'll keep checking back for a report on blooming and then fruit.

No offense, but what's the point? Brandywine is a 10 except for folks where the heat cancels production, and Neves is so late way north we don't get the 10 that more southern locales get.

I would think you would want to cross BW with something early, productive and heat tolerant, keeping its flavor. And you would cross NAR with an earlier variety but still get a NAR.

Crossing a 10 with a 10 still equals 10 at best, not 20.

So what are you all hoping for?

tomtrees,

It may be my mistake but your F1 looks like and intermediate leaf type between a big old potato leaf and a regular leaf. Now I am not sure if this is something that would be noticable since I don't have the experience to know these things but that is one big regular leaf.

Greg

I have 2 F1 plants:

Both not as tall or bushy than my other varieties so a little on the wimpy side in comparison but in good health.

I have 5 F2 plants:

Four are doing well but one is either a runt or stunted. This plant has branches extremely close together coming from the main stem. The runt still has produced no green fruit.

So, 6 out of seven have produced green fruit so far. All 7 plants are RL. I cull early so maybe it was me accounting for all RL or maybe it was just the luck of the draw.

barkeater, I am doing this for two reasons:

1. To help out Bill.
2. I love both Brandywine and Neves. Both do great here. It's natural curiosity.

Bark: No offense, but what's the point?

re: heat tolerance & production "boost" - plus "why not" ???

Greg: It may be my mistake but your F1 looks like and intermediate leaf type between a big old potato leaf and a regular leaf.

re: The pictures above are the F2's (1 RL & 1 PL).
An intermediate leaf form is more than possible.
I have seen an intermediate leaf form on an X'ed Lillians Yellow - I will report more as the plant progresses.

Both plants are short and stocky ... nothing like the F1 or NAR or a Brandywine... Interesting for sure. Below is a super early pic of the F1 from 2007. Will look for a more "mature" later in the season pic.

~ Tom

Here is a link that might be useful:

"No offense, but what's the point? Brandywine is a 10 except for folks where the heat cancels production, and Neves is so late way north we don't get the 10 that more southern locales get." [Barkeater]

Bark, your opinion on Brandywine is legendary as is your continual complaint about not being able to accomplish harvest in your short growing season. Apparently Neves gives you similar problems with its late maturity.

"I would think you would want to cross BW with something early, productive and heat tolerant, keeping its flavor. And you would cross NAR with an earlier variety but still get a NAR." [Barkeater]

I don't have a problem with long season tomatoes ... got plenty of growing season to wait it out. Heat tolerance? Yeah, that would be a plus, but I never had a problem with heat or productivity and Brandywine. Neves on the other hand didn't like our midsummer temps. And Neves wasn't particularly productive even when the temps cooled off. Sure did taste good though.

"Crossing a 10 with a 10 still equals 10 at best, not 20." [Barkeater]

Yeah, I realize that ... especially if the scale only goes 1 thru 10 to begin with.

But fact is, I never thought of Brandywine as a 10 to begin with. And when I did the cross, I had never tasted Neves.

What I was impressed with at the time I physically made the cross was Neves stocky and upright plant structure. And to be honest, I think Neves structural character is showing thru in the cross especially in some of the F2s. Check out Tom's pics.

Also, the "intermediate" leaf forms we're getting are awesome. I'm lovin' it. Thank goodness Big Daddy, Tom and several others are together in this grow-out as I could never find space enough to take a good look at all these plants and find the heftiest structure and hopefully the tastiest fruit.

So what am I hoping for? Uh ... I dunno. Maybe a few lines of good tomatoes here-to-for unknown to tomatoheads!

Bill

We've still not been able to get really good production (or disease tolerance) out of a Brandywine ... Also for us, we're looking forward to the x's "combined" effort for heat/disease tolerance, & flavor.

NAR has consistently grown great for us.

~ Tom

Somewhere up in tomato heaven Tony Neves is looking down and I think very happy to see that so many folks like his variety which is Neves Azorean Red.

My one plant of the F1 is doing fine and I too am excited to see what the F1 gives me to see what I can see in it of both Brandywine and NAR.

