I tried Winter Sowing my tomatoes last year. My plants were far behind those in the local nurseries so I went and bought some and only planted one of my winter sown plants. That plant didn't produce until very late (August, I think). So I gave up on winter sowing tomatoes although it has worked great for other plants.

I have WS tomatoes sprouting outside, and the same varieties sprouting inside. I am also doing a comparison. My inside sprouts are taller, and a few have true leaves. Unlike yours they are still inside, by a sunny window in newspaper pots. The window is often open.
Your zone 7 might be a bit warmer than my zone 7. It is 44 here tonight. I have left my WS seedling in their containers for now.

I will try and take pictures soon.

athenainwi, thanx for your feedback. Maybe I will have better success because I have a longer growing season. We will see...:)

anewgarden, cool, it will be fun to compare notes...:)

I want to add that in the pic above the larger regularly started plant was buried deeply when I planted it. It had perhaps 4 sets of true leaves vs. one tiny set on the smaller WS. So, on April 25, it was way ahead of the WS'ed one. But now, let's see what happens from here...:)

I am now hardening off the inside seedling. They are taken in and taken out. Both the inside and WS seedlings are very small. Very small!
The WS so far are sure easier.

My other experiment, sort of experiment, is going better. I have a bunch of larger inside volunteers, which I didn't realize I had for weeks, I think they are from last years Cherrys, that I have planted out into containers, all but one, which I put in the ground.
I couldn't tell much difference from your pictures, so far which looks better to you, your WS seedlings, or your inside ones?

anewgarden, I agree with you. The WS method is WAYYYYYYY easier! But is it better? That's why I'm doing this comparison. I mean, sow the seeds in February, pop them in the ground when they sprout in April, cover with a water bottle and DONE!. Compared to sowing indoors which means getting good lighting, watering, fussing, the old in an out hardening off process, etc.

The WS'd plants are stockier, greener and hardier looking than my indoor ones. But my indoor ones look like this every year anyway. But my indoors ones are much bigger and at this point a good deal ahead of the WS'ed ones. But the race is on and it ain't over til the fat tomato sings in my BLT! I'll post a pic every 10 to 14 days and update this topic. Thanx for your feedback and good luck this season!

My winter sowed tomato are up to 6 inchs now and out side,just did my transplanting of them so they get a week before they hit the ground next week.

It is sort of like comparing apples with oranges. Unless you can plant the same varieties etc. I winter sow cause love the idea of starting 30 types and they dont need to be harden off. Does not cost me a fortune, no damping off problems. It is just way easier and I can push my season by planting them out way earlier cause they are so cold hardy.

For me it is so easy rather go that route and give away or sell my extra seedlings to others. Honest after owning a green house and doing winter sowed ones rather do the winter sowing. Also works with my organic side too.

ML

I did a trial last year. Had planned to expand it this year but for various reasons didn't make it. I direct sown in the garden where they would end up. And covered with buckets with plastic. This year I did manage to get a couple in covered by WOW's. Will compare them. My direct sown did better last year in a terrible year here. It is something I plan on experimenting with for a few year. Because it is less trouble. No potting up ect. Jay

Jay, my thoughts too. Less hassle for sure. Thanx for sharing your experience.

ML, I am trying WSing for the reasons you list why you prefer the method. I hope to have positive results. I am comparing the same type tomato from the same saved seed bunch. So apples and apples. I'm looking for which method sets first ripe fruit, total production and if I can see any obvious disease resistance between groups. I already figured out WSing is far easier...:)

Picture taking not going so well Photo Bucket driving me nuts!
But I can report that it is so far a mixed bag:

Tumbling Toms DET Doing much better WSed

Silver Fir Tree IND Doing much better as Inside-Next-To-Sunny-Window

(bigdaddyj you are so right,it's not over until we eat the things, you in your BLT and me standing next to the plant with a salt shaker hoping no one sees me)

An attempt at photo sharing:

anewgarden, you got Photobucket to cooperate. :)

I use Flicker for my pics and Flicker works great. Nice N Easy the way I like my computer stuff to be...:)

Looks like to me it's soon time to seperate your babies and give them their own space mom!

I will try Flicker! With photo bucket I have trouble getting the pics big enough, if I enlarge they blur beyond see-a-bility.