Carolyn

July 1 Report

Here is a pic of one of my 5 F2 plants and two fruit from the same plant:

This particular F2 plant set three fruit very early. The ripe fruit was very good! The other fruit I picked early because I am getting some bird pecking. The third fruit was a badly mis-shapen huge fused job that I tossed.

The two fruit pictured weighed in at 11 and 12 ounces.

I have 5 F2 and 2 F1 plants. All regular leaf. It will be awhile before any of the F1's ripen so no report on them.

Two of my F2's are fairly good sized compared to my other varieties and two others are on the small side. Both F1's are normal size for this date.

Oh, and those are onions growing in front of the tomatoes.

Really interesting stuff. I have been following this thread closely. I finally got two takes on a cross and cant wait until I get to grow out the f1 and f2's. Good luck and keep us posted.

Big Daddy ...

That tomato on the right looks PINK! Peel some skin off one of those and scrape all the meat off the back and hold it up to the light. If it's clear ... SAVE THOSE SEEDS!

Bill

Why do you want pink.

What color is the Neves and the Brandywine. I guess Neves is Red and Brandywine is Pink.

Pink is just a color. I can guess it is independent of all other characteristics.

Bill, I can't! It was eaten a couple days ago! LOL

I will on the next one. Maybe Sunday. You know, the one in the above pic that is just past blush stage and now turning red.

The one I ate did look red to me but I am a little color blind. I will perform your skin test and post the pic in a few days.

Meanwhile, let me correct an earlier message. In an early message I said the 2 F1 plants were wimpy/smaller. That was a mistake, I was looking at 2 of my 5 F2's. (Boy I'm glad I use paint penned markers cause I forget stuff) The F1's have always been good growers. It's 2 of the 5 F2's that are wimps. For some reason the above pictured F2 produced a very early cluster giving me a ripe fruit by July 1 which is very early here. All other of the F1's and 2's are nowhere near a ripe one.

Besides the SunGold's which are usually first here.... the lone F2, Big Beef and Momotaro have also produced ripe fruit this year.

I am still waiting on:

Brandywine
NAR
KBX
Orange Heirloom
Marianna's Peace
Chapman
Porterhouse
Big Zac
BrandyBoy

big daddy

Now I always save seeds from my early toms. One reason is that the seed is more likely to be pure and I always like an early tomato. I still eat the tomato. I just save seeds from it.

Right now I am anxious to get those first ripes for seeds for next year. I have been carefully monitoring the flowers from the various plants to get pure seeds.

dangould

Yes that is a good way to save seed. Better than willy nilly later in the season.

I'm not a big seed saver. I'm too lazy to bag blossoms to assure purity. This year, like many others, I had first early flowers on many varieties at the same time. I'd rather just buy new and trust the few seed companies I deem reliable. I did save seed from Kotlas one year because it is a rare variety these days. I started the plant months ahead of my others and was 100% sure the first fruits HAD to contain true Kotlas seed.

Someone in N.J. was kind enough to send me some of his F2 seeds recently, and my 2 RL plants are about 1 ft. tall as of today:

{{gwi:1312734}}

While mine will be later than those who have had their plants in for a while, I hope to be enjoying them well into the Fall.

Raybo

Here is a pic of snips from all 5 plants. One snip per F2 plant. The first two on top are from what I previously described as my two wimpy F2 plants. These two plants are about 60% the size of my other 3 F2 plants and wispy. I hope these pics help somehow Bill. I'm putting your eyes in my garden...:)

Also, I got my first BrandyBoy today and it was delicious. Tomato Time is here big time in Delaware...:)

Bill, I did the skin test last night. Four sets of eyeballs all report the skin was yellowy. I have another ripe one that they all say is a definite red as well. I compared to a ripe Sudduth Brandywine.

I wish I could have gotten at least ONE PL plant out of 7 plants! LOL

The two F1 plants are both strong growers still but low on production. Only a few tiny greens on each of them and it's mid July here where other varieties are nearing peak production.