Do you think I should give each seedling it's own 5 gallon container so soon, or go up just a stage? Maybe each seedling its own newspaper pot?

ang

Do you think I should give each seedling it's own 5 gallon container so soon, or go up just a stage? Maybe each seedling its own newspaper pot?

****

To me your plants look quite small right now.

You're in Brooklyn zone 7 and should be able to plant outside in the next week or two and you want seedlings to transplant that are maybe 6-9 inches so if it were me I'd leave them in their current containers and then transplant out from them.

If I'm wrong on the current plant size please correct me.

Carolyn

I think you are right, they are very small, I should wait. And you are saying just go right from what they are in to the final destinations, right? Thanks Carolyn!
Here is a bigger picture(flicker is better than photo bucket)

I think you should grow them in their present containers until they're 6-9 inches tall, which is quite possible in their current contaners, and then plant out at the right time after hardening off.

Yes, they are very very small right now as your pictures show.

Don't worry about rootbound plants or anything like that. I routinely do an intial transplant from the seed pan to plastic cells that are about 2 " x 2" and grow them on in those cells to transplant size, and if they become rootbound I consider that a plus, actually.

Carolyn

anewgarden, your seedlings were WS'd, right? If so, they are already hardened off and you could transplant them out as soon as all this rain stops. I put mine in the garden soon after germination with only their seed leaves and covered with a water bottle for about 10 days because it was early April but now you really don't need the bottle plus you container grow so you aren't bothered by ground by rabbits and such.

Or you can wait like Carolyn says especially if they aren't hardened off.

JFYI, On Flicker you have a choice of what pic size will display and I usually choose the second largest, like in the photo I posted at the top of this page.

Soon as it stops raining, I will indeed plant out my Winter Sown seedlings. Might be a few days.
I've dragged all the inside seedlings back inside! It is chilly, hovering around seedling killing temps. and so so wet! Might have to build an Ark.So once again, I'm noticing how much easier WSing is.

2nd largest on Flicker got it!
Thanks both of you!
Here is a picture of things I've already planted out that were Winter Sown:

newgarden, I'd like to see your above pic 2 months from now to see how it all matures. Next year I might WS some flowers. I only tried WSing tomatoes this year...:)

Looks like a solid week of rain here too...:(

OK, here's a pic taken today, May 17, 2009, 3 weeks after first transplanted outdoors and 3 weeks after the first pic I posted in the very first message. The WS plant is about half the size of the traditionally started plant. Both plants look very healthy. I'll post the next pic in 2 or 3 weeks...

I'm curious if direct ws'ers mound up to make up for the extra rootage that we indoor sowers get by potting up and planting deep.

rj, I can only say that I mounded up an inch or so when I first transplanted my tiny WS plant from it's slitted container directly into the ground.

It's now 6 weeks since I planted the KBX indoor started plant out in the garden next to the WS plant. The indoor started plant still looks like it's about twice the size of the WS one but I think the WS one is slowly catching up. The indoor started has one yellow blossom now and a few other green buds and the WS still only a few green buds. Next pic in three weeks.

how do you know that the WS seedling chosen doesnt happen to be a runt seedling no matter how it's grown?

mulio, I don't. Not at this juncture. When all is said and done and the plants are about the same size in September sometime THEN I'll know it wasn't a runt. I have started plants late before that eventually by September catch up to my older seedlings in my long season. My plants grow up over the 6' Texas Cages and then back down again. It is rare I grow a runt but it has happened. I had a Big Beef runt once. And I've had a few pepper plant runts so I know what you're talking about. Gots a long ways to goes!

I also have another normal indoor started KBX and another WS KBX plant both of which I haven't pictured but which I can observe. So 4 plants in my trial. If both my WS and my two normal started grow up and over the cages I'll know they weren't runts. So far those two are behaving just like these two pictured where the Normal guy is about double the size of the WS.

For those of you who are concerned about how your WS tomatoes will grow, let me assure you that in 6 years of WS tomatoes, you have nothing to worry about.

I'm in zone 5 MA, colder than many of you and would never, ever buy a store bought seedling again.