Big Daddy,

First of all, look back at the third posted message on this thread ... April 8. You'll see the leaf form for the Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red (F1) plant has about the same characteristics as the leaf you show at the bottom left in your picture posted just above on July 5.

You say those leaves are from five different F2 plants. The leaf on the bottom left is the closest to the F1 leaf shape. Please save seeds from that plant for sure.

The leaf on the bottom right displays a very interesting leaf shape, in my opinion. I really like all the little leaflets along the central leaf stem. Please save some seeds from that plant too.

I saw you said, either somewhere in this thread or in your other thread, that you're having poor production results from the F1. Can you give me a run-down of your weather conditions up to this time? The F1 produced pretty well for me in 2007 ... not the top producer, but better than the NAR parent and almost as good as the Brandywine parent. That is, it set maybe 20 - 25 tomatoes, maybe 2 or 3 per cluster, up until the heat spell in August when we started hitting 96 - 105*F daily.

The F1 vine stayed healthy through the 2007 heat and drought, and set some more late tomatoes after the heatwave subsided, but that was on into September, and most of the later tomatoes did not fully ripen before I tore the vine out while cleaning up the garden.

I don't have a F1 vine growing this summer, so I can't compare to the several F2s I have going. (A spring storm blew a flat of late starts off a plant stand and I couldn't be sure of which were F1s and which were F2s in that flat. Luckily, I had already potted up six F2s ... four regular leaf and two potato leaf.)

That brings us to another point ... sorry you didn't get any potato leaf starts in the F2. I thought I had sent enough seeds that you would've gotten at least 4 if they went the standard 75% RL / 25% PL. Anyway, I do have one potato leaf F2 that is really producing well and has a good crop of small green tomatoes hangin'. Yeah, I guess this variety is gonna be a "late season" tomato. But boy it is healthy, and many of my plants this year have spots and blotches that I almost never see in a normal year (We've had a very wet and unusually cool start to our summer.)

I haven't sprayed yet, and I've lost several different plants ... pulled due to various diseases ... so anything surviving looks fairly tolerant to me at this point (there are still fungi poppin' up along with stuff I haven't positively identified yet), and the BWxNAR (both RL and PL) seem to be surviving stuff that even "disease-resistant" hybrids have gone down to. More on that later.

I noticed in your other thread that you're hoping for other potato leaf types of "hybrid heirlooms," and I think I'll have a couple for you to take a look at next year. One in particular is gonna be a potato leaf in the F1 with "green-when-ripe" genes crossed with yellow pear-shaped genes ... and I'm hoping that one will eventually make something along the lines of Green Grape only PL. Interested?

Again, Big Daddy, thanks for taking an interest in these projects ... and I really hope some of the strains turn out productive and suited to your garden and tastes.

Bill

Big Daddy,

Here's two photographs of the F1 Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red taken on June 24, 2007 about 60 - 65 days after transplant,
and showing the bottom few tomatoes on that vine.

So, you can see those probably ripened up about the 2nd or maybe 3rd week in July ... and the vine kept setting fruit until about
the 5th of August when the daytime temps went above 95*F and stayed there for the rest of the month of August.

All of the F2 seeds I sent you and others came from this vine.

Bill

Hi Bill, OK, I will save seeds from both F2 plants you requested.

My two F1's are strong growers. They just haven't ripened any fruit yet and most of my other varieties have done so. But the plants have a nice amount of green toms on them so there's is still alot of history to be written...:)

I am getting a few more ripe F2's. They are good tasting but I can't say they beat Sudduth Brandy or Neves. But still very nice. Now I must go outside and mark the two plants you mention with the interesting leaf patterns so I know which two plants they are. I KNOW they aren't the two wimps, but that leaves three plants I must match to two photos. I will call one A and the other B. And I will save seeds from both and compare the tastes.

I am having disease issues as well. Mostly on my RL varieties. I now fully believe that PL varieties have a little extra natural ability to resist leaf diseases. I have become a big fan of PL! Remember, I don't spray Daconil or anything, so this is an important consideration. But our weather has been dismal up until now. It looks like we finally broke out of that cloudy/humid pattern and we might get a solid week of nice weather.

Sorry for rambling on. We leave today for Atlantic City for a week but I will drive home in a couple days for a day and then drive back to rejoin the family. So only 1 day of online access in the next week. Talk to you later...

First of all, I hope you enjoy your week at the beach! A week in Austin was a welcomed relief for Brenda and me. But glad to be back home now ... except for the monumental task of yard work after yet another rainy week in the Midwest.

Yeah, the F1 definitely was not equal to NAR in taste. I can't positively compare it to Sudduth, because I don't know for sure whether I've grown Sudduth. The Brandywine parent I used was known to me only as a pink, potato-leaf Brandywine that exhibited great production and good flavor. But I did think the F1 had a distinct bite and good flavor profile compared to many other tomatoes in the 2007 garden.

I don't use Daconil on tomatoes either, Big Daddy. I do use Daconil on roses and other ornamentals ... but those are over in Brenda's gardens and that's a whole 'nuther story.

Yes, I am suffering from a plethora of foliage disorders this year that I have never seen in my beds before. Some years it's disease. Some years it's pests. Some years I guess it will be both. I've pulled several plants already this year and looks like more will be pulled this weekend. All part of the process of eliminating the weak and discovering the hardy. The F2 Brandywine x NAR so far have resisted disorders that others have succumbed to ... but in my definition "resistance" requires surviving until producing ripe fruit with viable seeds. So, time will tell.

Bill

Me again, LOL

I marked both plants. Plant A is the shorter F2 branch on the bottom. Plant B is the longer branch on the bottom:

It was easy to find which is which. I will save seeds from each but both are about two weeks away from a ripe fruit. Actually the F2 wimp plants produced much earlier. Probably because they were stressed.

So all green lights here.

Because of hurricane Bertha in the Atlantic they say the waves are huge! I gotta keep an eye on my son. He's a daredevil kid but he's certainly not a seasoned ocean swimmer! I am glad your Texas vacation was relaxing. I need a little of that...:)

Bill, all 5 F2's have now been tasted and they range in taste from 6 to 8.5. Nothing extraordinary.

The race is on between my 2 F1 plants and KBX. These are the only two varieties that have yet to ripen here. KB has always been very late for me and KBX no different. I will report back on the F1 taste. I must say both F1 plants are tall but not quite as bushy as many of my other varieties.

The fruit on them looks good and I'm guessing two or three more days for my first F1 taste.

Hope your season is progressing well.

Big Daddy,

Guess what ... I got the pink tomato (clear epidermis) I was hoping for out of one of the F2s. It came off one of the regular leaf plants.

The tomato was about 14 ounces, nice, smooth, flattened globe with some hints of scalloping and no blemishes other than a rather pronounced "innie" belly button on the blossom end.

The fruit pulled off the vine easily unlike its Brandywine mommy, and the sliced tomato showed all the seed cells pinwheeled around the outside perimeter of the dense, meaty interior just like its Neves Azorean Red daddy.

I'd rate the flavor as an 8 out of 10 with a distinct aftertaste not quite as powerful as the aftertaste of NAR.

Bill

Hey that's good stuff Bill! Now, can you keep going until you get the pink one with PL too? LOL

I am serious, I really am starting to favor PL plants. They are fighting off diseases much better than my RL's.

If you want me to grow out a couple of these pink F2's you discovered next season I'd be glad to. Meanwhile, awaiting my first taste of the F1 cross in a couple days. One started blushing about two days ago. Ahhh, my two faves, Brandywine and NAR, hoping for a perfect union....:)

Bill,
I'd rate the flavor as an 8 out of 10 with a distinct aftertaste not quite as powerful as the aftertaste of NAR.

**********

I enjoy reading your cross reports.

Please rate flavor of both Brandywine and NAR on a 1 to 10 scale.

Does the powerful aftertaste of NAR increase it's rating?

John

I'm not Bill but I've grown Brandywine many years and Neves since Carolyn made them available. They are my two best tasting tomatoes. I give Brandywine (Sudduth, seeds from Johnny's) a ten. I describe it as a creamy tomato juiciness not found in any other variety. I rate NAR a 9.5. It's hard to describe. It just tastes great to me. I'd never kick either out of a BLT...:)

Big Daddy,

Thanks for your response.