One thing I do differently though, is to start my tomato seeds in individual styrofoam cups. I fill stick my finger through the bottom to make a drainage hole and fill the cup about 1/2 full with miracle grow potting mix. the plain kind not the one with the moisture control. Then in goes 1 tomato seedling in the center of the cup, sprinkle a bit of soil on the top, cover it with a store brand ziplock type sandwich size baggie. Put in the air holes with slits and out they go. Of course the soil is quite wet and they go out about April 16th.

I do wait until there a couple of sets of true leaves before transplanting them to huge pots to grow.

Once the seedlings have at least 1 set of true leaves, I take the seedling out of the cup, put in a bit more fresh miracle grow soil, put the seedling back in and add more of the soil to the top, covering some of the stem to get more root growth.

I grow all my toms in huge pots that hold about 1 1/4 cubic feet of potting soil. Put the seedling in the middle of the pot and always plant a dwarf marigold on the edge of each pot to help keep the bugs away. I use plastic tomato stakes to stake the toms to, right from day of transplant, leave many of the suckers and cover the top of the soil with a thin layer of bark mulch.

I grow the following tomatoes every year and all in pots

sweet 100
celebrity
cherokee purple
white wonder
purple cherry
warren's' yellow cherry
black cherry
xmas grape
large cherry red

Not many pics from last year, not able to take them do to surgery, but these pics are from 2007. I expect the same results, that is it we ever get some warm weather this year.

Toms get planted when they are about this size or larger
xmas grape
{{gwi:411248}}

June 3, just planted out
{{gwi:356441}}

July 4th
{{gwi:356442}}

August 2, already having plenty ripe to eat
{{gwi:356443}}

August 16th
{{gwi:356444}}
Tomatoes go out in the pots when they are this size or bigger.

Labor day weekend
{{gwi:434391}}

Oct 31st. still going strong with a warm late fall. still producing fruit and ripening as well
{{gwi:436627}}

One of the nice things you will find about growing WS tomato plants is that they will continue to produce fruit and ripen, long after the store bought plants have gone by and those that have them have pulled them from their garden beds.

Fran

Thank you for your input Fran. This seems to work great for you. There are some differences for me as I garden grow and don't container garden. Second, I tried the the easy trudi way on her website. My seeds germinated outside in their slitted containers and once they had only their seed leaves were moved directly to their final garden spot and covered with a plastic water bottle. I mean, this couldn't be easier than all the fuss I used to do with the misting, repotting, watering, fan, in and out on the deck to harden etc. It's tough love vs. coddle. We shall see!

Fran, a bit off topic here but you listed a Purple Cherry.

Many years ago such a variety was oisted in the SSE Yearbook and I grew it and I was not at all impressed with the taste, far from it. Actually it was BAD until the fruits were so ripe they were almost fermenting on the vine and then it was still bad, but less bad than eaten at a ripe but earlier stage. LOL

Purple Cherry is listed by only one person in the 2009 SSE YEarbook and the seed source was Totally Tomatoes, so they must have picked it somewhere.

What is the source of your seeds and what is your general impression of it?

Carolyn

I love the picts, thanks Fran and BigDaddy for sharing how you do your WSing with toms.

This is my experience:

I had always had poor luck sowing early indoors, mostly damping off problems.

About 3 or 4 years ago I inquired on the WS forum if Tomatoes could be WS'd in my zone. Most responders opined NO. So I did it anyway, with slight success (I can't remember germination percentages, but it wasn't too bad). However, the Toms I grew (Black Krim and a couple other heirlooms) were very late to produce (like, late August) and TASTED TERRIBLE!

So for the past couple years, I bought seedlings at a respectable nursery and supplemented with some indoor grown seedlings grown under very strict protocols to get over my damping off problem.

However, every year for the past several, I have also had volunteers in my garden from seeds in store-bought tomatoes that ended up in the compost. Last years' were grape tomatoes. I have saved four such of the strongest volunteers this year to see what they are and how they progress. Note that these volunteers are, essentially, winter-sown tomatoes, their seeds having spent the winter in my compost pile.

I am going to try to WS this coming Winter. What would y'all reccommend for a good starting date indoors in Middle TN? I was thinking mid January maybe. I can always let them grow inside for a bit if I can't place out yet. I want to have maters by July 4th next year! =) I'll probably Winter sow some Sungold, Sweet 100, San Marzano & some other type (slicing mater).

- Steve

Tom,

Germination method has nothing to do with taste of the tomatoes. I don't know why your toms were lousy in taste but that might be enviromental.

Steve,

I'm in zone seven and I WS my toms in the last seasonal month of winter. For me that's usually late February to early March, perhaps that time or a week or two later would do fine for you.

T

Steve, I put my slitted container out on Groundhog day on my deck in a sunny spot and ignored it until I saw sprouts two months later and I transplanted two WS seedlings directly to my garden on April 5 covered with a capless water bottle.

I started my indoor normally planted seeds on march 6 and they went outside permanently on April 25.

Like trudi says you might want to delay your own a week or two as we are both zone 7 and very similar climate.

It's now 9 weeks. The KBX indoor started is still about 1/2 bigger than the WS KBX. First fruit set on the indoor started was 6/18/2009 and that fruit is now the size of a ping pong ball. First fruit set on the WS was today, 6/26/09 and it's tiny of course. Both plants are healthy despite perpetual rain and cloudy days. The WS plant shown is leaning in the pic below and had some minor rabbit damage to a couple lower leaves but no big deal. Next pic in 3 weeks. I hear another thunderstorm fast approaching...:(

Very interesting and I appreciate the pics of your "experiment". I will prob. always sow some under lights, but I think I may start sowing some of these WS method and maybe some other veg. Seems like alot less hassle plus it will provide me with even more room under the lights for other things. I did WS perennials this year and the success was great. I am even thinking that in peat pots inside a plastic container this would be a nice convenient way to get the squash and otehr seeds off to a little earlier start. HMMMMMMMmmmmmmm now I am really thinking about lots of other things. Next year will be so different between my new layout and new planting tricks. Very excited.

Nichol

Well, another 3 weeks has flown by since my last update. Who is stealing my summer so quickly? LOL

It's hard to tell from the pic below but when the warm, sunny weather finally came the WS plant really started catching up to the indoor started. The two plants are growing into each other's cage. The indoor started has reached the top of the 6' tall Texas cage and the WS one is about 12 inches shorter. You can see a little minor leaf spot on the indoor started plant but not a big deal as of today. The WS plant is completely healthy. If you've been reading along you know I have another indoor started and another WS elsewhere in another garden. Well, the other WS plant has a green tom on it the size of the biggest one you see in the pic of the indoor started one. What does this mean? It's too close to call at this point which plant will ripen it's first KBX fruit first, a WS or an indoor started. It's darn close!

BTW, The only varieties here that have ripened any are Sun Gold, Juliet, Jetstar and Big Beef.

Here's the pic I took today:

Judging by the monster OP volunteers that grew out of the compost pile this spring, I'm thinking of sowing seed directly in the compost next spring. Maybe even in the fall in pots filled with compost then buried in the pile.

The accidentally WS'd plants (from last year's castoffs) were bigger and sturdier than the ones that were started indoors, but I'm sure it's because the lawn clippings that were thrown on top were warm or hot, thus causing the surrounding ground to be warm enough to germinate the seeds early. After that, they took right off.

I have wintersown tomato seeds in previous years, in transparent containers with seed starting mix. By early August they were as big the other plants and just as productive.

However, I'm really liking the compost method this year. I'm just not sure the conditions could be consistently recreated to have such success year after year. :-)

I just don't have the room indoors to set up racks and lights, etc. Did that one year and was squeezed pretty tight. It was fun, but not a good use of a small space.

Anyhow, Bigdaddyj, this experiment is interesting and compares with my own limited experience.

Thanks for keeping us informed!!

Carolyn,

I'm sorry I didn't see your post before this, I have not been on the forum for a while.

That was a typo of the purple cherry, it should have read black cherry.

I haven't had a purple cherry tomato since I was a about 12 or 13. My grandfather decided to try a couple of plants on the farm to experiment with.

4 plants where tried and he use us, the grandkids and lovers of all tomatoes, as the taste testers, especially my younger brother.

My brother was known as he "human garbage pail". He ate anything and everything and nothing ever tasted bad to him

UNTIL

The day he tasted the purple cherry tomato. Total shock with his reaction. He spit it out and drank a gallon of water to get rid of the taste.

Grandpa thought the tomato might not have been ripe enough, on the other hand, little brother was known to rip off a green tomato and eat it as if it where an apple.

As you stated, the longer it was on the vine, the worse the taste, almost rancid it was so acidic. We all tasted them with the same reaction as my brother.