Nice to know I am on the right track as I have both Brandywine and NAR growing my first year with heirlooms.

John

"Please rate flavor of both Brandywine and NAR on a 1 to 10 scale." [John]

John, the Brandywine I used as the seed parent may not have been Sudduth. I have no idea really. It came from a contract seed vendor called Livingston Seed Company (Columbus, Ohio) who leaves displays of garden seeds in hardware and big box stores all around the Midwest.

The Brandywine parent was potato leaf, pink, large, mostly smooth without a lot of lumpy green shoulders, but somewhat irregular on some fruit like maybe a gnarly side or two on some. It had what I would rank as a 7.0 out of 10 flavor ... or about the same as the Earl's Faux I grew right next to it. In fact, I could hardly tell the difference between the two vines or their fruit except the Earl's Faux had bigger belly buttons and the Brandywine was harder to pick off the calyx.

The Neves Azorean Red came from a grower in New Jersey and I don't recall where he got his original seeds. The plant was erect, compact, grew about 6 feet tall, was stingy with fruit, didn't like to set in the heat, and had large, red, heavy, dense, really meaty fruit with an unusual flavor ... some sort of twangy aftertaste that I cannot describe. Very tomatoey though. I would rank it about an 8.5 out of 10.

"Does the powerful aftertaste of NAR increase it's rating?" [John]

Yes ... mainly because it was curious but not offensive and not altogether "tomato." So, it stood out; and since it tasted good, it bumped the rating up.

For me, a 10 would be something in the Cherokee Purple family or something like Indian Stripe. Cherokee Green was a 9 for a green-when-ripe, I guess. But then I haven't eaten many green-when-ripes and nothing better than Cherokee Green so far.

So far this year I have not had a 10 of any color or shape ... even cherries. The Indian Stripes are starting to come in farther up the vine and getting more and more flavorful. So maybe soon.

As far as green-when-ripe, I've eaten one tomato off a dwarf plant derived from Green Giant x Golden Dwarf Champion that I would rank as a 8.5 with great possibilities. So, I'm looking forward to eating my first Green Giant soon, too. (Golden Dwarf Champion was totally unimpressive, IMO.)

I had one tomato last year that was off the scale of 1 - 10. So, I don't even compare other tomatoes to that particular degree of great flavor. That special tomato last year was more like a 15, and I have no idea if it will ever repeat as it was an F2 from Sudduth x Unknown RL.

Believe me, I am not easily impressed with tomato flavor. It has to be rich, sweet and tangy ... meaty, not overly soft or mushy ... not watery but definitely juicy. And no need for salt whatever. That's cheatin'. Gotta be awesome right off the vine in the morning and cool only from the night air.

Bill

Bill,

Your taste criteria are interesting.

Hope you get a 10-plus in the near future.

After they ripen, please post taste results of your Indian Stripe.

John

I'm still in a holding pattern on my B x NAR PL and RL F3's. My PL is loaded with some nice size fruits waiting to change color. My RL has one tomato on it and I don't expext to much from it unless it's a late starter.
On the 15 Bill had last year I to grew it out but grew an RL plant that had good production but the taste was so so. This year I grew out the F1's again and this time grew a PL as Bill's 15 was last year and my plant is loaded with big lunkers and I'm waiting for them to change color. I already told myself no fried green tomatoes from this plant! Ami

OK, here we go...
KBX ripened before my F1's making the two F1 plants last to ripen in my garden. August 2 is seriously late here. But I have finally tasted an F1 and it's very good. It tasted more NAR than Brandywine IMO. They are also shaped more NAR than Brandywine as well (No gravy boats). Perhaps since both plants are RL? In any case, the F1's are a nice tasting variety but better than Brandywine or NAR? No. I prefer the uniqueness of Brandywine and NAR.

Both F1 plants are tall but not as bushy as many other varieties. Both are only average producers. Both got hit with early blight but not as badly as a few other of my RL varieties so pretty good in the resistance category.