Grandpa proceeded to rip out is try of toms and we never saw or tried them again.

I must say, though, it was his only failed attempt at trying new and different tomatoes.

Fran

This is my second year wintersowing tomatoes. They do, for me, produce later that seedlings started inside. Part of that, though, probably has to do with the fact that both years I haven't planted them in larger containers/in the ground until later, because I'm so caught up with other gardining priorities. I think it might work out, though, because my earlier tomatoes will probably start going south at the same time that my wintersown ones start really producing. I'm planning on doing it again next year, probably with more varieties too, and hopefully more organized so I can plant them out earlier.

Lionheart, thanx for sharing that info. Good luck with the compost bin method. Hey, it's worth another try at least, right? :)

You got me thinking. I placed my slitted container on my black Weber grill top. I bet that grill gets hot even in February and March sun. Next year I'll place some on top of the grill and others on the deck to compare.

Homegardener, staggered plant starts are great in a long growing season. I'll let a volunteer or two grow on and you're right, they produce later but it's nice to see in early fall. For my trial I'll be comparing total production, first ripe and disease issues. It may not be the most scientific of studies but it'll be what I can see, touch and study in my own unique growing conditions.

First Ripe results are in! My first ripe from an indoor started plant took 101 days. My first ripe from a WS plant took 103 days. So far my 2 WS have ripened 3 KBX tomatoes. Same as the indoor started. So it's 3 to 3. Not much of an advantage for the indoor started. My last comparison will be total production for the season. So far all 4 plants are holding up very well fighting off diseases. In the pic below you can see the WS plant almost as tall as the normal started next to it. Same holds true with the other two plants not pictured. The WS plants have almost entirely caught up with the non WS plants. It's hard to judge from the pic because we had a huge hail storm with 70 MPH winds about 10 days ago. The plants in the Texas cages got beat down but the Texas cages held firm. My homemade CRW cages were flattened and I had a lot more plant damage with the CRW. I waited too long to supplent the CRW's with a rebar stake. I've never needed extra staking for a Texas cage. In other words, I wish all my cages were Texas! So, only thing left to compare is disease fighting and total production.

Two thumbs up!

Will you be going down to MAGTAG?

Hi Trudi! A couple years ago I doubted WSing tomatoes would be a viable alternative to indoor started. Now I am a believer. I thought WSing would be fine for plants like annual poppies and larkspur but not a warm weather tomato plant. Thanx. We never stop learning...:)

I wanted to go to Magtag for a few years now. If it were closer I could get there. But I coach baseball and weekends are busy. Sometimes two games and sometimes a game and a practice. Plus, my wife and son refuse to go. But one year I shall attend! :)

Totally OT: Here's a pic of a 21" cucumber that weighs almost 2.5 pounds. I got these seeds many years ago from a Chinese guy who said they had been in his family for maybe 500 years. I call them 'Ancient Chinese Cukes'. Tasty, prolific and burpless.

Trudi, I didn't know you were in the Baltimore area! If I can make it, maybe I can bring some seeds there for you instead of mailing them to wintersown?

That would be lovely Jessica, meeting you would be wonderful! I'll be at MAGTAG on Aug 22nd, but after that in DC for the rest of the week. MAGTAG kicks off our vacation.

Hey BigDaddy,

Bless you for the work you do with youths. Coaches are role models, and that you put the kids ahead of hobbies says a lot about you ;-)

But...do you think I could tempt you next year to come out to a tomato event on Long Island? There's really nothing in the tri-state area in way of tomato gatherings. Hubs and I have been talking about doing a tomato festival like MAGTAG or any of the others. If we feel there's sufficient interest we'll start looking at park locations and/or renting a large canopy for an event right here.

Trudi

Trudi I hate the Belt Parkway! LOL Actually Magtag is a lot closer for me but I'm not saying no. I'd really like a Philly or South Jersey event.

Coaching is a lot of fun and keeps me young. I coach basketball in winter and baseball in spring, summer and into fall. I don't know how much of a role model I am for the kids but most seem to like my style. Actually, I've had more problems with some parents than with the players! Some parents think their kid is the next A-Rod and should always bat third and never ever come out of a game. I try and let all my kids play some and for me it isn't about winning until Playoffs start. All in all I still love it...:)