Two of my 5 F2's are total wimps. They are straggly, tiny, stretchy plants only 3 to 4 feet tall. I am surprised they each have produced 5 or 6 ripe tomatoes with more still on the plants. The other 3 F2's are tall plants but not as bushy as some of my other varieties. NONE of the 5 F2's are great producers. My Sudduth Brandywine's and BrandyBoy's are killing them in production and the F2 fruit on average is smaller than BB and BW. Taste ranges from maybe 6 to 8. (I give BW and NAR 10's) I will collect seed from the 'A' and 'B' plants as you requested based on my pic above of the leaf structure.

Now, how are the parents doing in my garden? Brandywine Sudduth is magnificent! Holding up very well against the early blight that has set a foothold into my tomato patches this year. GReat big plants, big toms and BIG taste! As usual here.

NAR, two plants. One pulled already due to early blight. It was the first plant down in my garden. The other barely hanging in there but I think I can get a few more ripe fruit from it in the next few days before I pull that one to. Two out of the 4 years I've grown NAR have been fantastic! This year and the other are almost total wipeouts.

As I've mentioned before, I now really believe that PL varieties are less troubled by early blight than RL. Someday I hope a PL NAR shows up and becomes stable like KB/KBX has. My PL KBX plants are buttkicking out there. Man, what strong growing plants just loaded with fruit!
Enjoy the Colts game today...:)

F2-RL Pink sliced. Mildly tomatoey, meaty, juicy, smooth!

Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red (F2, potato leaf, red) 12, 15, and 18 ounce examples.

F2-PL Red is much more tomatoey, with a nice acid bite. Mmmmmmmm, boy!

Bill, in the 10 days since I last posted I'd like to share this:

My F2's look like your F2 Reds but smaller. Although I do see a couple still on the vine that may be close to a pound, most have been in the 6 to 10 oz range. Caution: ALL my varieties are smaller on average than in normal years. Including Big Zac and Porterhouse which normally yield 2 plus pounders but this year only 1 plus pounders. Lots of Early Blight early in this year's season that is very unusual. Plants smaller than normal. (Except the monster plant Chapman)This probably explains it.

I am liking the taste of the F2's more and more. But still not as much as I like Brandywine or NAR on their own.

The yield on the F1's and F2's are improving. I lost one NAR and one Orange Heirloom plant so far to Early Blight but all my F1 and F2's are still setting fruit, even the two F1 runts.

Maybe I'll send some more pics along and I will save seed from the two plants you requested.

I am enjoying the Olympics. Michael Phelps is a superman!

"The yield on the F1's and F2's are improving. I lost one NAR and one Orange Heirloom plant so far to Early Blight but all my F1 and F2's are still setting fruit, even the two F1 runts"

That should read even the two F2 runts. Both F1 plants are about normal size.

Bill, and everyone, here is my final report:

Bill, I have fermented seeds now drying to send to you. I'll send in a couple days. Two packs of seeds. F2 A and F2 B. These are the two plants you said to save you seed from based on their leaves. I'll mark them as F2 A and F2 B and send another picture along so you'll have an easy reference.

The 2 F1 plants grew tallest. Both RL

The 5 F2 plants were also all RL

All of these plants showed better than average disease resistance when compared to my other RL varieties and all are still producing but are running low on green leaves. My NAR and Brandywine plants are all RIP. So these F1'a and F2's did better in the disease department. It was a very bad year for disease here. Early Blight hit earlier than usual. WAY earlier!

There was a nice stretch there where all the fruit tasted very good. I prefer the taste of Brandywine and NAR a little better though than the crosses.

My favorite F2 was the 'A' plant. You'll be getting seeds from it. It wasn't the tallest or bushiest but produced the most and biggest fruit. Good looking fruit too. More NAR than Brandywine IMO. I plan on growing a couple of these F2 'A' plants next year. Is it possible I could still get a PL plant from this F2 RL seed? Hope so...:)

What's wrong with the Colts defense? Major disappointment. That wasn't a good way to break in a new stadium...:(